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  1. #11
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't think it's reasonable to expect any woman to screw up her endocrine system and by extension her entire body by taking birth control pills. But that's me.
    Ok. So she can either abstain from sex, or use other protections (condoms) or use implants etc. etc. There's many alternatives.

    None of what you stated are counter arguments as to whether it's moral or not and in which conditions. You've merely stated that in some rare cases there might be late pregnancy detection due to late periods and that it might be inconvenient to spend a few dollars a month getting tested if one wants to be sloppy with protection or not use them at all. Yes. so what? I've never heard of the argument that men shouldn't be responsible for pregnancies or pay child support because condoms would cost them a few bucks and it's just not fair to expect them to be responsible.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  2. #12
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    38 Years Later, DNA Leads to Mother Who Abandoned Her Baby in a Ditch - The Atlantic

    The woman probably didn't have abortion access. Should she really be charged with murder?
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  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anticlimatic View Post
    38 Years Later, DNA Leads to Mother Who Abandoned Her Baby in a Ditch - The Atlantic

    The woman probably didn't have abortion access. Should she really be charged with murder?
    Yes. It is murder. Unless you think the newborn was holding her at gunpoint?

    Neither you nor @Jaguar have provided any counter argument.
    Just pleas for sympathy stating that the woman's convenience outweights her responsibility. I don't think it does.

    As stated in the OP this is about the morality of abortion and its limits if any. It might be convenient for a psychopath to rob you and kill you rather than work to buy shit - who cares? The question is whether it's ethical. I've given specific arguments and I've yet to hear any attempt and at an argument appart from @Ravenetta @Exolvuntur 's posts.

    If what you said was an moral argument it is stating that convenience outweights the value of human life. Is that the argument you are making? if so justify it.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exolvuntur View Post
    I think its morally wrong to kill any life, but sometimes its a necessary evil. I don't get why people can't acknowledge it is bad, and still do it if they believe they must. It is pawning off responsibility for your actions. I am not against abortions, but I think the message of the sanctity of life is ESSENTIAL to prevent moral degradation.
    thanks for your thoughts.
    Under what conditions do you think it's a necessary evil?

    I agree that lots of abortion, probably a very vast majority is due to pawning off responsibility for one's actions. (unprotected sex or sex at all without expecting any positive negative consequence - i say negative assuming that they see it as such if they decide to abort).

    I am not against abortions
    I don't get why people can't acknowledge it is bad, and still do it if they believe they must.
    if you think it's immoral why do you think that they still should be able to and why are you not against abortion (not a leading question, just wondering what your position is)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #15
    Senior Member badatlife's Avatar
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    Hmm, I've talked to a few people who think like this and just ended up getting into heated arguments. We always end up arguing over whether or not it's murder, blah blah blah. In the end the bottom line is that I just don't care. I have my own life and things to worry about and I apply my morals to my life only. I'm not about to police the rest of the world. Allowing abortion isn't sending life into chaos, banning it would leave a lot more unwanted and unloved children and people on welfare. There's no logical argument

    As for the timeline, err probably before it starts to look like a baby for sympathy's sake. 2nd trimester
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  6. #16
    Startouched Elf Tenebris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    thanks for your thoughts.
    Under what conditions do you think it's a necessary evil?

    I agree that lots of abortion, probably a very vast majority is due to pawning off responsibility for one's actions. (unprotected sex or sex at all without expecting any positive negative consequence - i say negative assuming that they see it as such if they decide to abort).


    if you think it's immoral why do you think that they still should be able to and why are you not against abortion (not a leading question, just wondering what your position is)
    Evil in this context while subjective, is setting aside morality to accomplish a greater good. Sometimes, one must kill one to save many. In the case of abortion, it might be mercy (deformed, brain dead etc). Or if the mother is incapable of rearing or raising a child. While it is sometimes required, NOT ONCE should it be celebrated. Life is life, and while it is survival of the fittest. What separates humans from the animals is our endless compassion and empathy for life that extends beyond our species. If one is reckless, and refuses to own up to their mistakes (and people need to quit fucking making excuses like people are too dumb at certain ages). They should learn the weight of responsibility of taking a life. An unborn life didn't choose to be conceived just to be killed because it is unwanted. Our society has become one of selfish indulgence, and pawning off responsibility for every mistake on others and the government to fix. When they themselves are to blame. It is a tragedy to me. ...but I recognize not everyone agrees with my opinion. In fact I think most people do not understand the sanctity of life anymore. I can respect disagreement. If the middle ground is allowing for some abortions with re-enforcement of not doing it to begin with. I will allow it.

    (Also not talking about criminal cases if pregnancy from rape etc Only pregancies done by consentual sex)
    一期一会

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Ok. So she can either abstain from sex, or use other protections (condoms) or use implants etc. etc. There's many alternatives.

    None of what you stated are counter arguments as to whether it's moral or not and in which conditions. You've merely stated that in some rare cases there might be late pregnancy detection due to late periods and that it might be inconvenient to spend a few dollars a month getting tested if one wants to be sloppy with protection or not use them at all. Yes. so what? I've never heard of the argument that men shouldn't be responsible for pregnancies or pay child support because condoms would cost them a few bucks and it's just not fair to expect them to be responsible.
    Are you really asking me if I think driving the speed limit is immoral? For crying out loud. Abortion is legal. But by all means, fuck up a woman's body with BC pills and don't tell her the long-term consequences. That's definitely "moral."

  8. #18
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yes. It is murder. Unless you think the newborn was holding her at gunpoint?

    Neither you nor @Jaguar have provided any counter argument.
    Just pleas for sympathy stating that the woman's convenience outweights her responsibility. I don't think it does.

    As stated in the OP this is about the morality of abortion and its limits if any. It might be convenient for a psychopath to rob you and kill you rather than work to buy shit - who cares? The question is whether it's ethical. I've given specific arguments and I've yet to hear any attempt and at an argument appart from @Ravenetta @Exolvuntur 's posts.

    If what you said was an moral argument it is stating that convenience outweights the value of human life. Is that the argument you are making? if so justify it.
    I just wanted to add a little current event as a piece of exposition on the topic. She didn't specifically murder it, she just abandoned it alive somewhere. Since roe v wade was ethically and legally based on older no trespassing laws, I feel like it should be able to be used to get this woman off the hook- which essentially binds abortion and infanticide to the same ethical level. It's easy to bind infanticide to any other form of murder, and further in the reverse direction all the way to conception- so the only logical form of ethical abortion is no abortion at all.

    The only thing I disagree with you on is the idea that the only important part of a person is their brain.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    The drumbeating that never ends:

    https://www.typologycentral.com/foru...rchid=5661&pp=

    Add this thread.

  10. #20
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Are you really asking me if I think driving the speed limit is immoral? For crying out loud. Abortion is legal. But by all means, fuck up a woman's body with BC pills and don't tell her the long-term consequences. That's definitely "moral."
    you're not making any sense and getting overly emotional. I don't think you're actually having a converstion with me but rather with yourself as you're literally raising points I never made or so widly misrepresented you might as well be talking to yourself. This is pointless.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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