Is abortion morally justified and if so until what time?

[I Tonya]

What is your opinion and what is it based on?

First off, everyone has a difficult situation and therefore judging would be imbecile move. Maybe I do find the greatest influence to be society in general, but that's not the subject right now.

It's hard to have morality in abortion. For it to hold moral stance, human life has to hold value and for the most part it doesn't that much. Eh, before I say it doesn't matter if girls get abortion or not, there's a few things I believe need to be in place.
-Going off 'Women rights are human rights,' baby rights are also human rights.
-I think men should have consent since it is their biological child as well.
-I don't know how girls of a young age can get an abortion, when we don't let them drink alcohol til they 21.
-I know a lot of them argue abortion is better than not being able to provide for their kid at a young age, we should have community housing for young moms with kids. Maybe discounts or something for daycare, idk just throwing out ideas.
-Letting them actually have kids might help with generations learning lessons, valuing safe sex OR just give more value to sex. Not bash or create humiliation, but coming from a mature stance I don't see the point of kids under 18 having sex (which would take a lot of work for society to even think like that or change).
-Overall, I think there should be more studies and statistics explaining the root causes.

 

[EcK]

I just wanted to add a little current event as a piece of exposition on the topic. She didn't specifically murder it, she just abandoned it alive somewhere. Since roe v wade was ethically and legally based on older no trespassing laws, I feel like it should be able to be used to get this woman off the hook- which essentially binds abortion and infanticide to the same ethical level. It's easy to bind infanticide to any other form of murder, and further in the reverse direction all the way to conception- so the only logical form of ethical abortion is no abortion at all.

The only thing I disagree with you on is the idea that the only important part of a person is their brain.

fair enough. I wasn't really going for the legal argument. I generally find the law often has little to do with coherent ethics and I wouldn't consider it as a sound base for one's morals, merely a rule book to avoid getting bullied by the state that happens to have some relation to ethics via cultural hosmosis.

From what I know of Roe V Wade - it's based on the notion that abortion is somehow related to the right to privacy. That's an idiotic stretch. "the right to be let alone/right to personal autonomy" could just as well be applied to the fetus. Furthermore the right to privacy has to do with violations of the privacy of individuals. It is not a moral argument at all - it is merely a legal one in which the fetus has no legal protection and is therefore not an individual benefitting from legal protection as he or she doesn't have a birth certificate so that the only 'privacy' that could legally be 'harmed' is that of the documented person : the mother. If i can figure that out in 2 minutes (and I'm French) I doubt that the rest of the Roe V Wade argument holds much water either.

 

[Jaguar]

you're not making any sense and getting overly emotional.

Laughing at you isn't something I'd call emotional. But suit yourself.

 

[EcK]

In the end the bottom line is that I just don't care. I have my own life and things to worry about and I apply my morals to my life only.

If so would you find it morally justified if you were murdered by someone whose moral code allows or encourages it?

I'm not about to police the rest of the world. Allowing abortion isn't sending life into chaos, banning it would leave a lot more unwanted and unloved children and people on welfare. There's no logical argument

Well would you rather be unloved or killed? Do you then hold affection as a higher moral good than human life?
Furthermore I find the classic argument that children 'will be automatically sent to orphanages if allowed to live past birth' facetious. Do most people really have no family members who would be willing to adopt a relative?
If you are against people being on welfare
a) there is no strong moral argument for a compulsory welfare system. Ethically it's undistinguishable from theft. So I wouldn't consider it some kind of 'moral right' of people who happen to have been born without a silver spoon in their mouth
b) I am not saying abortion should be impossible, merely that it should be early into the pregnancy.
c) If a child is unwanted there are lots of ways not to have one (condoms being one) and accident happen, sure, but that's life and I think 7 weeks is plenty of time to pee on a 3 dollars stick after having unprotected sex or having a condom break.

As for the timeline, err probably before it starts to look like a baby for sympathy's sake. 2nd trimester

it starts looking like a baby before the 2nd trimester (can't tell if this one is 100% accurate but here's a link : Fetal development week by week | BabyCenter )

 

[EcK]

Laughing at you isn't something I'd call emotional. But suit yourself.

Jaguar. You've lost the argument. If it was all a joke 'ah ah' otherwise no sane individual would think that they 'won' this in any way presenting the 'arguments' you did. It read as copy pasted emotional outbursts.

 

[Jaguar]

Jaguar. You've lost the argument.

I wasn't aware there was a win-lose scenario here and have no interest in being part of one. Whatever nonsense you're reading into my posts, get over it.

Edit: Whining in PM won't help your cause.

 

[badatlife]

If so would you find it morally justified if you were murdered by someone whose moral code allows or encourages it?

