Please Explain The Logic... Why Cant Someone Be An INNP? Or ESSJ?

[hurl3y4456]

Hi everyone! Ive always been interested in MBTI but recently Ive been taking some time off work, picked up 'Gifts Differing' by Isabel Myers Briggs and have delved back into it a little deeper! I now understand the theory that every human has a dominant extrovert process, and a dominant introvert one.

I think its a stroke of genius that Jung/MB managed to deduce what the four optional processes were - and from my own observations of people, and who they are attracted to friend-wise and romantic-wise, I think its accurate. As a self typed INFJ, my best friend is an INFP and I am romantically drawn to ENFP females, in a pretty textbook way. As in I only like ENFP females, and MBTI predicts that.

My question is not to do with MBTI not standing up to observation, but one of internal logic:

Why cant someone have Intuition as both their dominant introvert and extrovert process? Or Sensing or Feeling or Thinking? Why cant all four functions be present in a person's introvert and extrovert processes? Why the dichotomy, the division? Does anyone know what the reasoning is for this?

I find it odd that you'd only like ENFP females....There's overlap between types, which implies certain attractions between types will overlap (set theory)....Suppose each type is represented as a set. If we take the entire population, you will find that there will exist inclusion among all types as well as exclusion in terms of attributes. Some types will orient toward other spheres such that inclusion is predominant relative to other types. If you confine all ENFP's within a larger sphere encompassing each individual sphere, you will find that such attributes will be spread broadly to encompass all other types. Let's define your standards within a separate set. Based on your premise, the set is mutually exclusive from all types with exception of ENFP....Based on the aforementioned assertion, your premise only holds if and only if there exists unique traits for all ENFP's which attract you toward them. Assuming you have a certain level of standards that have to be met, it would follow that only ENFP unique attributes meet the requirement. But this would imply that your set of standards is confined so much so that it exists outside all other types (such that no overlap exists)...I believe there is possibility that some attribute is spread among all types (since all functions can be represented in some order)....Therefore, there is very likely overlap for some types other than enfp.

 

[Non_xsense]

Lets' suppose someone is INNP (....>Ne > Ni >....). We know that our minds can divert energy internally or externally....If more energy is directed inward, then less energy is directed outward. For intuition to be initiated, it needs a reference point. Both Ne and Ni are fed by external input over time, however, Ni seeks closure whereas Ne seeks expansion. Imagine your life is composed of a sphere of collected input (xyz plane) which have a fixed density. Ni is an evolving function meaning that it will pull a multitude of past data points over time stored within subconscious and create an singular point of higher density. Ne is a dissipating function meaning that it will transcend the initial data points and create endless possibilities that diverge from the initial input, causing the original density to dissipate. The rate of dissipation depends on the strength of Ne usage....If it's a dominant function, then the rate will be higher relative to secondary only due to usage frequency. Now, since Ne succeeds Ni in this case, it will follow that the density of each original input will decrease, which implies that the frequency of Ni usage is greatly increased ( a certain density is required to initiate). Thus, these two functions are opposing in terms of frequency, which contradicts the function orientation.

That is fascinating , thinking funtions as a cycle is quite crazy similar to almost every aspect of life ... which it can explain why my intj father and me Intp son xD have some crazy initial fights but after some time we reach same conclusion xD.

I'm not a native english speaker , so i can't express my self totally how i wanted but if we use that point of view .. that means that almost every Ne vs Ni way of thinking and viceversa is using some kind of the contrary funtions and the 100% of one perspective is fucking rare .

can we actually create a formula from that? xDDD.

 

[tommyc]

I've given some thought to the matter, and here is my take on it.

When speaking of raw information, I am referring to the information from the senses which has not undergone further processing.

So, take the example of sight. From a raw perspective, the only information that you are getting from sight is a sea of colour. That's it. Now, say you're looking at a chair. From a raw perspective, all you're seeing is the brown of the wood in a particular shape. What Se does is that it perceives that you are staring at a chair - i.e. it integrates the information from the senses into a whole object. Note that it doesn't actually call it a chair, because a) Se it non-verbal, and b) Se doesn't generalise, it just perceives the object in front of it which we know as a chair.

