Meditation

[ring the bell]

I spend a considerable amount of time introspecting when I'm home alone. I've always been told that meditation can take a person to great heights if you allow it. I've been wondering how different types approach the subject, i.e. do some view it as a bunch of bologna while others are more capable of reaching heightened levels of spirituality.

I'm interested in hearing how people's experiences with meditation have affected their lives as well. I'm very open to delving in a bit further, but am very inexperienced.

 

[Mole]

I spend a considerable amount of time introspecting when I'm home alone. I've always been told that meditation can take a person to great heights if you allow it. I've been wondering how different types approach the subject, i.e. do some view it as a bunch of bologna while others are more capable of reaching heightened levels of spirituality.

I'm interested in hearing how people's experiences with meditation have affected their lives as well. I'm very open to delving in a bit further, but am very inexperienced.

If you start with The Trance Institute , you will have an intellectual framework on which to put your new experiences.

Also you will be forewarned of traps and misapprehensions.

And you have the best beginning - the beginner's mind.

 

[Journey]

I would caution you to beware of any system of meditation that requires you to completely empty your mind. Meditation by definition is pondering. It is actively using your mind to focus on a subject. It doesn't require that you ever empty your mind.

 

[Mole]

I would caution you to beware of any system of meditation that requires you to completely empty your mind. Meditation by definition is pondering. It is actively using your mind to focus on a subject. It doesn't require that you ever empty your mind.

Christians have been meditating for two thousand years. And I would be very surprised if they defined meditation as pondering.

My guess is that Journey is prejudiced against meditation because she pushes a very narrow interpretation of Christianity.

 

[Journey]

Victor, far from being prejudiced against medidation I practice it daily. I just caution against it including emptying the mind. The mind isn't meant to be empty. It is meant to be active, IMHO.

 

[Eldanen]

Journey, I also disagree with you. Trance is a natural state of mind that we go through when doing various tasks and having a narrowed state of consciousness can be beneficial in some ways. I believe it's been shown that in various altered states, subconscious emotional baggage can be simply "dissolved" and done away with. That's not something negative. Why would you say that the mind isn't meant to be empty?

I remember speaking to a Christian friend of mine once about meditation. He had the idea that the devil would start inserting stuff into your brain if you held it empty. It's true that trance states can leave you more susceptible. But most of us don't walk around in a trance state all day long. Understanding how these states of mind work can give us access to greater degrees of creativity. There's something called "Image Streaming" which I've practiced before, and I sensed that it is capable of putting one in an altered state of consciousness. After practicing speaking out freeflowing thought, I noticed that my mind had calmed down a lot as I got caught up so much in externalizing the experience. It was truly eye-opening. And while this doesn't directly relate to the empty-mind state, it still shows I believe some beneficial relation in all altered states.

Besides, we all go through this empty-mind state every time we drift off to sleep.

I have an electronic device that can induce some altered states of consciousness using microamps of electricity on certain frequencies going into the brain through little ear clips. The 7.83 Hz setting is /amazing/. It's as if I view the world anew.

I believe there was one Christian mystic who practiced the no-mind state of consciousness called Jeanne Guyon. There's an entire line of people following her teachings including Quakers.

 

[Mole]

Victor, far from being prejudiced against medidation I practice it daily. I just caution against it including emptying the mind. The mind isn't meant to be empty. It is meant to be active, IMHO.

Well, the mind is meant to be active and it is also meant to rest.

And to rest the mind is certainly part of meditation. In particular we rest the cognitive faculties when we meditate.

And I can personally recommend that moment in meditation when all thought, including self talk, stops.

And I can also recommend that moment when thought and self talk begins again.

Indeed I might say meditation consists of learning to move gracefully between thought and no thoughts at all.

Meditation is quite like a dance where you dance on one foot of thought, followed by the other foot of no thought.

At first it is awkward like learning any new skill, but after a while you become graceful. Or as Journey might like to say, "Full of grace".

 

[Journey]

I won't put words in your mouth, if you won't put words in mine, Victor.

 

[Journey]

Journey, I also disagree with you. Trance is a natural state of mind that we go through when doing various tasks and having a narrowed state of consciousness can be beneficial in some ways. I believe it's been shown that in various altered states, subconscious emotional baggage can be simply "dissolved" and done away with. That's not something negative. Why would you say that the mind isn't meant to be empty?

I remember speaking to a Christian friend of mine once about meditation. He had the idea that the devil would start inserting stuff into your brain if you held it empty. It's true that trance states can leave you more susceptible. But most of us don't walk around in a trance state all day long. Understanding how these states of mind work can give us access to greater degrees of creativity. There's something called "Image Streaming" which I've practiced before, and I sensed that it is capable of putting one in an altered state of consciousness. After practicing speaking out freeflowing thought, I noticed that my mind had calmed down a lot as I got caught up so much in externalizing the experience. It was truly eye-opening. And while this doesn't directly relate to the empty-mind state, it still shows I believe some beneficial relation in all altered states.

Besides, we all go through this empty-mind state every time we drift off to sleep.

I have an electronic device that can induce some altered states of consciousness using microamps of electricity on certain frequencies going into the brain through little ear clips. The 7.83 Hz setting is /amazing/. It's as if I view the world anew.

I believe there was one Christian mystic who practiced the no-mind state of consciousness called Jeanne Guyon. There's an entire line of people following her teachings including Quakers.

The risks outweigh the benefits to me.

 

[Eldanen]

The risks outweigh the benefits to me.