I predicted you would bring this up. My answer is, killing someone equals bad. Abortion is not. Two very different things and I don't understand how this comparison is applicable in the real world That's a huge oversimplification

Well would you rather be unloved or killed? Do you then hold affection as a higher moral good than human life?
Furthermore I find the argument that children 'must be send to orphanages' facetious. Do most people really have no family members who would be willing to adopt a relative?

Again, it's not my decision to make. I don't care about what some lady 50 states away wants to do.

Well, not allowing abortion would definitely cause a lot of practical problems. And do you realize how much money and effort it costs to raise a child through adulthood? It's the rest of your life. It's a commitment. It's not just as easy as being adopted by a relative-many of whom would find a non-bio child less appealing than their own. I would assume if abortion was banned they would all go to foster care. I don't know which is better or worse... i don't care. As I said before, abortion has no effect on society.

 

[EcK]

I predicted you would bring this up. My answer is, killing someone equals bad. Abortion is not. Two very different things and I don't understand how this comparison is applicable in the real world That's a huge oversimplification

Okey. lets go into your argument.

+ When do fetuses become human in your view? As stating abortion is not murder automatically means you don't consider fetuses to be people.
+ how exactly is it an oversimplification? Are you saying that different lives have different value and below a certain 'value threshold' a human life can be ended

What exactly is your stance?

Again, it's not my decision to make. I don't care about what some lady 50 states away wants to do.

The example of 'another person wants to murder you is it moral' is relevant if one acknowledges the fetus as being a separate human life. In both cases a person decided to end a human life that is not their own. If you consider the child's life to belong to the mother you are then making an argument for ownership of other human beings, aka slavery. I've broached on all these in my OP, do you have a specific rebuttal ?

Well, not allowing abortion would definitely cause a lot of practical problems. And do you realize how much money and effort it costs to raise a child through adulthood?

Well, do you? children are in no way as expensive as people think they are. Furthermore the cost associated with it has nothing to do with the morality and limits if any to abortion.
If you break someone's car it would be expensive to fix, you are however morally obligated to get it fixed if it was under your care.

It's the rest of your life. It's a commitment. It's not just as easy as being adopted by a relative-many of whom would find a non-bio child less appealing than their own. I would assume if abortion was banned they would all go to foster care. I don't know which is better or worse... i don't care. As I said before, abortion has no effect on society.

The ethics of a society have the deepest effect on its cultural development. It is probably the biggest factor in the rise and fall of civilisations.
And if you don't care why are you participating? It's akin to going to mcdonalds and coming to the tilt, the clerk asks what you want and you say "i don't care". If you don't care no reason to come to the table.

 

[badatlife]

Okey. lets go into your argument.

+ When do fetuses become human in your view? As stating abortion is not murder automatically means you don't consider fetuses to be people.
+ how exactly is it an oversimplification? Are you saying that different lives have different value and below a certain 'value threshold' a human life can be ended

What exactly is your stance?




The example of 'another person wants to murder you is it moral' is relevant if one acknowledges the fetus as being a separate human life. In both cases a person decided to end a human life that is not their own. If you consider the child's life to belong to the mother you are then making an argument for ownership of other human beings, aka slavery. I've broached on all these in my OP, do you have a specific rebuttal ?


Well, do you? children are in no way as expensive as people think they are. Furthermore the cost associated with it has nothing to do with the morality and limits if any to abortion.
If you break someone's car it would be expensive to fix, you are however morally obligated to get it fixed if it was under your care.


The ethics of a society have the deepest effect on its cultural development. It is probably the biggest factor in the rise and fall of civilisations.
And if you don't care why are you participating? It's akin to going to mcdonalds and coming to the tilt, the clerk asks what you want and you say "i don't care". If you don't care no reason to come to the table.

Well honestly like I said it doesn't really matter to me when a fetus becomes 'human'. I still think of a fetus as a thing in general, as it doesn't have any consciousness or awareness of what's going on. All I know is that it isn't a living, talking, breathing person. I said it was an oversimplification because you are comparing it to a living, breathing person with x years of life and experience under their belt.

I think it's interesting how you are defining life. A fetus is really, just a bunch of cells, especially in the earliest stages. Biologically, it's living. So are bacteria, insects, and germs. But it's still not a person. Comparing it to killing somebody is wrong

Um, yes, children are much more expensive than you are implying. Quality of life is an issue here. College is roughly 50k a year for 4 years = 200k-not including the years leading up to that and 24/7 vigilance of looking after them when they are younger. What good parents ideally want to leave their kids in debt and fending for themselves after they turn 18? Parenthood is never ending. After you have a child, it's a lifetime commitment to care for them. Unless you want to be a horrible parent.

