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Jungian archetypes and astrological sign analogues

Kho

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Jung himself was deeply inspired by the study of astrology, no?
I'm thinking of giving Carl Jung and Dane Rudhyar a thorough read against each other.
Not sure what I think I'll find.
In the meantime, I'm drawing up a simple chart of what *I* think are analogues.
(I'm betting someone has done something similar to this before, but anyway.)
I put 'Trad.' in parentheses for the traditional ruler of the sign.




SIGN - RULING PLANET(s) - MBTI TYPE(s)

Aries - Mars - ESFJ/ENFJ.
Taurus - Venus - ISFP/ISFJ.
Gemini - Mercury - ESTJ.
Cancer - Moon - INFP/ISFP.
Leo - Sun - ENFJ/ENTJ.
Virgo - Mercury - ISTJ/ISFJ.
Libra - Venus - ESFJ/ESFP.
Scorpio - Pluto / Mars (Trad.) - INFJ/INTJ
Sagittarius - Jupiter - ENTJ/ENFP/ENFJ
Capricorn - Saturn - ENTJ/ ENTP
Aquarius - Uranus / Saturn (Trad.) - ISFP/ESFJ
Pisces- Neptune / Jupiter (Trad.) - INFP/ISFP




I'll give the more spelled-out rationale for these groupings later, as I'm in the middle of something.
This is a rough schematic so there's probably some things to tweak / stuff I left out.
I'm mostly going by my abstract intuition and the preconceived notions that I've acquired during my short decades of being alive and observing people.

In the meantime, let me know what y'all think!


**I moved this thread from a different category
 

Dyslexxie

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Hmmm I really like this but I have zero knowledge of astrology beyond what my sign is really. I'm gonna keep an eye on the thread for more info as it arrives.
Aries - Mars - ESFJ/ENFJ.
Taurus - Venus - ISFP/ISFJ.
Gemini - Mercury - ESTJ.
Cancer - Moon - INFP/ISFP.
Leo - Sun - ENFJ/ENTJ.
Virgo - Mercury - ISTJ/ISFJ.
Libra - Venus - ESFJ/ESFP.
Scorpio - Pluto / Mars (Trad.) - INFJ/INTJ
Sagittarius - Jupiter - ENTJ/ENFP/ENFJ
Capricorn - Saturn - ENTJ/ ENTP
Aquarius - Uranus / Saturn (Trad.) - ISFP/ESFJ
Pisces- Neptune / Jupiter (Trad.) - INFP/ISFP
I can see Capricorn being either ENTJ for sure - the bossy, authoritative, diligent type. Not sure about the ENTP as much but I thought I was an ENTP for a LONG time, and I can see that applying to the more unusual and inventive Capricorn type.

I have a really good book on astrology that I could scroll through over the next few days out of sheer curiosity. Maybe I'll have something more meaningful to add to this. Otherwise, cool topic! Can't wait to see what others think.
 

Kho

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You're going to find no meaningful correlation between MBTI type and astrology type.

interesting, why do you think so?
Astrology relies on archetypes, which Jung drew from, and those ultimately contributed to the MBTI typology.
At the very least there is a form of causality in the historicity.
 

Kho

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Hmmm I really like this but I have zero knowledge of astrology beyond what my sign is really. I'm gonna keep an eye on the thread for more info as it arrives.

I can see Capricorn being either ENTJ for sure - the bossy, authoritative, diligent type. Not sure about the ENTP as much but I thought I was an ENTP for a LONG time, and I can see that applying to the more unusual and inventive Capricorn type.

I have a really good book on astrology that I could scroll through over the next few days out of sheer curiosity. Maybe I'll have something more meaningful to add to this. Otherwise, cool topic! Can't wait to see what others think.

Cool beans. Astrology can get really complicated once you dig into it. There's some basic online resources you could look up too, like astrotheme.com or astro.com .
I suggest ignoring their paid services and just hitting up their natal chart drawing.
Basically what it is is, every planet falls into a different sign and every sign falls into a different house, and everything means something. :D
 

á´…eparted

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interesting, why do you think so?
Astrology relies on archetypes, which Jung drew from, and those ultimately contributed to the MBTI typology.
At the very least there is a form of causality in the historicity.

I know a significant amount about astrology (though I know longer believe or put stock into it). I also know a significant amount about MBTI. There's little meaningful overlap. They're two separate theories with no underpinning commonality. Further, astrology is immensely complex and is incompatible with the comparative simplicity of MBTI.
 

Kho

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That's an interesting perspective, but I do disagree with you on certain counts.
I do agree that astrology is immensely more complex than the MBTI typology. (MBTI is simplistic and practical, focusing on a single typometry, whereas astrology is a broader field in itself, like psychology or literature.) But I would assert that both systems of thought provide useful tools for gauging the human psyche. Archetypes by definition are symbolic in nature, and both astrology and the MBTI rely heavily on ascribing archetypal functions or characteristics to people or situations. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to look for analogues.

