How To Discern Extraverted vs Introverted Intuition

[grey_beard]

The first thing that strikes me, without spending much time in reflection, is that these three statements are problematic:

When solving problems, I frequently have an "aha" moment which seems to come out of nowhere - this is true of most humans, never mind Ni doms, so it isn't a good barometer of Ni-style intuition specifically from a quiz perspective.

If I get a new insight, it energizes me - Ne feels the same way, it's the juice, so this is not exclusive to Ni, and every Ne user would probably check that box.

I'm good at synthesizing a lot of information, understanding complex patterns and arriving at insights - I agree with the magpie - mulcher comparison ( [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] ), but that doesn't mean Ni is inherently taking in more information, and I think the idea of synthesis / aggregation get conflated somewhat. Ni can be a silo and goes very deep but the focus, almost by necessity, has to be narrow from an energetic investment. Ne is broadly exploratory and from my perspective, aggregates far more raw data, but Ne seldom processes that in an Ni - type way. It's like having thousands of puzzle pieces but never taking the time to sit down and see what the puzzle makes. Maybe you actually have the pieces to three puzzles in there, and they are seldom sorted or categorized in a way that makes them useful.

I also like the metaphor of a shotgun vs a rifle. Ne the shotgun, Ni the rifle. Both can get the job done I suppose, but aiming Ne can be like targetting the broad side of a barn.

Couple other points. A shotgun is of limited range...as I read somewhere, Ne can tell you what everyone in the room will do...for the next few seconds. Ne is "scattershot" it doesn't know what it's aiming at, but it knows it is gonna hit something interesting. Ni, like a rifle, yep: it has a scope, and has tunnel vision, but by God it zeroes in...and hits the target.

Well *done*. INFPs always ignite my brain.

 

[great_bay]

Ne- What could happen
Ni- What's going to happen

 

[Forever]

Ne- What could happen
Ni- What's going to happen

No

If the Ne user does correctly guess what does happen, that would just confuse them more now would they?

 

[highlander]

Please.

This question is bad.

Try this one instead

It would be most helpful

 

[PeaceBaby]

Going with this... Ni is about forming a concept of how reality develops under certain assumptions/interpretations (skeptical that current or suggested ideas or ways of framing things will lead to any change), whereas Ne is about exploring possible interpretations (aka assumptions - but many! as many as it can!) for reality that can lead to change (takes for granted that these possibilities are, well, possibilities, or that they will lead to any deeper change).

Exactly, this is very well drawn. For Ne, all of the possibilities fan out as connected dots, while Ni is more like a 3D Venn diagram. Ne sees things as connected, Ni sees things as intersected.

What's a fascinating thing to me though is how the Ni attitude filters down through all of the cognitive functional layers with the assumption of seeing everything rather than recognizing the siloing inherent in the function. Notice how we can be in here talking about Ni and you and I both know that Ne is not as depth-oriented as Ni, and we're not going to even entertain the notion that it is, and we're not struggling to assert any type of depth. It doesn't ping our ego need to be recognized, here. Yet from years on the forum of examining attitudes, I've observed that nearly everyone leading with Ni believes their own extraverted function IS AS DEEP as their introverted counterparts (exception Se; it's the one place Ni dom will cede competency, and that's at least partially fueled by the dislike for Si). This filtered attitude of proficiency very much colors the tertiary as well. You and I again would likely both agree that our tertiary is .. troublesome. At a certain point we are able to compare it to the consistency of our dom function & see it as not being, well, as reliable or clear or deep. Yet every Ni type apparently rocks the tert. Now, since we're talking about a system, only one attitude is more reflective of "reality". Is everyone "good" at all functions or are they hierarchical? Since the system is hierarchical by design, the answer should be apparent.

I think to deter Ne types from choosing Ni answers (as well as all extroverted preferences from finding introverted answers appealing, ie Fe types choosing Fi answers, Te types choosing Ti answers, etc), you may have to touch on the stuff the extroverted attitude doesn't really value. It will seem superfluous to them because they take aspects of it for granted, and it may appear narrow and dismissive towards some of what they are taking for granted.