Oh please. Lol the ethics of society. Same thing people say about gay marriage. Again, there's no impact of abortion on society. Prove to me otherwise.
Well I wanted to make it clear my views are rigid, I know these kinds of things tend to go nowhere because neither of us will change our mind. I guess it's still interesting to discuss, but I'd rather not defend if that makes sense.

 

[Gustavo]

I don't think it's justified.

But I don't care much about it.

 

[Yuurei]

"Is abortion moral" Is too vague of a question.

A lot of people who call abortion immoral do so because they have little experience in life, they know only their own reality and they apply it to everyone else. They think the ONLY reason anyone get's an abortion is because they are irresponsible and using it as birth control-that's what I was raised to believe.
Then I grew up and came to understand the reasons for abortion are as varied as human beings and their life experiences and situations.
Some miserably self-unaware people may claim to know every situation and to have a solution but they absolutly do not and should mind their own business.

Here is a pretty extreme example:
11-Year-Old Rape Victim Requests Abortion, Given C-Section
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...was-forced-give-birth/?utm_term=.401d25b4cc5c

Well honestly like I said it doesn't really matter to me when a fetus becomes 'human'. I still think of a fetus as a thing in general, as it doesn't have any consciousness or awareness of what's going on. All I know is that it isn't a living, talking, breathing person. I said it was an oversimplification because you are comparing it to a living, breathing person with x years of life and experience under their belt.

I think it's interesting how you are defining life. A fetus is really, just a bunch of cells, especially in the earliest stages. Biologically, it's living. So are bacteria, insects, and germs. But it's still not a person. Comparing it to killing somebody is wrong

Um, yes, children are much more expensive than you are implying. Quality of life is an issue here. College is roughly 50k a year for 4 years = 200k-not including the years leading up to that and 24/7 vigilance of looking after them when they are younger. What good parents ideally want to leave their kids in debt and fending for themselves after they turn 18? Parenthood is never ending. After you have a child, it's a lifetime commitment to care for them. Unless you want to be a horrible parent.

Oh please. Lol the ethics of society. Same thing people say about gay marriage. Again, there's no impact of abortion on society. Prove to me otherwise.
Well I wanted to make it clear my views are rigid, I know these kinds of things tend to go nowhere because neither of us will change our mind. I guess it's still interesting to discuss, but I'd rather not defend if that makes sense.

Oh but there is, for starters:

The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

Does Abortion Lower Crime Rates? - ABC News
There is also the obvious fact that fewer women will die of back alley abortions, suicide from being forced to have a baby they cannot support, assault and even murder from parteners who do not want children

Far less money will need to be allocated for the welfare ( and foster care) of children born into poverty-something I would think conservatives would enjoy since they “hate payin fer them single whores”
The same goes for severly disabled children who would otherwise need life-long care.

And of course, the simple fact that people are a lot happier when they have rights and autonomy over thier own bodies.

And I’ll leave with my favorite quot3 on abotion:
“ If men could have babies contraceptives would be over the counter and come in flavors like BBQand cool ranch!”

And I imagine, abortions would be like flushots; available at every drug and grocery store and free for seniors.

 

[Kanra Jest]

Abortion is neither immoral nor moral. Morality is largely subjective, really. Is it a good or bad value to have, though? Hmm

 

[EcK]

"Is abortion moral" Is too vague of a question.

A lot of people who call abortion immoral do so because they have little experience in life, they know only their own reality and they apply it to everyone else. They think the ONLY reason anyone get's an abortion is because they are irresponsible and using it as birth control-that's what I was raised to believe.

Okey, good for them. I've however listed my reasons in the OP.
Furthermore yes I think the majority of people get pregnant because they didn't use birth control. If they didn't want to get pregnant it was their responsibility to use it.

Then I grew up and came to understand the reasons for abortion are as varied as human beings and their life experiences and situations.

Well, ok. So are the reasons for murder, theft etc. what's your point? The personal history of a person doesn't have much to do with whether their actions are moral or immoral.

Some miserably self-unaware people may claim to know every situation and to have a solution but they absolutly do not and should mind their own business.

ok, again this seem to be personal for you. I'm not judging your abortion dude, I'm discussing the ethics of abortion in general. If this is too personal for you I suggest not participating.

Here is a pretty extreme example:
11-Year-Old Rape Victim Requests Abortion, Given C-Section
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...was-forced-give-birth/?utm_term=.401d25b4cc5c

These are extremely rare examples, which are very unfortunate, however it doesn't change the argument as to whether it's a human life or not. If the fetus is a human being then it is a bystander in the rape, it is not culpable. You are proposing to punish the fetus for the crimes of the father. Seems a bit medieval.

