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  1. #31
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    "Is abortion moral" Is too vague of a question.

    A lot of people who call abortion immoral do so because they have little experience in life, they know only their own reality and they apply it to everyone else. They think the ONLY reason anyone get's an abortion is because they are irresponsible and using it as birth control-that's what I was raised to believe.
    Then I grew up and came to understand the reasons for abortion are as varied as human beings and their life experiences and situations.
    Some miserably self-unaware people may claim to know every situation and to have a solution but they absolutly do not and should mind their own business.

    Here is a pretty extreme example:
    11-Year-Old Rape Victim Requests Abortion, Given C-Section
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.401d25b4cc5c

    Quote Originally Posted by badatlife View Post
    Well honestly like I said it doesn't really matter to me when a fetus becomes 'human'. I still think of a fetus as a thing in general, as it doesn't have any consciousness or awareness of what's going on. All I know is that it isn't a living, talking, breathing person. I said it was an oversimplification because you are comparing it to a living, breathing person with x years of life and experience under their belt.

    I think it's interesting how you are defining life. A fetus is really, just a bunch of cells, especially in the earliest stages. Biologically, it's living. So are bacteria, insects, and germs. But it's still not a person. Comparing it to killing somebody is wrong

    Um, yes, children are much more expensive than you are implying. Quality of life is an issue here. College is roughly 50k a year for 4 years = 200k-not including the years leading up to that and 24/7 vigilance of looking after them when they are younger. What good parents ideally want to leave their kids in debt and fending for themselves after they turn 18? Parenthood is never ending. After you have a child, it's a lifetime commitment to care for them. Unless you want to be a horrible parent.

    Oh please. Lol the ethics of society. Same thing people say about gay marriage. Again, there's no impact of abortion on society. Prove to me otherwise.
    Well I wanted to make it clear my views are rigid, I know these kinds of things tend to go nowhere because neither of us will change our mind. I guess it's still interesting to discuss, but I'd rather not defend if that makes sense.
    Oh but there is, for starters:

    The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

    Does Abortion Lower Crime Rates? - ABC News
    There is also the obvious fact that fewer women will die of back alley abortions, suicide from being forced to have a baby they cannot support, assault and even murder from parteners who do not want children

    Far less money will need to be allocated for the welfare ( and foster care) of children born into poverty-something I would think conservatives would enjoy since they “hate payin fer them single whores”
    The same goes for severly disabled children who would otherwise need life-long care.

    And of course, the simple fact that people are a lot happier when they have rights and autonomy over thier own bodies.

    And I’ll leave with my favorite quot3 on abotion:
    “ If men could have babies contraceptives would be over the counter and come in flavors like BBQand cool ranch!”

    And I imagine, abortions would be like flushots; available at every drug and grocery store and free for seniors.
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  2. #32
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Abortion is neither immoral nor moral. Morality is largely subjective, really. Is it a good or bad value to have, though? Hmm
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

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  3. #33
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuu View Post
    "Is abortion moral" Is too vague of a question.

    A lot of people who call abortion immoral do so because they have little experience in life, they know only their own reality and they apply it to everyone else. They think the ONLY reason anyone get's an abortion is because they are irresponsible and using it as birth control-that's what I was raised to believe.
    Okey, good for them. I've however listed my reasons in the OP.
    Furthermore yes I think the majority of people get pregnant because they didn't use birth control. If they didn't want to get pregnant it was their responsibility to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuu View Post
    Then I grew up and came to understand the reasons for abortion are as varied as human beings and their life experiences and situations.
    Well, ok. So are the reasons for murder, theft etc. what's your point? The personal history of a person doesn't have much to do with whether their actions are moral or immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuu View Post
    Some miserably self-unaware people may claim to know every situation and to have a solution but they absolutly do not and should mind their own business.
    ok, again this seem to be personal for you. I'm not judging your abortion dude, I'm discussing the ethics of abortion in general. If this is too personal for you I suggest not participating.


    These are extremely rare examples, which are very unfortunate, however it doesn't change the argument as to whether it's a human life or not. If the fetus is a human being then it is a bystander in the rape, it is not culpable. You are proposing to punish the fetus for the crimes of the father. Seems a bit medieval.


    Oh but there is, for starters:

    The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime

    Does Abortion Lower Crime Rates? - ABC News
    There is also the obvious fact that fewer women will die of back alley abortions, suicide from being forced to have a baby they cannot support, assault and even murder from parteners who do not want children

    Far less money will need to be allocated for the welfare ( and foster care) of children born into poverty-something I would think conservatives would enjoy since they “hate payin fer them single whores”
    The same goes for severly disabled children who would otherwise need life-long care.