Yes. To repeat, since we're talking about a system, only one attitude is more reflective of reality. From a logical perspective of looking within the confines of this system, you aren't naturally "good" at all of your functions. And empirically, I don't see Ni doms exhibiting the proficiency in the aux or tert function as one might expect if the prevailing Ni attitude of proficiency over all functional pockets were in fact true either. So, you are going to get Pi doms (Ni in particular) checking boxes that they shouldn't be checking too, since this belief about themselves, not necessarily reflective of true capabilities, prevails. An Ni dom will see a lot of Ne being true, and a lot of Ti or Fi being true in particular.

Now, if anyone has read this far, you might be all like, "Aww PB, why you shitting on teh Ni doms again?" But I'm not placing any value judgements on these observations, and any that you might draw are coming from you, dear reader, not me. Because, fascinatingly and paradoxically, this belief of capability also enables the Ni dom to enact a vision simply by virtue of the belief of competency itself. This belief, one that's capable of fueling ideas into reality, can be an awesome thing, and like all things, can either be good or bad -- outcomes really depend on the person, the time and the circumstance, very complex. Whereas for a Ji dom, thinking an idea into reality can all fall apart as too many scenarios in our mind can lead to negative outcomes even with good intention, and without certainty of believing that outcome to be good, it can be easier to do nothing at all. I love playing with the question that I pondered after watching the Matrix for the first time: was Neo the One because he was the One or because at no time did someone not believe him to be the One and this belief was what shaped reality? Is fun to entertain.

And as an aside -- what I've written above is why Fi and Ti dominant types often experience frustration with our Pi dom peers and struggle to assert our dominant function. We do have an ego need, here. You're not a Ji dom. If Pi doms truly saw everything, logic alone would suggest that they would understand Ji dominant thinking patterns but this doesn't happen. I don't want to expand much on that here but might later in my blog.

To conclude the rambling, I haven't thought of ways to formulate questions yet that would help in the differentiation though. I'm making some observations here that could possibly play into larger conclusions or actions. Connecting dots. I'll think on it some more.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here's one contrast

Ne can play with and find connections between any two concepts: What are the similarities and differences between X and Y
This page of funny analogies strikes me like a Ne playground
"Common sense is like deodorant, those who need it the most never use it"
"When someone doesn't like something, it's often because they're not familiar with it, or they're too familiar with it."
"A relationship without trust is like a cell phone without service, all you can do is play games"
"Life gives you plenty of time to do whatever you want to do if you stay in the present moment." Deepak Chopra
I think the bolded sentence would resonate with Ne that has a desire to explore, and has some present moment focus, although I remember reading that Jung said Ne is good at predicting political outcomes and sociological processes.


Ni would be more likely to relate concepts to a more internal, singular core. These kinds of statements attempt to capture the whole of reality into a singular construct that would apply to all information coming in.
"Never did nature say one thing and wisdom say another"
"We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future" George Bernard Shaw
"The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances"
I think the bolded sentence would resonance with most strongly Ni people.

I think the extroverted functions tend to construct ideas like a spiderweb of interconnections, while introverted functions tend to construct ideas like a fractal pattern such as a tree where there is some core concept to which they all connect. You could present questions that offer quotes that represent the function, but instead of saying "I am like this", they are phrases that simply resonate or not with the person reading. This may work for other functions as well. Then people are not reporting their internalized self image, but instead are responding to ideas that appeal to them.

 

[Fidelia]

Please.

This question is bad.

Try this one instead

It would be most helpful

I think that people need a chance to throw around ideas more before they'll be able to offer you that. Sometimes the discussion part is what helps refine or define what's distinctive. I agree though that when it comes down to formulating questions, this is the format you need rather than you just throwing more and more questions out and people shooting them down as not viable.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I rarely see the need for confusion among Ne and Ni doms/auxs. They are so different.
[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] made a good post elaborating some of these differences.

Basically when it comes to receiving truckloads of information Ne dom/aux and Ni dom/aux react completely differently. Ne's welcome it and see it as a truckload of 'goodies' and are often disappointed there isn't more. Ni dom/aux look at the same thing and it rattles their brains because it's 'information overload' as in 'holy cow, slow the heck down and let me assimilate this shit.'

 

[PeaceBaby]

I rarely see the need for confusion among Ne and Ni doms/auxs. They are so different.
[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] made a good post elaborating some of these differences.

