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  1. #21
    Just wanna die I, Tonya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    What is your opinion and what is it based on?
    First off, everyone has a difficult situation and therefore judging would be imbecile move. Maybe I do find the greatest influence to be society in general, but that's not the subject right now.

    It's hard to have morality in abortion. For it to hold moral stance, human life has to hold value and for the most part it doesn't that much. Eh, before I say it doesn't matter if girls get abortion or not, there's a few things I believe need to be in place.
    -Going off 'Women rights are human rights,' baby rights are also human rights.
    -I think men should have consent since it is their biological child as well.
    -I don't know how girls of a young age can get an abortion, when we don't let them drink alcohol til they 21.
    -I know a lot of them argue abortion is better than not being able to provide for their kid at a young age, we should have community housing for young moms with kids. Maybe discounts or something for daycare, idk just throwing out ideas.
    -Letting them actually have kids might help with generations learning lessons, valuing safe sex OR just give more value to sex. Not bash or create humiliation, but coming from a mature stance I don't see the point of kids under 18 having sex (which would take a lot of work for society to even think like that or change).
    -Overall, I think there should be more studies and statistics explaining the root causes.
    You can always change your mind, and you, No, you can't change mine.
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  2. #22
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    I just wanted to add a little current event as a piece of exposition on the topic. She didn't specifically murder it, she just abandoned it alive somewhere. Since roe v wade was ethically and legally based on older no trespassing laws, I feel like it should be able to be used to get this woman off the hook- which essentially binds abortion and infanticide to the same ethical level. It's easy to bind infanticide to any other form of murder, and further in the reverse direction all the way to conception- so the only logical form of ethical abortion is no abortion at all.

    The only thing I disagree with you on is the idea that the only important part of a person is their brain.
    fair enough. I wasn't really going for the legal argument. I generally find the law often has little to do with coherent ethics and I wouldn't consider it as a sound base for one's morals, merely a rule book to avoid getting bullied by the state that happens to have some relation to ethics via cultural hosmosis.

    From what I know of Roe V Wade - it's based on the notion that abortion is somehow related to the right to privacy. That's an idiotic stretch. "the right to be let alone/right to personal autonomy" could just as well be applied to the fetus. Furthermore the right to privacy has to do with violations of the privacy of individuals. It is not a moral argument at all - it is merely a legal one in which the fetus has no legal protection and is therefore not an individual benefitting from legal protection as he or she doesn't have a birth certificate so that the only 'privacy' that could legally be 'harmed' is that of the documented person : the mother. If i can figure that out in 2 minutes (and I'm French) I doubt that the rest of the Roe V Wade argument holds much water either.
    Last edited by EcK; 03-14-2019 at 06:11 PM.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    you're not making any sense and getting overly emotional.
    Laughing at you isn't something I'd call emotional. But suit yourself.

  4. #24
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badatlife View Post
    In the end the bottom line is that I just don't care. I have my own life and things to worry about and I apply my morals to my life only.
    If so would you find it morally justified if you were murdered by someone whose moral code allows or encourages it?

    Quote Originally Posted by badatlife View Post
    I'm not about to police the rest of the world. Allowing abortion isn't sending life into chaos, banning it would leave a lot more unwanted and unloved children and people on welfare. There's no logical argument
    Well would you rather be unloved or killed? Do you then hold affection as a higher moral good than human life?
    Furthermore I find the classic argument that children 'will be automatically sent to orphanages if allowed to live past birth' facetious. Do most people really have no family members who would be willing to adopt a relative?
    If you are against people being on welfare
    a) there is no strong moral argument for a compulsory welfare system. Ethically it's undistinguishable from theft. So I wouldn't consider it some kind of 'moral right' of people who happen to have been born without a silver spoon in their mouth
    b) I am not saying abortion should be impossible, merely that it should be early into the pregnancy.
    c) If a child is unwanted there are lots of ways not to have one (condoms being one) and accident happen, sure, but that's life and I think 7 weeks is plenty of time to pee on a 3 dollars stick after having unprotected sex or having a condom break.

    As for the timeline, err probably before it starts to look like a baby for sympathy's sake. 2nd trimester
    it starts looking like a baby before the 2nd trimester (can't tell if this one is 100% accurate but here's a link : Fetal development week by week | BabyCenter )
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #25
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Laughing at you isn't something I'd call emotional. But suit yourself.
    Jaguar. You've lost the argument. If it was all a joke 'ah ah' otherwise no sane individual would think that they 'won' this in any way presenting the 'arguments' you did. It read as copy pasted emotional outbursts.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Jaguar. You've lost the argument.
    I wasn't aware there was a win-lose scenario here and have no interest in being part of one. Whatever nonsense you're reading into my posts, get over it.

    Edit: Whining in PM won't help your cause.