    And of course, the simple fact that people are a lot happier when they have rights and autonomy over thier own bodies.
    Ok, but are you aware of the weakness of your argument. Because the same logic could be applied to, for example, sterilise all blacks as it would reduce murder rates in the USA by 50%.

    And I’ll leave with my favorite quot3 on abotion:
    “ If men could have babies contraceptives would be over the counter and come in flavors like BBQand cool ranch!”

    And I imagine, abortions would be like flushots; available at every drug and grocery store and free for seniors.
    The fact that you have a 'favorite quote about abortion' is somewhat concerning. but ok. However men and women overall have pretty similar views on abortion - with women being somewhat less for it.
    I really don't see why things would be different if men could get pregnant and therefore abort. It just seems like a vacuous misandric comment from where I stand.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  4. #34
    Remember, Humanity. Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
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    @EcK Bro, what are you doing? We know you know tha you'll get a million different answers. Are you just playing with the argument just to play with the notions that people bring up?
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  5. #35
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques Le Paul View Post
    @EcK Bro, what are you doing? We know you know tha you'll get a million different answers. Are you just playing with the argument just to play with the notions that people bring up?
    Well - it is a debate / discussion so.. yeah.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  6. #36
    Remember, Humanity. Jacques Le Paul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well - it is a debate / discussion so.. yeah.
    Alright, have fun.
    Always forward, never back!

    "I always love talking to people and hearing their story. People always have a good life story to tell ya know?"

    Today is the beginning, and tomorrow is the beginning of everything else.

    March on, life's too grand to let things get you down for long. It's a beautiful place and we're so blessed to be here.

    I am a person of fortune and I must seek my fortune.


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  7. #37
    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I agree with EcK's views but I would add two more scenarios under which an abortion might be preferable:

    1) if the mother is intent on killing the baby once it's born, having an abortion is preferable to killing it after birth, and
    2) chromosomal testing or ultrasound has revealed severe deformations like the elephant man.
    If these space aliens were really smart, they'd post videos on youtube instead of wasting their time with crop circles.

  8. #38
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I agree with EcK's views but I would add two more scenarios under which an abortion might be preferable:

    1) if the mother is intent on killing the baby once it's born, having an abortion is preferable to killing it after birth, and
    ok I agree it would be preferable however it doesn't answer the question as to whether either action is moral in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    2) chromosomal testing or ultrasound has revealed severe deformations like the elephant man.
    Agreed. I had made a similar-ish argument : P but fair enough I might not have been specific enough, you're right.

    for reference, below:
    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    There are some exceptions to that abortion 'deadline':
    + in case it's a choice between the life of the mother and the life of the child to be / fetus I would prioritize the life of the mother after that 7 weeks mark and up to just before birth.
    + people with trisomy or other chromosomal issues could be categorized as non-human from some perspectives and warrant an extension of that abortion deadline up to the point where trisomy can be detected, at which point I would leave it up to the parents to decide. I'm not definite on this though and would rather promote early testing technology before the 7th week mark.
    I believe the key here is to define whether fetuses at various stages of development could be considered as living human beings, as alot of the arguments depend on whether we consider the fetus as human and from what point.
    An obvious answer would be 'from conception', another one would be 'when something like a brain emerges' (that's the point I've chosen as of now) and lastly 'only after birth'.
    I think that any other arguments are rather easily refuted and - if universalized - would mean that killing adults for the same reasons would be morally sound.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  9. #39
    Member wildmoon's Avatar
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    I know you’re asking this just to have a debate etc but I’ll jump in anyway.
    I would take it on a case by case basis, leaning towards the side of yes, it’s morally justified. There are so many cases in which the mother’s life is in danger, in which case if she has other children they’re in danger of being left motherless, etc. There are so many women who’ve died preventable deaths because the doctor refused to perform an abortion. Is it morally okay to refuse to save a dying woman when you’re capable of doing so?
    I think you mentioned that you don’t agree with the bodily autonomy argument, but I do. Part of the bodily autonomy argument is that someone else can’t use your body without your consent. Even corpses have that right, so if you take that right away from a pregnant woman, you’re giving her less rights than that of a corpse.
    Also people generally don’t get abortions just for shits and gigs. It has to be a dire situation to even consider getting an abortion. No one wants to do that. It’s traumatic, dangerous and it often leaves people infertile afterwards.
    Finally I have to ask, are you a male? If so you’ll never be in danger from a pregnancy, you’ll never have to carry a rapist’s child, etc. So while it’s a fascinating debate for you, it’s a very real and tragic issue for many others. I saw that you told someone not to participate if it was a personal topic for them. I disagree - I think if someone has personal experience with this topic, they are the most qualified to participate. We can learn more about the reality of it from people who’ve actually experienced it.
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  10. #40
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    So if someone has a miscarriage they are morally reprehensible?

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