It is also perceives salience - different features of the environment will stand out more than others, and it naturally focuses on what stands out the most (but also scans the environment in general to see what is there). When considering raw processing, nothing really stands out.

So, I am against the idea that extroverted sensing is somehow equivalent to the 5 senses. I believe that the Sensing functions are not actually the senses, but are a layer of processing which differentiates one object from another.

--

Check this out:

Sensation (psychology) - Wikipedia



So, I believe that the term "Sensation" in reference to a particular (Jungian) cognitive function(s) is a misleading term, because it's not actually sensation, it's a form of perception.

--

Furthermore, this part may be distinguishing extroverted from introverted perception:



However, I would like each of those 2 components to be further divided into their S (detail) and N (pattern) forms.

Thank you for this response Legion!! I am grateful you took the time to think it through so deeply. I must say I agree. It also corresponds with Buddhist teachings. I once read an account of a monk's Enlightenment moment when he described being so aware of all his processes that he felt able to CHOOSE how he perceived his sensations. His perception was not reflexive and automatic anymore. Indeed Buddhism teaches us to look at the world as it is, without trying to quantify it and label it. So in your words, experience the sensations without the perception.

 

[hurl3y4456]

That is fascinating , thinking funtions as a cycle is quite crazy similar to almost every aspect of life ... which it can explain why my intj father and me Intp son xD have some crazy initial fights but after some time we reach same conclusion xD.

I'm not a native english speaker , so i can't express my self totally how i wanted but if we use that point of view .. that means that almost every Ne vs Ni way of thinking and viceversa is using some kind of the contrary funtions and the 100% of one perspective is fucking rare .

can we actually create a formula from that? xDDD.

Interesting...You being an INTP makes it easier to control Ne divergence, which maintains the original density by further refining ideas via Ti. In fact, the introverted functions are responsible for condensing mass (knowledge/ideas, exc) into a more compact form. But as you know, the more ideas that are spurred from the mind, the more faded the previous ideas become (hence dissipated)....Unless refined by Ti, it becomes increasingly difficult to stay on track....Thus, you and your Dad (INTJ) most likely arrive to same conclusions due to the refinement process.

I could make a formula, however, my theories should be taken as a grain of salt.

 

[tommyc]

Lets' suppose someone is INNP (....>Ne > Ni >....). We know that our minds can divert energy internally or externally....If more energy is directed inward, then less energy is directed outward. For intuition to be initiated, it needs a reference point. Both Ne and Ni are fed by external input over time, however, Ni seeks closure whereas Ne seeks expansion. Imagine your life is composed of a sphere of collected input (xyz plane) which have a fixed density. Ni is an evolving function meaning that it will pull a multitude of past data points over time stored within subconscious and create an singular point of higher density. Ne is a dissipating function meaning that it will transcend the initial data points and create endless possibilities that diverge from the initial input, causing the original density to dissipate. The rate of dissipation depends on the strength of Ne usage....If it's a dominant function, then the rate will be higher relative to secondary only due to usage frequency. Now, since Ne succeeds Ni in this case, it will follow that the density of each original input will decrease, which implies that the frequency of Ni usage is greatly increased( a certain density is required to initiate). Thus, these two functions are opposing in terms of frequency, which contradicts the function orientation.

Goddamn - read it thru three times and cant quite wrap my head around this. I think what youre saying, in simplistic terms, is that Ne and Ni are opposing forces, energy wise, so if theyre both active at the same they cancel each other out, negate each other, or perhaps create a personality black hole which would rupture the space time continuum and send us all hurtling into an infinite abyss.

 

[raskol]

The diagram in the post I linked - and I assume it reflects Jung's writings accurately, though it may not - puts the shadow as between consciousness and unconsciousness, whereas the anima is between the personal and collective unconscious. So that would make the shadow subconscious, and thus associated for example with the inferior function, but the anima is being wholly unconscious.

