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  1. #131
    heartland values Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    Bertrand Russell would talk about there being protestant or roman catholic atheists when he wrote on the topic of atheism and I'd say its still relevant even if secularism may not mean atheism per se but just keeping your religion private or accepting/valuing pluralism. .

    Russell said that? I've thought the same thing. I've noticed that the loudest and fervent atheists, for instance, are often ex-evangelical fundamentalists.
    A path is made by walking on it.

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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    Russell said that? I've thought the same thing. I've noticed that the loudest and fervent atheists, for instance, are often ex-evangelical fundamentalists.
    Ha! yeah, I've definitely noticed that myself, Victor Frankl talked about an idea about spirituality being a drive and its repression being an issue for some people, I tend to think that the repression of spirituality is a feature in both evangelism, of whatever sort, and sometimes zealotry remains part of the underlying character structure when it former channel of its abandoned.

    Russell's ideas are a little different because he lived long before the kinds of evangelism that still linger only in the US (some quarters in NI are busy trying to import it from the US though).

    I think he talks about generosity and parsimony which were associated with the different communities at the time, there used to be many more religious writers back then, CS Lewis (former atheist), Hilarie Belloc and GK Chesterton (both catholics), Orwell even wrote about them people popular as one of competing political ideologies between the wars.

  3. #133
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    The New Religion Of The Woke Left Is A Faith Without Atonement

    Much has been made of how the “woke” left’s political program resembles a new religion. Columbia University linguist John McWhorter made the point in his discussion with evolutionary biologist Bret Weinstein, James Lindsay describes how “wokeness” resembles a cult, and Hans Fiene wrote a satirical article in The Federalist describing the religious program in the “Cathedral of Blessed Wokery.”

    The woke Left’s program does seem to resemble a religion. This should not, however, be all that surprising to us. Jonathan Haidt points out how humans use sacred ideas, rituals, and symbols as unifying forces that allow us to participate in large scale societies. Most non-insect social creatures participate in small social networks of very close kin. Insects such as bees may have large scale societies, but they’re all essentially siblings and share a very high percentage of genetic material.

    So, how is the Woke Left similar to a religion? Well, even without a supernatural element, it has all the trappings of one. It has a core set of beliefs that you cannot question and remain in the tribe with myths that aren’t subjected to normal academic scrutiny (the 1619 Project); it has sacred texts (White Fragility), its idea of original sin (being born white and/or male), rituals (including self-flagellation), symbols, heretics (hello, JK Rowling), and de facto priests and prophets to enlighten and then initiate us into this new religion. All will be shown a new way of viewing everything about the world, and we must adopt this without caveats or questions.

  4. #134
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    What holds true of religions holds true for faith in its secular form... ideas... deteriorate... once they are not based upon the productive experience of each individual - Eric Fromm, Man For Himself, Faith as a Character Trait, Problems of Humanistic Ethics.

  5. #135
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    I'm not sure how much the so called woke left actually exists and how much of it is a bogey or figment of the right wing's imagination.

    The fact that some people conform well to the stereotypes of that bogey comes as no surprise, we live in a highly conservative society and conservatives are able to define opposition, often in ways that the same opposition will then accept as actually true about themselves.

  6. #136
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    I've heard of Dispensational Premillennialism but I had not seen it applied in this way. Fox News overdoses have it just as much as MSNBC does.

    When the news becomes religion - Columbia Journalism Review

    QAnon does this in a manner that is startlingly similar to a news-obsessed strain of Christian theology called premillennial dispensationalism, which takes metaphorical passages in the Bible and tries to decode them into both individual prophecies that refer directly to current events, as well as a larger meta-prophecy ending in the Rapture of believers to heaven, the coming of the Antichrist, and the battle of Armageddon.

    “QAnon is always sucking in new things that have happened,” says Will Sommer, a reporter for the Daily Beast who covers the far right. “There was a weird light a couple of years ago off the coast of Oregon, and people were like, ‘Oh, that was a missile trying to take down Air Force One as Trump flew to North Korea.’ ”
    Dispensational Premillennialism: The Dispensationalist Era
    | Christian History | Christianity Today


    Unfortunately, the conservative right seems to be more prone to falling victim to these conspiracies like QAnon but crossed with Omega Kingdom Ministry charismatic Christianity, it appears even more attractive to a group already mixing religion into their politics for many years. I have yet to find a leftist QAnon subscriber but I know a couple moderate liberals that are pretty deep in it, including the religious aspect.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I've heard of Dispensational Premillennialism but I had not seen it applied in this way. Fox News overdoses have it just as much as MSNBC does.

    When the news becomes religion - Columbia Journalism Review



    Dispensational Premillennialism: The Dispensationalist Era
    | Christian History | Christianity Today


    Unfortunately, the conservative right seems to be more prone to falling victim to these conspiracies like QAnon but crossed with Omega Kingdom Ministry charismatic Christianity, it appears even more attractive to a group already mixing religion into their politics for many years. I have yet to find a leftist QAnon subscriber but I know a couple moderate liberals that are pretty deep in it, including the religious aspect.
    To be honest, whether liberals and conservatives choose to follow the faux messiah that QAnon is or not I think that, in the US particularly, the strength of (often unconscious or repressed) religiosity couldnt be in doubt.