Why do you no longer put stock in astrology?
 

á´…eparted

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That's an interesting perspective, but I do disagree with you on certain counts.
I do agree that astrology is immensely more complex than the MBTI typology. (MBTI is simplistic and practical, focusing on a single typometry, whereas astrology is a broader field in itself, like psychology or literature.) But I would assert that both systems of thought provide useful tools for gauging the human psyche. Archetypes by definition are symbolic in nature, and both astrology and the MBTI rely heavily on ascribing archetypal functions or characteristics to people or situations. I don't think it would be too far off the mark to look for analogues.

Why do you no longer put stock in astrology?

Of course they're useful. They're useful insofar as they're fun toys to explore, and they can be spring boards in to self discovery and self awareness that would be difficult to access otherwise. I still greatly connect with my natal chart as, credit where credit is due, it does fit me like a glove in regards to personality. That's about it though.

Regardless, the two still can not be reliably correlated. What I said stands- the systems don't even follow the same principles or share a common foundation. I don't even fit it either. I have 0 fire in my chart, and that's where you've patterned ENFJ. I've said it in other threads, but the only anecdotal pattern I have noticed is INFx and 4's tend to have larger Aries influences than you would statistically expect. Which ultimately does make sense- Aries is self-focused, as are most INFx's and 4's. It's purely anecdotal though, and could not be easily substantiated as there are simply too many loosely related ways for such a pattern to show up in a chart.

The closest thing you'll find to system overlap would be between MBTI and enneagram. Even then, the correlation is loose. Astrology? You'll see no such pattern.

I no longer put stock into astrology, because the idea that heavenly bodies in the sky (that no longer reflect modern physics and orbital placement either) somehow dictate our personalities and life events is complete and utter nonsense. There is no rational basis for astrology as a theory and is no different from some system I could invent overnight that follows some kind of natural order. Astrology experiences a very, very complex and impossible to tease apart forer effect that lends to it appearing to have a basis. I still give it credit as natal charts tend to fit most people. Some more than others, but I chalk that mostly up to statistics and the forer effect. If astrology is used for self exploration and analysis of ones personality and nature, or is used for fun and conversation I am fine with it. It stops there though. I do not support it being used to predict future events or time periods at all, and I think it's utterly foolish to do so.
 

Kho

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I'm on mobile so let me get to the other points you brought up at a later time, but I'd just like to say that archetypes and anecdotes are two completely different things and I don't understand why you'd conflate the two. The former are abstract and conceptual whereas the latter are empirically experienced. The study of astrology is infinitely complex and while I myself have an Aries sun and a Pisces moon with Cancer rising, I'm more of an INTP than any of the types I listed on the analogues list above. This is just a starting point for me to figure out archetypal analogues. It doesn't have to have anything to do with reality.

Also, I am looking for archetypal analogues. That has absolutely nothing to do with correlation or "looking for system overlap," as you put it. Jupiter the deity is an analogue of Zeus the deity. That doesn't mean either of them exist, or that the Greek pantheon and Roman pantheon are systemically alike. They're just analoguous.

Of course you can't verify or replicate anything related to astrology if you try to test it with modern science. That's not what it's about. As for predicting the future, I'm with you there, in that I don't think astrology has much predictive value. There are lots of quacks that claim it does, and I don't have much patience with them.
 

Kho

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.. also.. it's not possible for anyone to have zero fire in a chart. Your fire elements (Mars, Sun, Leo, Aries, etc) can be stunted or badly aspected, but no one has a complete dearth in anything. When they say you have a void in X department that doesn't mean you're incapacitated in that faculty. If that were the case all people with a water-void natal chart would be psychopaths and from what I know this is untrue.
 

iauiugu

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I still greatly connect with my natal chart as, credit where credit is due, it does fit me like a glove in regards to personality.

Regardless, the two still can not be reliably correlated. What I said stands- the systems don't even follow the same principles or share a common foundation. I don't even fit it either. I have 0 fire in my chart, and that's where you've patterned ENFJ. I've said it in other threads, but the only anecdotal pattern I have noticed is INFx and 4's tend to have larger Aries influences than you would statistically expect. Which ultimately does make sense- Aries is self-focused, as are most INFx's and 4's. It's purely anecdotal though, and could not be easily substantiated as there are simply too many loosely related ways for such a pattern to show up in a chart.

The closest thing you'll find to system overlap would be between MBTI and enneagram. Even then, the correlation is loose. Astrology? You'll see no such pattern.

I no longer put stock into astrology, because the idea that heavenly bodies in the sky (that no longer reflect modern physics and orbital placement either) somehow dictate our personalities and life events is complete and utter nonsense. There is no rational basis for astrology as a theory and is no different from some system I could invent overnight that follows some kind of natural order. Astrology experiences a very, very complex and impossible to tease apart forer effect that lends to it appearing to have a basis. I still give it credit as natal charts tend to fit most people. Some more than others, but I chalk that mostly up to statistics and the forer effect. If astrology is used for self exploration and analysis of ones personality and nature, or is used for fun and conversation I am fine with it. It stops there though. I do not support it being used to predict future events or time periods at all, and I think it's utterly foolish to do so.