We should have consulted the wiki. As you can tell from the illustration, the shadow captures the reversal of the ego/persona, i.e., functions 5 and 6. Meanwhile, the anima stands opposed to the ego, leading with functions 4 and 3.

As indicated, the hero/persona are joined together, facing the anima and superego (demon-trickster) respectively.

 

[Forest Nymph]

I think MBTI is inherently Ti as a system, so there may of course be flaws in the system - that's the problem with Ti, it can be right sometimes but other times it can sound super logical but be built on a foundation of shit instead of stone, so you have to watch out for that - therefore, you're welcome to come up with a new system if this one seems flawed to you.

I think Te operates within the framework of the established system, so would simply give you an explanation why each particular category exists, what it consists of, and why it can't be repeated.

I am personally not in the mood to deconstruct it at the moment, but that's my view, in summary.

 

[Pionart]

We should have consulted the wiki. As you can tell from the illustration, the shadow captures the reversal of the ego/persona, i.e., functions 5 and 6. Meanwhile, the anima stands opposed to the ego, leading with functions 4 and 3.

As indicated, the hero/persona are joined together, facing the anima and superego (demon-trickster) respectively.

Well, for another source backing up my view, there's this: Steps of the Individuation Process

In the individuation process, we first encounter the shadow, then the anima/animus, and then the wise old man/woman.

That fits with how I conceptualise myself.

 

[raskol]

Well, for another source backing up my view, there's this: Steps of the Individuation Process

Thanks for the link.

In the individuation process, we first encounter the shadow, then the anima/animus, and then the wise old man/woman.

Following the site, I found the definition of the Old Wise Man/Woman as the embodiment of the collective unconscious or the Self (or superego in Freudian psychoanalysis or socionics). That connection clarifies the sheer terror of this encounter, and how it ties in with self-becoming.

 

[Non_xsense]

Goddamn - read it thru three times and cant quite wrap my head around this. I think what youre saying, in simplistic terms, is that Ne and Ni are opposing forces, energy wise, so if theyre both active at the same they cancel each other out, negate each other, or perhaps create a personality black hole which would rupture the space time continuum and send us all hurtling into an infinite abyss.

Actually is more like inversely proportional ( This is why you always you get your tests in porcentages rather than just yes and no ), diferents starting points. Intp and intj in cognitive funtions tests they get High Ni/ Ne and Te/Ti if they have some time to think others perspectives .

It's pretty normal for intp getting higher Ni than Ne in cheaps internet tests ( alot of mystypes here for sure ) but we descard Ni perspectives 'cause it's not logical probable .
We are more in socionics rather than mbti ( which i didn't read alot sadly ).

 

[Pionart]

Thanks for the link.

Following the site, I found the definition of the Old Wise Man/Woman as the embodiment of the collective unconscious or the Self (or superego in Freudian psychoanalysis or socionics). That connection clarifies the sheer terror of this encounter, and how it ties in with self-becoming.

Oh yeah there is definitely terror associated with that archetype. I've assimilated the shadow and anima and am currently in the wise old man stage. (I think this is a natural process for everyone's development but some are more aware of what is going on) - and there have been some very scary psychic events.

I think wise old man/woman is distinct from self. Self is both the unification of persona+shadow+anima/animus+wise old man/woman as well as being a distinct archetype/stage in its own right. It doesn't stop at self though.

I think what happens is that we first assimilate the 8 functions (well, as a baby/toddler we're assimilating pre-cognitive aspects of being) and this typically, I think, completes in late adolescence/early adulthood, whereupon we go through the more universal archetypes of persona, shadow etc. and something more self-transcendent occurs by middle age (the "mid-life crisis"). Similar story for everyone, and the archetypal approach is just one approach, and people's own experiences are unique to them.

 

[Non_xsense]

Oh yeah there is definitely terror associated with that archetype. I've assimilated the shadow and anima and am currently in the wise old man stage. (I think this is a natural process for everyone's development but some are more aware of what is going on) - and there have been some very scary psychic events.