    Like the evangelical character of religion is what's important, all the developments form the days of just before the Carter administration, with stadium christianity, rise of tele-evangelism and evangelism per se.

    Both US conservatism and liberalism are evangelical, they want to make converts, they want people to engage in "born again" like switch ups or discoveries of convictions which they will then be compelled to spread to others and associate/disassociate on that basis.

    Its also all opinions, as in what you are thinking or feeling, there is not a terrible amount of quiet, private, compliance with a set of moral/ethical codes of conduct for the better of the self or others. Its all about I think this. Everyone should think this too. I'm going to cry it from the roof tops.

    Like the strong, strong dislike I've got of most LBGT liberals and reactionary conservatives is that they really, really remind me of a certain kind of street preacher manic personality type.

  8. #138
    Turmoil Dareyth's Avatar
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    I've already replied, but yes. If you can't see it, it is because you are designed that way. It is long speak for supporting anything these days.
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  9. #139
    Senior Member Burner's Avatar
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    Forget about the merits or demerits of "woke" culture for a second. If the argument for secular leftism being a religion is its having dogmatic, unalterable beliefs (a premise I'll accept for argument's sake), then by that standard, how many institutions, organizations, ideologies, belief sets can be classified as "religion"? At that point, religion seems to lose any meaningful sense of the word. Groupthink is largely a negative for any society that values the free exchange and debate of ideas, but to conflate or term any subset of people engaged in groupthink as a "religion" is silly.

    Also, define secular leftism. If your criticism of secular leftism is its adherence to "woke" ideology, I have to ask what do you think secular leftism is? Furthermore, "leftism" encompasses a wide swath of ideologies and worldviews? If you're calling it a religion, do you believe it to be a monolith? I don't think Bill Maher, for example, or Richard Dawkins would identify with the "woke" crowd, and they're just as much secular and just as much leftist. I don't think Bernie Sanders can be identified strongly with, idk, the Congress Party in India and both are secular and left-wing (the latter perhaps in name now only).

    Just to be clear: I'm not denying certain issues brought up in this thread (I'm irritated with celebrity "woke"-ness, for example; it's quite riddled with hypocrisy). As someone who identifies with left-wing beliefs, I acknowledge the presence of group-think and performativeness on many swaths of our side. It's something we should be cognizant of; I'm just questioning where do you draw the line at calling something a religion? There are elements in religion that are common to human institutions as a whole; you can't go around and unironically call everything with some sort of consensus beliefs a religion.
    "Am I about dollars or about change?
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  10. #140
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burner View Post
    Forget about the merits or demerits of "woke" culture for a second. If the argument for secular leftism being a religion is its having dogmatic, unalterable beliefs (a premise I'll accept for argument's sake), then by that standard, how many institutions, organizations, ideologies, belief sets can be classified as "religion"? At that point, religion seems to lose any meaningful sense of the word. Groupthink is largely a negative for any society that values the free exchange and debate of ideas, but to conflate or term any subset of people engaged in groupthink as a "religion" is silly. Also, define secular leftism. If your criticism of secular leftism is its adherence to "woke" ideology, I have to ask what do you think secular leftism is? Furthermore, "leftism" encompasses a wide swath of ideologies and worldviews? If you're calling it a religion, do you believe it to be a monolith? I don't think Bill Maher, for example, or Richard Dawkins would identify with the "woke" crowd, and they're just as much secular and just as much leftist. I don't think Bernie Sanders can be identified strongly with, idk, the Congress Party in India and both are secular and left-wing (the latter perhaps in name now only). Just to be clear: I'm not denying certain issues brought up in this thread (I'm irritated with celebrity "woke"-ness, for example; it's quite riddled with hypocrisy). As someone who identifies with left-wing beliefs, I acknowledge the presence of group-think and performativeness on many swaths of our side. It's something we should be cognizant of; I'm just questioning where do you draw the line at calling something a religion? There are elements in religion that are common to human institutions as a whole; you can't go around and unironically call everything with some sort of consensus beliefs a religion.
    Nice post!

    I mostly made this thread for fun before the George Floyd thing got other people talking about it seriously, because as a Ti dom I'm an isomorphic thinker that has dealt with a lot of Christian types and really-into-politics types and noticed a metaphorical overlap in a lot of their language.


    To graduate from ideology to religion there's a few benchmarks that need to be met I think. It has to be about unanswerable elements of the human condition. It needs an obsession with a contested history that someone wrote in a book. It needs leaps of faith to bridge data points. It needs a signature set of moral principals. It needs to constantly rehash and analyze its own perceived history. And it needs subjugation to some kind of higher power or cause.
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