Learned Fe

[energy]

Life told me that if you don't learn Fe, you're f*cked.

I don't agree with this, people use leqanred Fe when they are insecure around crowds and don't want to be a target for attack.

People who can use Fe natuirally are type 3s and females in general.

Learned Fe is quite simple:
never speak your mind
don't use your mouth as a weapon to attack other people
add comments to what everyone has agreed on
don't rock the boat
put excessive simile faces on your posts to tone down the offense

Its better to have courage and stand yp for the truht in long term than to blend in. But this is often more difficult for some people than others.

 

[Totenkindly]

Learned Fe is quite simple:
never speak your mind
don't use your mouth as a weapon to attack other people
add comments to what everyone has agreed on
don't rock the boat
put excessive simile faces on your posts to tone down the offense

I think that's a pretty shallow view of Fe.

 

[Salomé]

From observation of people on this forum, I have seen several members who seem to have almost taught themselves to use Fe to a much greater degree than they probably naturally would use it. I'll admit to having taught myself to be a lot nicer and more diplomatic than I was when younger, because it gets me my way and wins arguments more frequently.

I was just wondering about others' inputs-

why would you develop a trait that you would not naturally use as much?

what are the benefits of this?

does it ever feel like it was a learned, as opposed to natural, trait?

It seems to me that some people are confusing the Fe function with behaviours manifested by mature Fe-types. For types where Fe is the inferior function (e.g. INTP), Fe is usually not under conscious control and if/when it emerges (e.g. in situations of extreme stress) it is usually unhealthy and disadvantageous.

The inferior function isn't something which can be developed easily (Lenore Thomson suggests that one shouldn't even try to develop it directly).

What can be learned are the rules and behaviours that govern socially acceptable interaction - but that isn't the same as developing the Fe function per se. The fact that the OP and some others feel the need to rationalize their 'development of Fe' based on benefits accrued to themselves, shows that they haven't really developed it at all, I would have thought?

In "I'm not crazy, I'm just not you" by Pearlman & Albritton, they suggest the following for the development of Extraverted Feeling:

"Make an effort to write poetry or some other written expression of the overflow of feelings. Even listing words that express aspects of one's feelings will give life and momentarily capture the experience. By asking a close friend or significant other to see the poetry or word list, ask which expressions capture positive qualities of your relationship. This will ensure that both the basic needs for analysis and affirmation are met. Labeling the feelings is a basic start; specific experiences need to be associated with each label."

*cringes*

 

[Totenkindly]

In "I'm not crazy, I'm just not you" by Pearlman & Albritton, they suggest the following for the development of Extraverted Feeling:

"Make an effort to write poetry or some other written expression of the overflow of feelings. Even listing words that express aspects of one's feelings will give life and momentarily capture the experience. By asking a close friend or significant other to see the poetry or word list, ask which expressions capture positive qualities of your relationship. This will ensure that both the basic needs for analysis and affirmation are met. Labeling the feelings is a basic start; specific experiences need to be associated with each label."

*cringes*

*hides in back of closet*

 

[Little Linguist]

I don't agree with this, people use leqanred Fe when they are insecure around crowds and don't want to be a target for attack.

People who can use Fe natuirally are type 3s and females in general.

Learned Fe is quite simple:
never speak your mind
don't use your mouth as a weapon to attack other people
add comments to what everyone has agreed on
don't rock the boat
put excessive simile faces on your posts to tone down the offense

Its better to have courage and stand yp for the truht in long term than to blend in. But this is often more difficult for some people than others.

Well, damn that sounds just like me. :rolli:

Oh, wait, I almost forgot: --->

 

[nightning]

I don't agree with this, people use leqanred Fe when they are insecure around crowds and don't want to be a target for attack.

People who can use Fe natuirally are type 3s and females in general.

Learned Fe is quite simple:
never speak your mind
don't use your mouth as a weapon to attack other people
add comments to what everyone has agreed on
don't rock the boat
put excessive simile faces on your posts to tone down the offense

Its better to have courage and stand yp for the truht in long term than to blend in. But this is often more difficult for some people than others.