Basically when it comes to receiving truckloads of information Ne dom/aux and Ni dom/aux react completely differently. Ne's welcome it and see it as a truckload of 'goodies' and are often disappointed there isn't more. Ni dom/aux look at the same thing and it rattles their brains because it's 'information overload' as in 'holy cow, slow the heck down and let me assimilate this shit.'

Good comment - perhaps the factors of speed and volume should be included in the questions for the sake of discernment.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I rarely see the need for confusion among Ne and Ni doms/auxs. They are so different.
[MENTION=14857]labyrinthine[/MENTION] made a good post elaborating some of these differences.

Basically when it comes to receiving truckloads of information Ne dom/aux and Ni dom/aux react completely differently. Ne's welcome it and see it as a truckload of 'goodies' and are often disappointed there isn't more. Ni dom/aux look at the same thing and it rattles their brains because it's 'information overload' as in 'holy cow, slow the heck down and let me assimilate this shit.'

How does this relate to different kinds of information coming in? Some people fatigue on hearing too much emotional information, or too much technical information, or even too much sensory input. Intuitive data would include the underlying patterns behind those other kinds of information. From my perspective there are certain kinds of information that shut me down and other types I can hear ongoing.

As a Ne-dom do you have stamina for all kinds of information or is there any selective element to what kinds of information you take in truckloads?

 

[ZNP-TBA]

How does this relate to different kinds of information coming in? Some people fatigue on hearing too much emotional information, or too much technical information, or even too much sensory input. Intuitive data would include the underlying patterns behind those other kinds of information. From my perspective there are certain kinds of information that shut me down and other types I can hear ongoing.

As a Ne-dom do you have stamina for all kinds of information or is there any selective element to what kinds of information you take in truckloads?

Depends on the person I suppose.

From a JCF standpoint I think it would be how Ni/Ne relates to the other functions in the stack. The discerning factor is the judging function backing up Ne or Ni which also determines how it relates.

I like information in general but my 'selective element' is Ti and also Fe to a lesser extent. Stuff is usually interesting to me if it can relate to some logical framework I have in my head versus an emotional one.

Your distinction here is good and informative. I can 'handle' emotional information it's just that I end up tuning a lot of it out since I don't know what to really do with it. I don't mean to sound callous but I'm more interested in the ideas people can generate more so than the people themselves if that makes any sense.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

I relate about 50/50 to both

 

[entropie]

Ne
I notice patterns as they surface and trust they will go somewhere
I enjoy playing with random interconnections and patterns

Ni
I try to foresee the implications and likely effects
I come up with new ways of seeing things

To me the logical likelihood of someone "forseeing" the future and of seeing new things is much more bigger when you build on experience. Making billions of patterns between things brings you experience over the years.

The sole saying that Ni may possess some magical qualities of forseeing the future, following the philosophical principle of induction, I dont believe in.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Please.

This question is bad.

Try this one instead

It would be most helpful

I could relate strongly to literally every point in the OP. Ne and Ni. I am going to respond in this ^ format. My new info suggestions will be in blue and the previous questions will remain black. I am not including any factors having to do with other functions being applied to Ne or Ni.

I am SURE people can correct me on some points and that overall: it can be greatly improved upon


Ne


1. I take information & ideas from the external world and use it to form connections in my head.


2. I notice patterns as they surface and trust they will go somewhere

I prefer fluid or non-traditional ways of looking at things & attacking challenges.


3. I enjoy playing with random interconnections and patterns

When I look at the root of something, ideas spring out like branches on a tree.


4. I keep following tangents and new ideas without limiting myself to one

I like to brainstorm (even out loud) and keep my options open which sometimes makes making firm or confidant decisions a challenge.


5. I am constantly generating new ideas and creative ways of doing things

I get energy from thinking of unconventional possibilities/solutions and debating ideas.


6. I wonder what else is possible

I enjoy playing “Devil’s Advocate”, and don’t mind contradicting myself if it serves exploring all sides of a situation.


7. I grasp what is going on behind the scenes and under the surface


8. I consider possibilities that I may or may not act on

I get an energy from considering possibilities whether they are followed through on or not. I often follow periods of high energy with time alone.


9. I play hunches and trust my intuition


10. I think about the present and how it affects the future

I think about the present, may become bored easily and enjoy beginning new endeavours.


11. I’m good at picking up at emerging patterns

I am good at discerning emerging patterns and using metaphors that will become more complex or clear, as the conversation progresses.


