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  1. #21
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I don't agree that religious belief is built into human nature. If I had been raised by wild wolves, it is very unlikely the idea of a deity who sent his son to die for my sins, for example, would ever have occurred to me. Perhaps some elements of religion would have arisen in my mind, such as some kind of vague feeling that there is a higher power, but not necessarily... On the whole, I think religion is like the wheel. It was invented, and its continued existence largely owes itself to culture.

    As for whether secular leftism is a religion or not, I think the answer is no by any normal definition of religion. For one thing, secular humanism is devoid of metaphysics, a key element of every truly religious belief system.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  2. #22
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think you still tend to come back to the two factor definition, an object of devotion, whatever that may be and it could be a God or it could be something else, and then a frame of orientation for values etc.

    I'm not sure that religion, or for the sake of this argument its equivalents, is necessarily altruistic, opposed to materialism or avarice. I've seen some great examples where it is positively avaricious, varieties of tele-evangelism or so called "prosperity gospel" for instance. Darren Brown is the most recent author I've read that wrote about it.
    I was thinking of that but, I think that's largely due to the surrounding culture influencing the religion. Prosperity gospel is certainly a very odd interpretation of religious texts for a form of religion that is supposedly "fundamentalist." I wouldn't necessarily argue that religious texts don't contain anything off-putting to modern eyes, but they certainly don't say things like prosperity gospel, unless if read very selectively. It's a case of religious terminology being used to fuel the id, for sure. People naturally want more than they have, so they gravitate to something that says they can get those things just by believing. People figured out that it was a good way to get rich by selling them that. In that sense, prosperity gospel is definitely true, for the people who preach it.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  3. #23
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    If religion wasn't human nature, then why did every early human culture have some form of religious practice at some point in their existence, regardless of outside influence? Why does spirituality exist as a concept so naturally? Why does the decrease in spirituality, always lead to an increase of nihilism and dissatisfaction with life?
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
    Likes anticlimatic liked this post

  4. #24
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris View Post
    People who are on the Left side of politics, generally see religion as archaic and or harmful to society. Meaning the majority are either agnostic or atheist.

    You are also only looking at Religion from a single angle. There is far more to religion than just belief in a god. It is a way of life. Leftists also have a way of life, and it tends to mirror religion quite well. They hold beliefs that they deem absolute, despite the fact very few things are absolute, as they do not question their "god". Just like Christians take the bible as law.

    Take Identity politics that some practice for an example of "doctrine" It is accepted as fact by many, and that all should abide by it. If they do not, they are evil racist bigots and must be purged, shunned, or exiled socially and sometimes physically. Calling everything a Nazi, is like saying things are the Devil. The same irrational intolerance that you see devout religious people do, is seen in some Leftist who do not get their way. Then to top it off, they preach that they are the good guys and they are trying to help everyone, and the world. That if everyone was the same as them, the world will become a utopia.
    The right sees this exactly the same. Many on the right also feel the US would be better off governed by Christian biblical premises (see U.S. Taxpayers Party), never mind that whole first amendment thing and they appear to be succeeding in some places. The right also does identity politics but if your Nazi comment mean fascist movements in the US and worldwide are simply a figment of the left, I don't know what to tell you. You should really aim your intolerance comments at liberals and centrists though, they're far less likely to modify their views or listen to anything from the left or the right.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    The right sees this exactly the same. Many on the right also feel the US would be better off governed by Christian biblical premises (see U.S. Taxpayers Party), never mind that whole first amendment thing and they appear to be succeeding in some places. The right also does identity politics but if your Nazi comment mean fascist movements in the US and worldwide are simply a figment of the left, I don't know what to tell you. You should really aim your intolerance comments at liberals and centrists though, they're far less likely to modify their views or listen to anything from the left or the right.
    I think that sort of thing is crazy because I've struggled to discover a single "bible christianity" regardless of what any of the professedly "bible christians" have said about it, let alone anything at all which would suggest single policies with regard to the economy, domestic, foreign policy etc.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    I was thinking of that but, I think that's largely due to the surrounding culture influencing the religion. Prosperity gospel is certainly a very odd interpretation of religious texts for a form of religion that is supposedly "fundamentalist." I wouldn't necessarily argue that religious texts don't contain anything off-putting to modern eyes, but they certainly don't say things like prosperity gospel, unless if read very selectively. It's a case of religious terminology being used to fuel the id, for sure. People naturally want more than they have, so they gravitate to something that says they can get those things just by believing. People figured out that it was a good way to get rich by selling them that. In that sense, prosperity gospel is definitely true, for the people who preach it.
    I reckon the law of attraction, think and grow rich, positive thinking all of it springs from the same place as that sort of evangelism.

  7. #27
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    The right sees this exactly the same. Many on the right also feel the US would be better off governed by Christian biblical premises (see U.S. Taxpayers Party), never mind that whole first amendment thing and they appear to be succeeding in some places. The right also does identity politics but if your Nazi comment mean fascist movements in the US and worldwide are simply a figment of the left, I don't know what to tell you. You should really aim your intolerance comments at liberals and centrists though, they're far less likely to modify their views or listen to anything from the left or the right.
    I never said they were not the same. My point was is that all people are the same, regardless of the side they are on. Religious, or not religious. The superficial lines we divide ourselves by, while prostraiting ourselves before our ideals, and throwing ourselves on the swords of our conviction, they are the same behaviors. They are human nature, and it is inescapable. A lot of people are aware of this, but few offer solutions. Then those solutions that are offered get caught up and contaminated by the same nature they are trying to prevent. I personally think society will collapse eventualky, while others think they are fighting for a utopia.

    I once seen it said, that the real difference between the Right and the Left, is nomian philosophy. Or the belief in law. The Left are determined to deal case by case, the right want equal application by law. The left only like laws that agree with them, and rebel against those that do not. The right want enforcement and consistantsy in contrast.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

  8. #28
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris
    If religion wasn't human nature, then why did every early human culture have some form of religious practice at some point in their existence, regardless of outside influence? Why does spirituality exist as a concept so naturally?
    Fire has been invented and utilized extensively by nearly every human culture. But fire is not intrinsic to human nature. It's just an easy thing to invent, and has a great deal of practical value. So it is with religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris
    Why does the decrease in spirituality, always lead to an increase of nihilism and dissatisfaction with life?
    It doesn't. I don't currently consider myself specifically non-religious, but when I became a strong atheist for a time, I felt greatly relieved because of it, continued to have as much of a value system as ever, and was not at all dissatisfied with life on its account.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  9. #29
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I reckon the law of attraction, think and grow rich, positive thinking all of it springs from the same place as that sort of evangelism.
    Oh, unquestionably.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    Woah there, Hoss. I'm not 'making' any definitions. If you want to just turn a blind eye to the bulk of the word's potential meaning, that's on you. If a 1978 Lincoln Continental drives past and someone shots "Woah, look at that BOAT!" I'm not going to scan the horizon for water like some kind of cartoon caricature INTJ.
    You acknowledged several posts back that you were not operating on the common definition of religion as involving a supreme/spiritual being/entity. You did the responsible thing by making that clear, but that doesn't change what it is.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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