Is that right? It's certainly not my definition for learned Fe... Yes, Fe in the traditional sense does censor some thoughts. But I see it more for efficiency. Picking your battle. Arguing about everything means nobody will spend the time to listen to you when you do have something really important to say. Essentially add "unless necessary" on the first 4 points on your list will be about right. As to the fifth. Does that change anything? Not really.

It seems to me that some people are confusing the Fe function with behaviours manifested by mature Fe-types. For types where Fe is the inferior function (e.g. INTP), Fe is usually not under conscious control and if/when it emerges (e.g. in situations of extreme stress) it is usually unhealthy and disadvantageous.

Agreed. Which is more the reason you should learn more about it and practice controlling it consciously so it flares up less often and less dramatically.

The inferior function isn't something which can be developed easily (Lenore Thomson suggests that one shouldn't even try to develop it directly).

Perhaps I ought to be an ENTP... just because it's difficult and people suggest you shouldn't even try is no reason not to. There's a great deal you can benefit from learning.

What can be learned are the rules and behaviours that govern socially acceptable interaction - but that isn't the same as developing the Fe function per se. The fact that the OP and some others feel the need to rationalize their 'development of Fe' based on benefits accrued to themselves, shows that they haven't really developed it at all, I would have thought?

Yes for the first, not sure for your second point. I see the use of every function as a tool. I believe everybody has and uses all 8. It's just a matter relative frequency of use. It's like muscle memory... you're naturally equipped to handle your dominant and auxiliary functions like reflexes. The rest of them aren't automatic. You have to practice often to use them, and only under conscious control. However practice enough, you do develop muscle memory. And that's the end goal. Having a large enough variety of tools so that you can pick the best one under any situation.

In "I'm not crazy, I'm just not you" by Pearlman & Albritton, they suggest the following for the development of Extraverted Feeling:

"Make an effort to write poetry or some other written expression of the overflow of feelings. Even listing words that express aspects of one's feelings will give life and momentarily capture the experience. By asking a close friend or significant other to see the poetry or word list, ask which expressions capture positive qualities of your relationship. This will ensure that both the basic needs for analysis and affirmation are met. Labeling the feelings is a basic start; specific experiences need to be associated with each label."

*cringes*

Are you sure that's Fe and not Fi? I'll cringe along with you if that's "practice". Fe to me is more social values rather than feelings. Practice for me is to stop and consider how my actions and what I say will affect other people before I proceed. Not any of these silly writing feelings down as poetry.

 

[proteanmix]

Now that I've thought about this more I'm wondering why people think Fe is something that's can be simply "learned" and that's really all there is to it. Can you learn Fi? This is incredibly impersonal the more think about it. All people are really learning or doing are the products of Fe and not much else.

 

[Salomé]

Agreed. Which is more the reason you should learn more about it and practice controlling it consciously so it flares up less often and less dramatically.

How do you consciously control something that is unconscious? That's like saying you can script your dreams.

Perhaps I ought to be an ENTP... just because it's difficult and people suggest you shouldn't even try is no reason not to. There's a great deal you can benefit from learning.

Depends if the reasons are persuasive, naturally. Also helps if they align with your own prejudices.
I have no interest in developing Fe. Fe is my nemesis. In the search for balance, what Thomson advises is that one concentrate on developing the auxiliary and tertiary functions, only then should you turn your attention to inferior ones.

Yes for the first, not sure for your second point. I see the use of every function as a tool. I believe everybody has and uses all 8. It's just a matter relative frequency of use. It's like muscle memory... you're naturally equipped to handle your dominant and auxiliary functions like reflexes. The rest of them aren't automatic. You have to practice often to use them, and only under conscious control. However practice enough, you do develop muscle memory. And that's the end goal. Having a large enough variety of tools so that you can pick the best one under any situation.

In that case, you sacrifice differentiation. No-one can develop all functions equally. I'd rather concentrate on what I'm good at than strive for some impossible perfection.

Are you sure that's Fe and not Fi? I'll cringe along with you if that's "practice". Fe to me is more social values rather than feelings. Practice for me is to stop and consider how my actions and what I say will affect other people before I proceed. Not any of these silly writing feelings down as poetry.

I thought so too at first, but I think it's the discussing feelings with an SO/friend that is the Fe bit.

