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  1. #11
    𝕯ყ๓คჯιơŋ Luminous's Avatar
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    One can be an atheist Buddhist. Or belong to the Universalist Unitarians and be an atheist. So no, no belief in gods is necessary to belong to a religion.
    ✦ᏖᏒᎥᎮ ค ℓιɬɬℓɛ Ꮭıɠɧɬ ʄคŋɬคʂɬıƈ✦ -: ✦ :- ƒ O ᖇ G E ᗪ I ᑎ ƒ I ᖇ E ❋-: ✦ :-★ᴅᴏɴ'ᴛ ꜰᴇᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴇʟꜱ★
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  2. #12
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What do you mean by "secular leftism"? I see religion at root as belief in some supreme being/deity/super-natural force, something beyond the physical world. Does your secular leftism include that? If not, I would not consider it religion. Ideology to be sure, perhaps philosophy.
    People who are on the Left side of politics, generally see religion as archaic and or harmful to society. Meaning the majority are either agnostic or atheist.

    You are also only looking at Religion from a single angle. There is far more to religion than just belief in a god. It is a way of life. Leftists also have a way of life, and it tends to mirror religion quite well. They hold beliefs that they deem absolute, despite the fact very few things are absolute, as they do not question their "god". Just like Christians take the bible as law.

    Take Identity politics that some practice for an example of "doctrine" It is accepted as fact by many, and that all should abide by it. If they do not, they are evil racist bigots and must be purged, shunned, or exiled socially and sometimes physically. Calling everything a Nazi, is like saying things are the Devil. The same irrational intolerance that you see devout religious people do, is seen in some Leftist who do not get their way. Then to top it off, they preach that they are the good guys and they are trying to help everyone, and the world. That if everyone was the same as them, the world will become a utopia.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
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  3. #13
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    It might be. So what? Everyone is motivated by things other than rationality. Rationality isn't a motivation, it's more of a method. The existence of God isn't even falsifiable, and the same goes for the absence of God.

    I mean, I don't think it's necessarily awful that people have a value system based upon things other than merely acquiring profits, whether that value system is based on a secular foundation or not. I generally think it's desirable to strive for people to strive for something better than the exclusive fulfillment of pure id.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  4. #14
    Shadow Sovereign Sung Jin-Woo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    It might be. So what? Everyone is motivated by things other than rationality. Rationality isn't a motivation, it's more of a method. The existence of God isn't even falsifiable, and the same goes for the absence of God.

    I mean, I don't think it's necessarily awful that people have a value system based upon things other than merely acquiring profits, whether that value system is based on a secular foundation or not. I generally think it's desirable to strive for people to strive for something better than the exclusive fulfillment of pure id.
    I agree with this a lot. You don't need religion to be moral or possess a value system, but I do think people naturally take sides and eventually get caught up in group think due to things like "socially acceptable" and peer pressure.

    Which is why I think adopting a life style, that fills this natural tendency that generally results in religious like thinking, to be required in society. Buddhism is a good example, but it is too extreme to be practical in some ways. Christianity struggles to keep up with time. Hell, I think Satanism is actually really decent, with the times, and is similar to Buddhism in many ways. But there cannot be "nothing", or something will take its place.
    “No matter how much we ask after the truth, self-awareness is often unpleasant. We do not feel kindly toward the Truthsayer.”
    ― Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune

  5. #15
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris View Post
    People who are on the Left side of politics, generally see religion as archaic and or harmful to society. Meaning the majority are either agnostic or atheist.

    You are also only looking at Religion from a single angle. There is far more to religion than just belief in a god. It is a way of life. Leftists also have a way of life, and it tends to mirror religion quite well. They hold beliefs that they deem absolute, despite the fact very few things are absolute, as they do not question their "god". Just like Christians take the bible as law.
    You are mixing up a few things here. First, what people on the left end of the political spectrum think of religion (a huge generalization right there) is quite different from viewing left-oriented politics as a religion itself. Second, something can be a way of life without being a religion. Wherein lies the distinction? I still view it as whether something deific or supernatural is included. Individuals like @anticlimatic are welcome to make and use their own definitions, I just don't find this one especially useful. Third, accepting and following a set of principles "absolutely" or without question is hardly confined to left-leaning folks, nor religious world views/practices.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    It might be. So what? Everyone is motivated by things other than rationality. Rationality isn't a motivation, it's more of a method. The existence of God isn't even falsifiable, and the same goes for the absence of God.