Well, the risks are present during the meditation session. But during the session, you're usually not exposed to any external stimuli either. What exactly are the risks? Also, there's highway hypnosis, where you drive from point A to point B but don't remember much in between .

 

[Mole]

I won't put words in your mouth, if you won't put words in mine, Victor.

I can't promise Journey. I find that when I get to know someone, I can imitate them very easily. So who knows, there might be two Journeys here before long.

And don't be so quick to ask, as I write some pretty good dialogue.

 

[Mole]

The risks outweigh the benefits to me.

There is a risk. So it is very important to know what the risk is. And when you know, it is easy to minimise the risk.

Also perhaps you are not aware but there is a world wide movement of Christian meditation. I have met them on one or two occasions and they seem to me to be of a high quality.

Perhaps you might like to join your fellow Christian meditators.

 

[Journey]

Well, the risks are present during the meditation session. But during the session, you're usually not exposed to any external stimuli either. What exactly are the risks? Also, there's highway hypnosis, where you drive from point A to point B but don't remember much in between .

Dissociation is not an emptying of the mind, it is simply not being aware of what the mind is engaged in at the time. For proof of this, you really were engaged in steering the car, whether you were aware of it or not. Totally different from an emptying of the mind. (More serious cases of dissociation are considered a disorder or disease state by the DSM IV.)

 

[Mole]

Dissociation is not an emptying of the mind, it is simply not being aware of what the mind is engaged in at the time. For proof of this, you really were engaged in steering the car, whether you were aware of it or not. Totally different from an emptying of the mind. (More serious cases of dissociation are considered a disorder or disease state by the DSM IV.)

Surely you are not suggesting that meditation is a disease or or a disorder.

Meditation is intrinsic to many religions including Christianity.

And today meditation is also practised outside of a religious context.

And of course like anything else, meditation has a good side and a bad side.

It seems to me that you are cutting yourself off from your own tradition of Christian meditation.

And it seems to me that you are doing it in a kind of panic.

So meditation for you might be the movement between panic and calm.

 

[Mole]

Meditation is essentially about movement - and of course, inner movement.

It is about moving from thought to no thought and back again. And it is also about moving between emotions.

If you try to watch your thoughts or emotions as an independent observer, you are not meditating.

God can watch your thoughts and emotions as an independent observer. And some of us want to be so good, so we want to be God - but this is a mistake.

Thank God we can let God be God so we can be ourselves.

And we are contingent beings. And being contingent, nothing lasts forever.

However we can learn to hang on and let go, and hang on and let go and so on. We can learn to dance each contingent step.

We can learn to dance between having and letting go with good grace.

Meditation is simply good grace.

The grace of contingent beings.

 

[Journey]

Victor, I sometimes fail to follow your reasoning. Sometimes I think you are not reasoning. I told you that I meditate daily, or almost daily (nobody does anything perfectly.) It does not involve emptying my mind. And no, I don't believe that emptying the mind is a disease or disordered state (where do you get these ideas?) just that it is unwise. I find no profit in responding to you anymore.

 

[Mole]

Victor, I sometimes fail to follow your reasoning. Sometimes I think you are not reasoning. I told you that I meditate daily, or almost daily (nobody does anything perfectly.) It does not involve emptying my mind. And no, I don't believe that emptying the mind is a disease or disordered state (where do you get these ideas?) just that it is unwise. I find no profit in responding to you anymore.

Of course I am not reasoning - I am trying to persuade.

And what you are doing is not meditating - you are engaged in thinking - you think about something.

So at best you are contemplating.

 

[Journey]

Victor, against my better judgement I will respond to you this last time.

Were you aware that the definition of meditation IS to engage in contemplation or reflection; to focus one's thoughts on; to reflect on or to ponder over; to plan or project in the mind: INTEND , PURPOSE??

(I do include in my meditation being aware to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit which I cannot explain to you.)

Types of meditation that empty the mind are whole other things than regular meditation. If one of those are what you are talking about you should be more specific as to the type of meditation you are talking about.

I have been clear about the type of meditation that I do. My only intent here was to caution about the emptying of the mind, that it was unwise. I have done that three times now. I am throroughly finished here. :hi:

 

[Mole]

Victor, against my better judgement I will respond to you this last time.

Were you aware that the definition of meditation IS to engage in contemplation or reflection; to focus one's thoughts on; to reflect on or to ponder over; to plan or project in the mind: INTEND , PURPOSE??

(I do include in my meditation being aware to listen for the voice of the Holy Spirit which I cannot explain to you.)

Types of meditation that empty the mind are whole other things than regular meditation. If one of those are what you are talking about you should be more specific as to the type of meditation you are talking about.

I have been clear about the type of meditation that I do. My only intent here was to caution about the emptying of the mind, that it was unwise. I have done that three times now. I am throroughly finished here. :hi:

I take my cue from, "The Cloud of Unknowing", by Anonymous.

It does take courage for we are all afraid of the unknown.

But the reward is surprise - everything comes as a surprise.

And life becomes a surprise party.

And naturally this is not something we can know in advance.


You can find an Introduction at -
The Cloud of Unknowing: Introduction

And on Wikipedia at -
The Cloud of Unknowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here is, "The Cloud of Unknowing", itself -
The Cloud of Unknowing

And here is, "The Cloud of Unknowing", in more modern English -
Cloud of Unknowing | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Journey]

One last reply. I know whereof I speak. I was doing Transendental Meditation most probably before you were born, Victor. It is not something to be fooled around with (or you are a fool).