  7. #27
    Senior Member badatlife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    If so would you find it morally justified if you were murdered by someone whose moral code allows or encourages it?
    I predicted you would bring this up. My answer is, killing someone equals bad. Abortion is not. Two very different things and I don't understand how this comparison is applicable in the real world That's a huge oversimplification



    Well would you rather be unloved or killed? Do you then hold affection as a higher moral good than human life?
    Furthermore I find the argument that children 'must be send to orphanages' facetious. Do most people really have no family members who would be willing to adopt a relative?
    Again, it's not my decision to make. I don't care about what some lady 50 states away wants to do.

    Well, not allowing abortion would definitely cause a lot of practical problems. And do you realize how much money and effort it costs to raise a child through adulthood? It's the rest of your life. It's a commitment. It's not just as easy as being adopted by a relative-many of whom would find a non-bio child less appealing than their own. I would assume if abortion was banned they would all go to foster care. I don't know which is better or worse... i don't care. As I said before, abortion has no effect on society.

  8. #28
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badatlife View Post
    I predicted you would bring this up. My answer is, killing someone equals bad. Abortion is not. Two very different things and I don't understand how this comparison is applicable in the real world That's a huge oversimplification
    Okey. lets go into your argument.

    + When do fetuses become human in your view? As stating abortion is not murder automatically means you don't consider fetuses to be people.
    + how exactly is it an oversimplification? Are you saying that different lives have different value and below a certain 'value threshold' a human life can be ended

    What exactly is your stance?



    Again, it's not my decision to make. I don't care about what some lady 50 states away wants to do.
    The example of 'another person wants to murder you is it moral' is relevant if one acknowledges the fetus as being a separate human life. In both cases a person decided to end a human life that is not their own. If you consider the child's life to belong to the mother you are then making an argument for ownership of other human beings, aka slavery. I've broached on all these in my OP, do you have a specific rebuttal ?

    Well, not allowing abortion would definitely cause a lot of practical problems. And do you realize how much money and effort it costs to raise a child through adulthood?
    Well, do you? children are in no way as expensive as people think they are. Furthermore the cost associated with it has nothing to do with the morality and limits if any to abortion.
    If you break someone's car it would be expensive to fix, you are however morally obligated to get it fixed if it was under your care.

    It's the rest of your life. It's a commitment. It's not just as easy as being adopted by a relative-many of whom would find a non-bio child less appealing than their own. I would assume if abortion was banned they would all go to foster care. I don't know which is better or worse... i don't care. As I said before, abortion has no effect on society.
    The ethics of a society have the deepest effect on its cultural development. It is probably the biggest factor in the rise and fall of civilisations.
    And if you don't care why are you participating? It's akin to going to mcdonalds and coming to the tilt, the clerk asks what you want and you say "i don't care". If you don't care no reason to come to the table.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  9. #29
    Senior Member badatlife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Okey. lets go into your argument.

    + When do fetuses become human in your view? As stating abortion is not murder automatically means you don't consider fetuses to be people.
    + how exactly is it an oversimplification? Are you saying that different lives have different value and below a certain 'value threshold' a human life can be ended

    What exactly is your stance?




    The example of 'another person wants to murder you is it moral' is relevant if one acknowledges the fetus as being a separate human life. In both cases a person decided to end a human life that is not their own. If you consider the child's life to belong to the mother you are then making an argument for ownership of other human beings, aka slavery. I've broached on all these in my OP, do you have a specific rebuttal ?


    Well, do you? children are in no way as expensive as people think they are. Furthermore the cost associated with it has nothing to do with the morality and limits if any to abortion.
    If you break someone's car it would be expensive to fix, you are however morally obligated to get it fixed if it was under your care.


    The ethics of a society have the deepest effect on its cultural development. It is probably the biggest factor in the rise and fall of civilisations.
    And if you don't care why are you participating? It's akin to going to mcdonalds and coming to the tilt, the clerk asks what you want and you say "i don't care". If you don't care no reason to come to the table.
    Well honestly like I said it doesn't really matter to me when a fetus becomes 'human'. I still think of a fetus as a thing in general, as it doesn't have any consciousness or awareness of what's going on. All I know is that it isn't a living, talking, breathing person. I said it was an oversimplification because you are comparing it to a living, breathing person with x years of life and experience under their belt.

    I think it's interesting how you are defining life. A fetus is really, just a bunch of cells, especially in the earliest stages. Biologically, it's living. So are bacteria, insects, and germs. But it's still not a person. Comparing it to killing somebody is wrong

    Um, yes, children are much more expensive than you are implying. Quality of life is an issue here. College is roughly 50k a year for 4 years = 200k-not including the years leading up to that and 24/7 vigilance of looking after them when they are younger. What good parents ideally want to leave their kids in debt and fending for themselves after they turn 18? Parenthood is never ending. After you have a child, it's a lifetime commitment to care for them. Unless you want to be a horrible parent.

    Oh please. Lol the ethics of society. Same thing people say about gay marriage. Again, there's no impact of abortion on society. Prove to me otherwise.
    Well I wanted to make it clear my views are rigid, I know these kinds of things tend to go nowhere because neither of us will change our mind. I guess it's still interesting to discuss, but I'd rather not defend if that makes sense.
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  10. #30
    Junior Member Gustavo's Avatar
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    I don't think it's justified.

    But I don't care much about it.

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