Oh but there is, for starters:

The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

Does Abortion Lower Crime Rates? - ABC News
There is also the obvious fact that fewer women will die of back alley abortions, suicide from being forced to have a baby they cannot support, assault and even murder from parteners who do not want children

Far less money will need to be allocated for the welfare ( and foster care) of children born into poverty-something I would think conservatives would enjoy since they “hate payin fer them single whores”
The same goes for severly disabled children who would otherwise need life-long care.

And of course, the simple fact that people are a lot happier when they have rights and autonomy over thier own bodies.

Ok, but are you aware of the weakness of your argument. Because the same logic could be applied to, for example, sterilise all blacks as it would reduce murder rates in the USA by 50%.

And I’ll leave with my favorite quot3 on abotion:
“ If men could have babies contraceptives would be over the counter and come in flavors like BBQand cool ranch!”

And I imagine, abortions would be like flushots; available at every drug and grocery store and free for seniors.

The fact that you have a 'favorite quote about abortion' is somewhat concerning. but ok. However men and women overall have pretty similar views on abortion - with women being somewhat less for it.
I really don't see why things would be different if men could get pregnant and therefore abort. It just seems like a vacuous misandric comment from where I stand.

 

[Jaq]

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] Bro, what are you doing? We know you know tha you'll get a million different answers. Are you just playing with the argument just to play with the notions that people bring up?

 

[EcK]

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] Bro, what are you doing? We know you know tha you'll get a million different answers. Are you just playing with the argument just to play with the notions that people bring up?

Well - it is a debate / discussion so.. yeah.

 

[Jaq]

Well - it is a debate / discussion so.. yeah.

Alright, have fun.

 

[Tellenbach]

I agree with EcK's views but I would add two more scenarios under which an abortion might be preferable:

1) if the mother is intent on killing the baby once it's born, having an abortion is preferable to killing it after birth, and
2) chromosomal testing or ultrasound has revealed severe deformations like the elephant man.

 

[EcK]

I agree with EcK's views but I would add two more scenarios under which an abortion might be preferable:

1) if the mother is intent on killing the baby once it's born, having an abortion is preferable to killing it after birth, and

ok I agree it would be preferable however it doesn't answer the question as to whether either action is moral in the first place.

2) chromosomal testing or ultrasound has revealed severe deformations like the elephant man.

Agreed. I had made a similar-ish argument : P but fair enough I might not have been specific enough, you're right.

for reference, below:

There are some exceptions to that abortion 'deadline':
+ in case it's a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the child to be / fetus I would prioritize the life of the mother after that 7 weeks mark and up to just before birth.
+ people with trisomy or other chromosomal issues could be categorized as non-human from some perspectives and warrant an extension of that abortion deadline up to the point where trisomy can be detected, at which point I would leave it up to the parents to decide. I'm not definite on this though and would rather promote early testing technology before the 7th week mark.

I believe the key here is to define whether fetuses at various stages of development could be considered as living human beings, as alot of the arguments depend on whether we consider the fetus as human and from what point.
An obvious answer would be 'from conception', another one would be 'when something like a brain emerges' (that's the point I've chosen as of now) and lastly 'only after birth'.
I think that any other arguments are rather easily refuted and - if universalized - would mean that killing adults for the same reasons would be morally sound.

 

[wildmoon]

I know you’re asking this just to have a debate etc but I’ll jump in anyway.
I would take it on a case by case basis, leaning towards the side of yes, it’s morally justified. There are so many cases in which the mother’s life is in danger, in which case if she has other children they’re in danger of being left motherless, etc. There are so many women who’ve died preventable deaths because the doctor refused to perform an abortion. Is it morally okay to refuse to save a dying woman when you’re capable of doing so?
I think you mentioned that you don’t agree with the bodily autonomy argument, but I do. Part of the bodily autonomy argument is that someone else can’t use your body without your consent. Even corpses have that right, so if you take that right away from a pregnant woman, you’re giving her less rights than that of a corpse.
Also people generally don’t get abortions just for shits and gigs. It has to be a dire situation to even consider getting an abortion. No one wants to do that. It’s traumatic, dangerous and it often leaves people infertile afterwards.
Finally I have to ask, are you a male? If so you’ll never be in danger from a pregnancy, you’ll never have to carry a rapist’s child, etc. So while it’s a fascinating debate for you, it’s a very real and tragic issue for many others. I saw that you told someone not to participate if it was a personal topic for them. I disagree - I think if someone has personal experience with this topic, they are the most qualified to participate. We can learn more about the reality of it from people who’ve actually experienced it.

 

[Lark]

So if someone has a miscarriage they are morally reprehensible?