If you stop to consider cause and effect - is that not substituting Te for Fe?
That's was I was trying to get at before.

For Fi it talks about doing arty things, drawing symbols or the "colors of one's moods". i.e. right-hemisphere stuff.

F*ck all that, I say.

 

[nightning]

Now that I've thought about this more I'm wondering why people think Fe is something that's can be simply "learned" and that's really all there is to it. Can you learn Fi? This is incredibly impersonal the more think about it. All people are really learning or doing are the products of Fe and not much else.

How do you define values without a standard we based our actions on? I believe that Fe is really about doing the right thing. It's just an extra set of parameters you need to consider before you make a decision. The act of considering is practicable. If I had it wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Also I'm not saying a person with shadow Fe can ever be as good at its use as a Fe dominant individual. Obviously they can't. I'm saying it's still nonetheless beneficial for us to be more proficient at its uses. Some social skills is better than none at all.

Fi is more difficult to learn. You need to figure out your values and to some point your personal feelings. A lot of sitting down in introspection.

 

[MacGuffin]

The inferior function isn't something which can be developed easily (Lenore Thomson suggests that one shouldn't even try to develop it directly).

I think Lenore Thomson should be punched in the face.

 

[nightning]

How do you consciously control something that is unconscious? That's like saying you can script your dreams.

Ummmm lucid dreaming?

Even though psychotherapy has very little basis in science. The principles behind it, understanding more about what's going on unconsciously is useful. First step is self awareness. Learn to recognize when it's reacting negatively and stop it. The second step is directed use. Recognize situations where its use will be beneficial and try to apply it.

Depends if the reasons are persuasive, naturally. Also helps if they align with your own prejudices.
I have no interest in developing Fe. Fe is my nemesis. In the search for balance, what Thomson advises is that one concentrate on developing the auxiliary and tertiary functions, only then should you turn your attention to inferior ones.

*shrugs* What can I say, I see functions as tools. I have my goals and they have theirs... if the two can be achieved together why the hell not try and convince them it's possible? If it's not, well hey I tried.

Auxiliary and tertiary... I've been there and done that. What I also don't understand is why people think functions ought to be developed individually. It's much easier pairing it with another function you're familiar with. Take my inferior Se. I go Se -> Ni. Shut everything else down and just observe, then I let Ni have fun connecting the details that I just noticed. Practice doesn't have to be serious and boring.

In that case, you sacrifice differentiation. No-one can develop all functions equally. I'd rather concentrate on what I'm good at than strive for some impossible perfection.

Hmmm talk on specialist vs generalist again. I'm in the processing of writing up something about this. Actually it'll make a great discussion topic.

I thought so too at first, but I think it's the discussing feelings with an SO/friend that is the Fe bit.

If you stop to consider cause and effect - is that not substituting Te for Fe?
That's was I was trying to get at before.

For Fi it talks about doing arty things, drawing symbols or the "colors of one's moods". i.e. right-hemisphere stuff.

F*ck all that, I say.

How is opening up to others to talk about feelings Fe instead of Fi? You're talking about yourself. Trying to read other people's feelings is more in line with Fe. If that's what they mean, you don't need poetry.

The Fi suggestion they give is also pretty bad. Is the thing written by an INFP?

 

[proteanmix]

How do you define values without a standard we based our actions on? I believe that Fe is really about doing the right thing. It's just an extra set of parameters you need to consider before you make a decision. The act of considering is practicable. If I had it wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Also I'm not saying a person with shadow Fe can ever be as good at its use as a Fe dominant individual. Obviously they can't. I'm saying it's still nonetheless beneficial for us to be more proficient at its uses. Some social skills is better than none at all.

Fi is more difficult to learn. You need to figure out your values and to some point your personal feelings. A lot of sitting down in introspection.

It's the fact that people are basically alluding to "all you gotta do is this and VIOLA! you know Fe." When I decide I'm not going to slap a bitch because she's pissing me off it's more than 'it's socially unacceptable to do that so therefore I won't do it.'