Why would others necessarily fit with their natal charts because of statistics and the forer effect, while you yourself relate so much to your own? do you feel your perception is similarly effected?

Just because a mechanism for causality isn't presently known doesn't mean one necessarily doesn't exist, though I do think astrology has a long way to go to be seen as legitimate, and that some of its systems -- houses, aspects, signs, elements -- may be found as wrong or false

Like Gaugelin found that signs and aspects were statistically insignificant, but that the position of planets in certain parts of the sky correlated with archetypally-related temperment types and professional achievement. like the mars effect. cold and stiffness related to saturn. If he is right then astrology may be very bear-bones.

I agree that astrology is useless for predictions; the archetypes are too general for that. But given (in my experience at least) how acausally cyclical much of life is, trends, narratives, history, I find it plausible for astrology to work synchronistically

I do see overlap between astrology and mbti too though, as astrology relates to all psychological aspects of life, including the cognitive; mercury specifically so.

For example I find descriptions of capricorns and SJs are similar; duty and responsibility, reliability, preservation mindset
 

iauiugu

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My virgoness (sun conjunct ceres) and infjness are odd bed-fellows, it seems, as the isxj match-up isn't quite right. I have a very earthy chart, but am NF.

I have a capricorn moon, but I'm far from practical there either.

I am particularly (internally) structured/judgey and introverted though, which is 50%.

My partner is a Libra (Sun conjunct Mars) intj

And I've had a Cancer entj friend. don't know his chart at all.

Since these descriptions are from the sun sign description of each sign, of course it wouldn't be exact (like with daily sun horoscopes) but these seem like fair analogs from the sun sign descriptions i've read. I don't know them as well as the planets though. I wonder if any of the other planets or moon in the signs could be similarly typed.
 

á´…eparted

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Why would others necessarily fit with their natal charts because of statistics and the forer effect, while you yourself relate so much to your own? do you feel your perception is similarly effected?

Just because a mechanism for causality isn't presently known doesn't mean one necessarily doesn't exist, though I do think astrology has a long way to go to be seen as legitimate, and that some of its systems -- houses, aspects, signs, elements -- may be found as wrong or false

Like Gaugelin found that signs and aspects were statistically insignificant, but that the position of planets in certain parts of the sky correlated with archetypally-related temperment types and professional achievement. like the mars effect. cold and stiffness related to saturn. If he is right then astrology may be very bear-bones.

I agree that astrology is useless for predictions; the archetypes are too general for that. But given (in my experience at least) how acausally cyclical much of life is, trends, narratives, history, I find it plausible for astrology to work synchronistically

I do see overlap between astrology and mbti too though, as astrology relates to all psychological aspects of life, including the cognitive; mercury specifically so.

For example I find descriptions of capricorns and SJs are similar; duty and responsibility, reliability, preservation mindset

I'm atheist- there is no substantive evidence to support astrology. I've met people who fit their charts perfectly and they identify with them. I've met others where they don't at all; you have to strain to make it fit.

As I said, it's a fun toy. The only reason I still identify with mine is because I was raised with astrology. Similar to how ex-catholics can still find enjoyment in going to the occasional mass.

My chart fits me; I'm massively plutonian. It, and my MBTI type does not fit the patterns proposed in this thread at all.
 

iauiugu

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I'm atheist- there is no substantive evidence to support astrology. I've met people who fit their charts perfectly and they identify with them. I've met others where they don't at all; you have to strain to make it fit.

As I said, it's a fun toy. The only reason I still identify with mine is because I was raised with astrology. Similar to how ex-catholics can still find enjoyment in going to the occasional mass.

My chart fits me; I'm massively plutonian. It, and my MBTI type does not fit the patterns proposed in this thread at all.

I don't see astrology as necessarily theistic; if anything i see it as an affirmation of the determinism and total limits of free will and self-expression within the metasocial boundaries of the seasons. what would be evidence for astrology? statistical measures? a concretization of its symbolic language with systematized reliability?

Also as an ex-catholic I have no desire to go to a Mass again. the church grounded me in the good-evil paridigm, but also historically and recently considered parts of me on the evil side. the new pope seems cool, but i prefer the systems i use now. i'd go back if the church offered me something i couldn't get better elsewhere, but it doesn't.

your moon-pluto-mars-saturn sextiles and trines seem ENTJy. i don't see my type in my chart. i just got pluto sextile to the point of my one yod, not something that seems as strong as saturn and uranus, or my sun conjunct ceres and mercury in virgo; very t and s. my aspects make sense to me regardless. but so does being an infj.
 
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