I think wise old man/woman is distinct from self. Self is both the unification of persona+shadow+anima/animus+wise old man/woman as well as being a distinct archetype/stage in its own right. It doesn't stop at self though.

I think what happens is that we first assimilate the 8 functions (well, as a baby/toddler we're assimilating pre-cognitive aspects of being) and this typically, I think, completes in late adolescence/early adulthood, whereupon we go through the more universal archetypes of persona, shadow etc. and something more self-transcendent occurs by middle age (the "mid-life crisis"). Similar story for everyone, and the archetypal approach is just one approach, and people's own experiences are unique to them.

Fascinating actually i have trought every perspective and live every part of that article .... and i'm not even old xD.
It's intriguing 'cause most ppl think of me as Intj or infj from a superficial perspective of course i'm not close to that from my mind ...i guess i always was an artsy intp even if i studied physic(astronomy mention ) for 2 years before musical composition.

I don't know if it's even possible but when i was a kid i was 5w6 ennegram but after so many years of studying art my mind shifted to 5w4 which using this individualition process at least can be probable.

 

[Pionart]

Fascinating actually i have trought every perspective and live every part of that article .... and i'm not even old xD.
It's intriguing 'cause most ppl think of me as Intj or infj from a superficial perspective of course i'm not close to that from my mind ...i guess i always was an artsy intp even if i studied physic(astonomic mention ) for 2 years before musical composition.

I don't know if it's even possible but when i was a kid i was 5w6 ennegram but after so many years of studying art my mind shifted to 5w4 which using this individualition process at least can be probable.

There are different scales upon which the archetypes apply. There are smaller scales, where yes you can elevate to very high levels more briefly, but also a more macro-scale which applies to the entire lifetime.

 

[Pionart]

Oh yeah there is definitely terror associated with that archetype. I've assimilated the shadow and anima and am currently in the wise old man stage. (I think this is a natural process for everyone's development but some are more aware of what is going on) - and there have been some very scary psychic events.

I think wise old man/woman is distinct from self. Self is both the unification of persona+shadow+anima/animus+wise old man/woman as well as being a distinct archetype/stage in its own right. It doesn't stop at self though.

I think what happens is that we first assimilate the 8 functions (well, as a baby/toddler we're assimilating pre-cognitive aspects of being) and this typically, I think, completes in late adolescence/early adulthood, whereupon we go through the more universal archetypes of persona, shadow etc. and something more self-transcendent occurs by middle age (the "mid-life crisis"). Similar story for everyone, and the archetypal approach is just one approach, and people's own experiences are unique to them.

By the way I don't know how accurate this actually is, it's just a theory I'm working on/trying to figure out.

 

[hurl3y4456]

Goddamn - read it thru three times and cant quite wrap my head around this. I think what youre saying, in simplistic terms, is that Ne and Ni are opposing forces, energy wise, so if theyre both active at the same they cancel each other out, negate each other, or perhaps create a personality black hole which would rupture the space time continuum and send us all hurtling into an infinite abyss.

Well since you use Ni, you'll understand that essentially you are formulating (subconsciously) a mapping of elements in space to a singular element.... Over time, it becomes more developed so that the frequency between insights is reduced (to an extent as age hinders the mind's rate of processing). Essentially, Ni is an evolving function that requires enough input (patterns) to yield a saturation point. The point of saturation can be defined as the minimum density required for the subconscious to unlock an insight/"aha" moment. Thus, the density is increased assuming that the density of each element represents the concentration of knowledge/ideas/insights, exc (For instance, Calculus is composed on concentrated elements because so many predecessors have developed/spent time creating the study.) Now, extroverted intuition yields the opposite result. There exists some element in space with a arbitrary density....From that point of reference in space, multiple possibilities/ideas are projected outward, however, density is a function of time. Therefore, if ideas are splitting at a fast rate, then it follows that the individual densities won't grow much. This is the reason introverted intuitive users have such deep/penetrating insights whereas extroverted intuitive users forget their past ideas/projects, exc.