People are real to me. They have things they care about, and they value, and they desire, and they hate, and these are the things I want to make contact and connect with when it comes to people. It's not saying thank you and please and not behaving like a barbarian. Which is what I feel like Fe is being reduced to, empty and soulless social niceties. That's a pretty obvious statement to make, but explaining what Fe feels like and what it does from my perspective isn't like what people say they're learning to do.

To me if you're really learning Fe, you're not thinking you attract more flies with honey than vinegar or it's the most socially expedient thing to do. It's an active, sincere and tangible caring about other people and not just because they're your family or friends or romantic interest. Some people have to dig to the bottom of their being to care about themselves.

Sometimes I've talked to people and they'll just say I really don't care about anything that's not directly related to them. That's such a foreign concept to me because I have the capacity to care about things that don't relate directly to me. I don't know if that's Fe or not, but I can do it.

 

[Salomé]

How is opening up to others to talk about feelings Fe instead of Fi? You're talking about yourself. Trying to read other people's feelings is more in line with Fe. If that's what they mean, you don't need poetry.

I dunno. "ask which expressions capture positive qualities of your relationship"
Isn't that Fe? The world of F is a foreign country to me.

The Fi suggestion they give is also pretty bad. Is the thing written by an INFP?

Prolly. The dedication reads:

"To our children
Olivia, Luke, Wells, Eliza and Emmy

May your discoveries lead you to joy"​

say no more.

 

[nightning]

People are real to me. They have things they care about, and they value, and they desire, and they hate, and these are the things I want to make contact and connect with when it comes to people. It's not saying thank you and please and not behaving like a barbarian. Which is what I feel like Fe is being reduced to, empty and soulless social niceties. That's a pretty obvious statement to make, but explaining what Fe feels like and what it does from my perspective isn't like what people say they're learning to do.

Point taken. I understand that there's a lot of depth when it comes to Fe. May I say it's probably the result of interactions of Fe with other cognitive functions? Ni or Si for example? For us non-dominant Fe individuals though, the first step of learning about Fe is the social niceties. I suppose the rest of it comes over time.

Sometimes I've talked to people and they'll just say I really don't care about anything that's not directly related to them. That's such a foreign concept to me because I have the capacity to care about things that don't relate directly to me. I don't know if that's Fe or not, but I can do it.

*nods* I would call it Fe. It's values concerning other people. For me, I do care about the well-being of people. Is it only related to people who are close to me? I would like to think it's more than that. But definitely the primary motive isn't the same. I'm more altruistic in terms of help you, help me back. You're right in saying that gap can never be completely closed, but certainly narrowing it is possible.

I dunno. "ask which expressions capture positive qualities of your relationship"
Isn't that Fe? The world of F is a foreign country to me.

I don't know... is this something EXFJs do? It somehow still feels like Fi to me. Some Fe expert opinion is needed here.

 

[cascadeco]

Because I am lazy and perhaps stupid and don't feel like figuring out how to link a really old thread to this one, here is a long-winded thing I wrote a long time ago about how I view myself using Fe.

But as for the 'Learned' Fe, which is the purpose of this thread, I think many people associate Fe with social niceties and the more superficial rules, social graces, 'expectations', pleasantries, small talk, etc. And I HAVE had to learn all of that stuff -- and I rather dislike many of the superficial aspects of Fe.

And I think it's the superficial aspects that can be learned -- and give people the notion that Fe is 'fake' - because Fe CAN be fake - especially if it's someone just trying to go through the motions of being Fe so as to get along, or whatever.

-------------------------------

My take on Fe:

Often it's a lot more what I *don't* do, as opposed to what I do do. And fine-tuning based on the individual. It's highly individualized. For example, not saying something if I know the other person is extremely opposed to my thought/opinion. Or fine-tuning my delivery or what I talk about to the specific person, based on what their interests might be, or what their interpersonal needs are. Do they like things to be more to the point? Ok, I can do that. And that means I'll 'leave out' or 'not say' a lot of other stuff I might say to a person with a very different personality. Or are they more apt to go off on tangents and speak broadly and philosophically and emotionally?? Well, I can *definitely* do that. So I think it's more meeting the other person at their level of being - and in that moment in time.