12. I enjoy digging into concepts, finding what they are made of and where they will lead.




Ni


1. I take thought processes and apply connections to them, to make sense of the external world.


2. I try to foresee the implications and likely effects

I often have a singular vision or solution that makes it possible to move forward with confidence. People sometimes think my intuition is magical or prophetic.


3. I come up with new ways of seeing things

I often see things as ‘images’ rather than words.


4. When solving problems, I frequently have an "aha" moment which seems to come out of nowhere.

I don’t directly observe things simply for what they are. I apply my knowledge to them, which allows me to form symbols and systems to see things in a new way.


5. I’m good at synthesizing a lot of information, understanding complex patterns and arriving at insights

I observe things concretely, while compiling info that helps me discern a specific underlying pattern and draw connections.


6. I develop a fundamental change in the approach or underlying assumptions

My experience contributes to my possessing a universal framework. If new pieces don’t fit I modify my model or ignore that data until a more pleasing or convenient time to adapt it.


7. I think about the long range future


8. If I get a new insight, it energizes me

New insights energize me. It can be difficult to judge what possibilities should be eliminated when presented with too many options.


9. I search for the most important patterns and themes to understand meaning and significance

When I draw upon the past, I am easily able to recall impressions, patterns and “essences” along with specific details.


10. I envision solutions to problems that others haven't yet recognized

I can bring data collected from the past to mind and meld it with new information in the present to intuit a ‘whole’.


11. I come up with new ideas or perspectives by synthesizing various opposing points of view

I am able to have new ideas or find perspective that result from many ideas funnelling down to a point of clear understanding.


12. I enjoy thinking about concepts, analyzing them and fitting them into an overall picture.

 

[Obfuscate]

this seems silly... i do all of those things... i do favor intuition over thinking (but not by much)... i do not approve of this division of functions...

post script:

i really did try my best to favor one list over the other... i couldn't...

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Interestingly, I weakened the focus on this because what I found is the INFJs did not have the same type of long term future orientation as much as the INTJs and so the questions were not working. I'm still a little torn on this. As an INTJ, I am totally about the long term and it is a distinguishing characteristic of all my thinking.

I think for infjs, we need a thing to have a timelessness about it- we're not just future-oriented, but I think we're..... not-right-now-oriented. The word "consistency" comes up for us (INFJs) a lot. For the same reason 'repeatability' is an important part of the scientific method. Ne dom/aux seem to have a tendency to be able to completely believe something new based on a priori reasoning alone (and seem to get very frustrated/impatient when a priori reasoning alone isn't enough to convince the person they're talking to).

This^ isn't for highlander so much as brainstorming to figure out how to eventually put it in question form for him.

[Heavily edited post- I was on my phone and in a hurry when I first posted.]

 

[burymecloser]

I'm a Ne-aux with strong tertiary Si; take my comments as you please.

Ne
I notice patterns as they surface and trust they will go somewhere
I enjoy playing with play with random interconnections and patterns
I keep following tangents and new ideas without limiting myself to one
I am constantly generating new ideas and creative ways of doing things
I wonder what else is possible
I grasp what is going on behind the scenes and under the surface (not sure about this)
I consider possibilities that I may or may not act on
I play hunches and trust my intuition
I think about the present and how it affects the future
I'm good at picking up at emerging patterns

I identify with most of this, especially #3 (keep following tangents) and #7 (consider possibilities), though the latter might be specific to INTPs, rather than applying more broadly to Ne. It's very hard for me to speak to Ni, but I definitely identified more with this list than that one. The one item I would remove from the Ni list is "If I get a new insight, it energizes me" -- that is definitely true for Ne-users as well. New ideas are exciting.

Ne


1. I take information & ideas from the external world and use it to form connections in my head.


2. I notice patterns as they surface and trust they will go somewhere

I prefer fluid or non-traditional ways of looking at things & attacking challenges.


3. I enjoy playing with random interconnections and patterns

When I look at the root of something, ideas spring out like branches on a tree.


4. I keep following tangents and new ideas without limiting myself to one

I like to brainstorm (even out loud) and keep my options open which sometimes makes making firm or confidant decisions a challenge.


5. I am constantly generating new ideas and creative ways of doing things

I get energy from thinking of unconventional possibilities/solutions and debating ideas.


6. I wonder what else is possible

I enjoy playing “Devil’s Advocate”, and don’t mind contradicting myself if it serves exploring all sides of a situation.