    I mean, I don't think it's necessarily awful that people have a value system based upon things other than merely acquiring profits, whether that value system is based on a secular foundation or not. I generally think it's desirable to strive for people to strive for something better than the exclusive fulfillment of pure id.
    I think you still tend to come back to the two factor definition, an object of devotion, whatever that may be and it could be a God or it could be something else, and then a frame of orientation for values etc.

    I'm not sure that religion, or for the sake of this argument its equivalents, is necessarily altruistic, opposed to materialism or avarice. I've seen some great examples where it is positively avaricious, varieties of tele-evangelism or so called "prosperity gospel" for instance. Darren Brown is the most recent author I've read that wrote about it.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebris View Post
    People who are on the Left side of politics, generally see religion as archaic and or harmful to society. Meaning the majority are either agnostic or atheist.

    You are also only looking at Religion from a single angle. There is far more to religion than just belief in a god. It is a way of life. Leftists also have a way of life, and it tends to mirror religion quite well. They hold beliefs that they deem absolute, despite the fact very few things are absolute, as they do not question their "god". Just like Christians take the bible as law.

    Take Identity politics that some practice for an example of "doctrine" It is accepted as fact by many, and that all should abide by it. If they do not, they are evil racist bigots and must be purged, shunned, or exiled socially and sometimes physically. Calling everything a Nazi, is like saying things are the Devil. The same irrational intolerance that you see devout religious people do, is seen in some Leftist who do not get their way. Then to top it off, they preach that they are the good guys and they are trying to help everyone, and the world. That if everyone was the same as them, the world will become a utopia.
    What about liberation theology? MLK, Malcolm X, many others I can think of, where all religious.

    Some might say that the excising of religion from left wing thinking has been one of the more successful acts of sabotage and self-sabotage its possible to witness.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous View Post
    One can be an atheist Buddhist. Or belong to the Universalist Unitarians and be an atheist. So no, no belief in gods is necessary to belong to a religion.
    Yeah, I read a lot of interesting things lately about the rise of "cultural" affiliations to "creed communities", its a strange thing to me in some respects and I know that leaders of my own faith community have condemned the "a la carte" perspective towards religion but there does seem to be some communities that its not an issue being a believer and an atheist.

    I think the bigger question is about the private and public spheres, private conscience and public rules, strictures, whether or not believers and non-believers alike will be expected to abide by binding rules arising from the strictures of belief.

    The principle experience of the western world has been about this, largely, when it comes to matters of religion. A lot of the whole ditching the baby with the bathwater approach towards tradition, including religion, in favour of innovation or simply making things up as you go along with the best intentions, loses sight of all that.

    So superficially I think it can appear like liberalism, and I'll say liberalism rather than socialism or communism or this vaguery that's popular with the far right "leftism", is repeating the mistakes of historical religion.

  9. #19
    Velvet Darkness magnetica's Avatar
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    Ideological apparatus are not religious tenets. Their form or context can change in time while religious tenets are by nature dogmatic. The concept of privilege is much more flexible compared to the definition of the original sin. This whole thread seems like a poor attempt to bash at leftists who criticize religion by the use of a subtext claiming that they have formed their own set of dogmas while criticizing religion.

    Also secular leftism is a huge umbrella. While it contains the "social liberalism" that you are trying to bash, it also contains Marxism, Stalinism, Federalism and hell, even Anarcho-Socialism.

    Do your homework.
    "The pansy at my feet
    Doth the same tale repeat:
    Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
    Where is it now, the glory and the dream?"



    ex Glados.
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  10. #20
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    It might be. So what?
    I don't have a negative view of religion, but at least Christians recognize what they are in. This bizarre 'that's not the definition I prefer' push-back against something that would be patently obvious to a first year junior anthropologist is more telling to me of how indirectly self loathing and self-unaware some people are (which I suppose is another hallmark of most religions). If I were interested in making a judgement on the value of religion (which I wasn't initially), it wouldn't be that leftists are religious and that's bad- but that leftists are religious, so maybe people of other religions aren't so bad or different from them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Individuals like @anticlimatic are welcome to make and use their own definitions, I just don't find this one especially useful.
    Woah there, Hoss. I'm not 'making' any definitions. If you want to just turn a blind eye to the bulk of the word's potential meaning, that's on you. If a 1978 Lincoln Continental drives past and someone shots "Woah, look at that BOAT!" I'm not going to scan the horizon for water like some kind of cartoon caricature INTJ.

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