Or as a child, not rebelling against my parents because it didn't occur to me to do otherwise -- just putting their feelings ahead of my own, and valuing their needs higher than mine. Not wanting them to experience negative emotions as a result of something I did. Not wanting to cause problems. (this is just a generality -- over time there's more of a balance for me - i.e. my needs vs. the other persons -- but yeah, Fe for me tends to be putting the other persons' needs ahead of my own, whether in a simple everyday conversation, or something larger - and accommodating my delivery or expressions accordingly - because it makes me happy when other people are happy, and I want to add fuel to other peoples' joy if they're joyful, or if other people are sad, I want to explore those feelings with them to help them gain peace or clarity....just to understand them in that moment in time).

For me it's really getting to know the other person, learning about their needs/behaviors, and adjusting my style if necessary to accommodate their needs. I don't view it as being 'fake' at all, as I'm still fully myself; this is who I am. And those I have deeper connections with will in turn see more sides of me. If I sense that they're uncomfortable and need reassurance on something that they're saying -- like if I sense they lack confidence or are hesitant to speak their mind, then I will be sure to smile and give them a verbal pat on the back, and be more encouraging in my mannerisms and responses, so that they feel safe to be open with me. But I never push people towards doing anything or saying anything -- if I sense reticence, I don't push for anything. I want people to be fully themselves and I don't want to influence them otherwise. And perhaps the Fe is more of a 'tool' that I use to connect with others because I want to create a 'safe' environment where they can be authentic and REAL. Actually as I'm typing all of this out, I think it boils down to simply validating their feelings and experiences, whatever they are, and trying to understand them.

This might be just me...so I tend to hesitate about posting stuff like this because I don't really want to speak for everyone out there who might experience completely different things when it comes to Fe.

Edit: I also tend to think manifestations of Fe will vary between personality types, especially between your I's and E's. For example, my Fe is going to be rather different from ESFJ's Fe, or ENFJ's Fe, or...etc.. and I'm not certain it is approached in the same matter internally, even though externally it might look the same.

Edit2 : And sure, Fe is also about what's 'appropriate' in a given situation or in the group setting/culture that I'm in - but that's just the icing. All of the above is Fe on the individual level.

 

[Salomé]

^ I do all that. Is that Fe? I'm an Fe'ing King then.

 

[substitute]

Now that I've thought about this more I'm wondering why people think Fe is something that's can be simply "learned" and that's really all there is to it. Can you learn Fi? This is incredibly impersonal the more think about it. All people are really learning or doing are the products of Fe and not much else.

I believe earlier in the thread I said something similar... that the genuine caring and attachment to others' feelings and concerns can't be learned like it was the Japanese alphabet or something... but I mentioned how, for me, learning the 'surface' aspects of it (better manners/tact etc) by deliberate effort opened up opportunities for experiences that led to an increase in the deeper, inner side of things for me.

 

[Ilah]

It's the fact that people are basically alluding to "all you gotta do is this and VIOLA! you know Fe." When I decide I'm not going to slap a bitch because she's pissing me off it's more than 'it's socially unacceptable to do that so therefore I won't do it.'

People are real to me. They have things they care about, and they value, and they desire, and they hate, and these are the things I want to make contact and connect with when it comes to people. It's not saying thank you and please and not behaving like a barbarian. Which is what I feel like Fe is being reduced to, empty and soulless social niceties. That's a pretty obvious statement to make, but explaining what Fe feels like and what it does from my perspective isn't like what people say they're learning to do.

To me if you're really learning Fe, you're not thinking you attract more flies with honey than vinegar or it's the most socially expedient thing to do. It's an active, sincere and tangible caring about other people and not just because they're your family or friends or romantic interest. Some people have to dig to the bottom of their being to care about themselves.

Sometimes I've talked to people and they'll just say I really don't care about anything that's not directly related to them. That's such a foreign concept to me because I have the capacity to care about things that don't relate directly to me. I don't know if that's Fe or not, but I can do it.

When I started reading this thread I my first thought was that learned Fe sometimes feels faked. It may be more accurate to say I have learned to fake Fe.