7. I grasp what is going on behind the scenes and under the surface


8. I consider possibilities that I may or may not act on

I get an energy from considering possibilities whether they are followed through on or not. I often follow periods of high energy with time alone.


9. I play hunches and trust my intuition


10. I think about the present and how it affects the future

I think about the present, may become bored easily and enjoy beginning new endeavours.


11. I’m good at picking up at emerging patterns

I am good at discerning emerging patterns and using metaphors that will become more complex or clear, as the conversation progresses.


12. I enjoy digging into concepts, finding what they are made of and where they will lead.

Thanks Cloudpatrol for contributing these ideas. For me personally, I prefer Highlander's list to this one. Phrases like "When I look at the root of something, ideas spring out like branches on a tree" strike me as a Ni approach to defining Ne. Possibly it's just me.

I do think "I like to brainstorm (even out loud) and keep my options open, which sometimes makes firm or confident decisions a challenge" is a good addition to the list, though I suppose that could be a Ti-Ne thing.

Several posts in this thread have mentioned boredom as a Ne characteristic. I think it's more of a Se characteristic. I think Se-users prefer to have some kind of external stimulation, while Ne'ers can often entertain ourselves, and are more likely to get caught up in our own thoughts and ideas. I'll be reading a book or watching tv, and I'll stop to pace around and go over an idea.

To the extent boredom is a Ne characteristic, I think we're most likely to become bored when we're not learning new things. New information gives us ideas to leap off from. Does that resonate with any other Ne-users? I get bored when I'm not learning new things?

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=9256]burymecloser[/MENTION] [MENTION=29287]Obfuscate[/MENTION]

Thanks for the feedback!

I am not one who values generalizations much. So I relied on conversations with other Ne and Ni user's, and pulled out things they said to form the questions. ie. The "tree branching out" metaphor was provided by an ENTP who leans pretty heavily towards Ne. That being said, maybe he sometimes approaches things from a standpoint of Ni reasoning? I don't know him very well yet.

I have noticed in this thread and in previous convo's about Ne and Ni (and Fe and Fi) that - although we can sense similarities in each other's usage - it's difficult to gain a consensus. That experiences can be individual. Maybe that is what makes it difficult to provide a general questionnaire?

My supposition at this point is that, our experience with these functions is highly dependant on: the degree to which we possess them and {more importantly} how we use other functions to process and support them.

What do you Guy's think?

 

[Smilephantomhive]

I had the same thought. What would the questions be - in a simple way that won't confuse people?

"Do you tend to start with one solution and end up with many, or do you start with many and end up with one? "

 

[Virtual ghost]

I have noticed that the Kiersey Jung Test could give better results on Ni vs. Ne. People are tending to score high on both or low on both including not as much differentiation as I'd hoped. I would like to try and improve them. These are the respective lists of questions which are indicative of each function being used. Any thoughts or opinions on how to improve them?

Ne
I notice patterns as they surface and trust they will go somewhere
I enjoy playing with random interconnections and patterns
I keep following tangents and new ideas without limiting myself to one
I am constantly generating new ideas and creative ways of doing things
I wonder what else is possible
I grasp what is going on behind the scenes and under the surface
I consider possibilities that I may or may not act on
I play hunches and trust my intuition
I think about the present and how it affects the future
I'm good at picking up at emerging patterns


Ni
I try to foresee the implications and likely effects
I come up with new ways of seeing things
When solving problems, I frequently have an "aha" moment which seems to come out of nowhere
I'm good at synthesizing a lot of information, understanding complex patterns and arriving at insights
I develop a fundamental change in the approach or underlying assumptions
I think about the long range future
If I get a new insight, it energizes me
I search for the most important patterns and themes to understand meaning and significance
I envision solutions to problems that others haven't yet recognized
I come up with new ideas or perspectives by synthesizing various opposing points of view

I relate much more to the Ni questions. I do Ne stuff as well but not so often or so deliberately.

The problem is that both of this is N stuff and therefore it is unreasonable to expect that typical strong N person will be able to see the difference all the time.
Therefore the only reasonable things that I see as good options are:

1. Link the questions more towards Se and Si that come with the packages,
2. Try to make Ne sound more creative and Ni more task/goal oriented, since that is parhaps the most basic difference.