This fake Fe is learned in a very T way, by learning "rules." With practice the rules become more natural. For example, I have developed a habit of being polite, so most of the time I don't have to stop and think to be polite. Expressions of sympathy are difficult to me, even with someone I genuinely care about. I have learned to fake them - though I often worry that they come off as insincere to other people. I am not that good at showing an emotion I don't feel. I think anything that doesn't require a forced show of emotion, such as being helpful or considerate, I can do okay.

I connect with people, but not usually on an emotional level. I form mental connections with people. I enjoy talking (writing/reading) with them and sharing ideas. Sometimes I might form a spiritual or cosmic connection with other people. I don't really know how to describe this without using a lot of spiritual/New Age words, but maybe you could say it is an N connection. Even though I don't feel strong emotions for these people the connections can still be strong and meaningful to me.

Words get kind of tricky at this point. I think it would be misleading to say I don't care about these people even though I don't feel (much) emotion toward them. I value them as people. I value the relationships.

Ilah

 

[the state i am in]

It's the fact that people are basically alluding to "all you gotta do is this and VIOLA! you know Fe." When I decide I'm not going to slap a bitch because she's pissing me off it's more than 'it's socially unacceptable to do that so therefore I won't do it.'

People are real to me. They have things they care about, and they value, and they desire, and they hate, and these are the things I want to make contact and connect with when it comes to people. It's not saying thank you and please and not behaving like a barbarian. Which is what I feel like Fe is being reduced to, empty and soulless social niceties. That's a pretty obvious statement to make, but explaining what Fe feels like and what it does from my perspective isn't like what people say they're learning to do.

To me if you're really learning Fe, you're not thinking you attract more flies with honey than vinegar or it's the most socially expedient thing to do. It's an active, sincere and tangible caring about other people and not just because they're your family or friends or romantic interest. Some people have to dig to the bottom of their being to care about themselves.

Sometimes I've talked to people and they'll just say I really don't care about anything that's not directly related to them. That's such a foreign concept to me because I have the capacity to care about things that don't relate directly to me. I don't know if that's Fe or not, but I can do it.

people do not seem to realize that Fe is a totally absurd and meaningless conceptual idea if it is just a social nicety function. expediency is so different. nf idealism is NOT that, my Fe gets in the way of what i think would be most efficient. my political stance equates to enlightened despot and benevolent kings. with me in charge.

i walk to the public library thru my neighborhood. it's one of the only real neighborhood-y type spots in the entire (goddamned suburban) city. my head is quiet and it's 3 pm and i'm still thawing out from last night. everything feels so silent. i hung out at the home of my friend and his wife last nite. i sat around a coffee shop and made small talk with a number of familiar faces, patrons, a couple friends who shambled in late, etc. yet i just have this feeling as i creep along the sidewalk. i haven't really connected with anyone in three or four days. i haven't gotten any real and exciting jolt of electricity, interest, feeling. real, tangible, true. i feel like a sleepwalker. i don't feel fully alive. it's a depressing silence that makes the air feel sticky and heavy and breathing takes more energy in the air's thick viscosity. the colors that excite me, sometimes they feel covered in an opaque fog but the fog coats the lenses of my eyes and not the objects themselves. the feeling does not make a sound- it has gone missing. there is no music anywhere and i am weighed down by the heavy absence of everything i care about. what i value has up and gone, vanished, disappeared in the night.

Fe means there are things out there, precious things, that we WANT. that we can hear like clues and ocean breezes and the sound you make when you use your teeth to slurp a safron scented mussel in delicious wine butter from its shell. we can feel it breathing off of the page, waft in the smell, see the bleeding spray of colours, we have to connect with these things. they wake us up. they inspire us and keep us going. they are our motivation. gold and BURIED treasure. our sense of purpose, judgment of good and bad, yes and no, life and death. our ideals are polaroid images of when these crystallized for us perfectly expressed in little snowy scenes.

and one thing people seem to ignore when they prop up Ni and undercut Fe, Fe plays just as large a part to the infj mysticism as Ni does. the sense of Big Picture, complexity, penetrating depth, unity, etc, but the colour, music, and feeling-tone splendor that comes to us in the channel of Fe connection, that makes it beautiful in distinctly human, non-grey scale ways...

 

[BlackCat]

I personally never "learned" Fe. It's my worst function. I can usually figure out what to say and not to say though through empathy.