"True" MBTI Antitheses

[Valuable_Money]

Im the THE ULTIMATE SOCIALITE SUPRA-EXTRAVERT, WOE TO THE INTx PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD, MY SUPER-FRIENDLINESS WILL CAUSE YOU TO GROVEL IN PAIN AND THROW UP HAIR BALLS, HYPERVENTILATE AND HAVE HEART ATTACKS, or whatever excessive physical reactions you recieve when your antithesis, the ESFP approaches.

I dont think the antithesis rule can be strictly applied, it depends totally on interaction style. Two well-developed inviduals can still interact with each other, provided they know how to avoid the pitfalls that would lead to crossing each other.

The best part about that post is I read the first paragraph in benders voice

 

[BlueSprout]

I have some input. The thread just got me thinking about ISTPs (my functional opposite) and INTPs (because Jennifer pointed out the enmity between Fi and Ti).

Though we might be functionally more different (I'm not disputing the model presented), I get along better with ISTPs than most INTPs. An ISTP won't ask my opinion about as many abstract issues or for my judgments about what makes x do y as often. They like to talk about the things related to their fields/hobbies, what they've just done and what they plan to do. It's quite nice and they are enjoyable company. They answer many specific questions I have and help me understand my world a little better, but don't expect to engage in lengthy discussions about existential or abstruse "what if"/"why" topics that overwhelm me.

Maybe this is partially because my Si is more prominent than my Ne. As Jennifer noted, Ne can help bridge gaps in understanding between INFPs and INTPs. INTPs like to hash out ideas and ask for my input so that they can feed Ne. On the other hand, I usually don't like to generate possibilities/explanations without some information gathering or time to think. I have to respond at some point and it's usually not received well, partially because I often have no real, carefully thought out opinion to speak of because of a lack of interest, background or information. I end up just concurring with INTPs and this makes it harder to enjoy their company to be honest. Because I tend to not be as likely to speculate about anything/bounce ideas around or want to engage in discussions about opinions for their own sake, I imagine I'm pretty annoying company for INTPs as well.

Also, ISTPs, because they are STs rather than NTs, also aren't as interested in studying what makes people tick for its own sake. I'm very guarded, so it's easier for me to relax around them because I don't generally feel as scrutinized.

 

[BlackCat]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So you haet me.

For real though. I get along better with INTPs than I do with ENTJs... I will never understand why people will go on about this stuff. Although the stuff you said seems valid.

EDIT- Also most INTPs are LII, and most ISFPs are SEI; making them get along well. But with those weird INTPs who are ILI, that's where it gets rough.

 

[Poki]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So for the Ti person, the Fe neighbor might be annoying but they live in the house next door and like to apply their rules to the gardens outside, and so you can accommodate the way they do things, maybe even apply them to your own garden (even if your house inside is run by Ti), because they are applying different rules but in a different sphere than you are.

However, the Fi person who lives in the same bedroom and house as you is using a completely different set of standards and yet still operating in exactly the same areas as you're trying to. You *will* have disagreement now... and even direct interference if neither of you can back down.

Which made me ponder: ESFJs used to annoy me in terms of working style, but now I find them a lot of fun and I connect very easily with them. When young, they come off as stubborn and inflexible, but as adults they actually seem to sense the prevailing social attitudes and change with it based on the current needs.

ISFPs, meanwhile, were usually okay in terms of working style and we had fun together... but on the few occasions I've had to bump heads with them, it was almost impossible to get any sort of compromise. Basically, the Fi values (fueled by Se) are conflicting direction with my Ti values (fueled by Ne). Because we are both I, we'd simply avoid having conflicts and avoid the controversial topic, so as to have a happy comfortable fun time together. But now that I've had a few instances where the ISFP was mad at me for violating their values, we had a lot of distance -- they weren't interested in or able to promote a rational argument to change my mind, and I could not just accommodate their values that I thought were wrong, and so now we had an issue.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

I like that. I know from my experience when I turn to an Fi user for what they think I dont generally ask why but I will take their advise if its what I am looking for or want but Ti and Ni says otherwise. As you get to know that Fi user you start to trust their judgment with no questions asked and the other way aroudn when I am asked to do something from a Fi user I will point out logical problems that Ti comes up with and then see how they feel about it. I do this when choices need to be weighed with a different scale then I use. Kinda like when I need an opinion instead of a logical analysis.

 

[wildcat]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So for the Ti person, the Fe neighbor might be annoying but they live in the house next door and like to apply their rules to the gardens outside, and so you can accommodate the way they do things, maybe even apply them to your own garden (even if your house inside is run by Ti), because they are applying different rules but in a different sphere than you are.

However, the Fi person who lives in the same bedroom and house as you is using a completely different set of standards and yet still operating in exactly the same areas as you're trying to. You *will* have disagreement now... and even direct interference if neither of you can back down.

Which made me ponder: ESFJs used to annoy me in terms of working style, but now I find them a lot of fun and I connect very easily with them. When young, they come off as stubborn and inflexible, but as adults they actually seem to sense the prevailing social attitudes and change with it based on the current needs.

ISFPs, meanwhile, were usually okay in terms of working style and we had fun together... but on the few occasions I've had to bump heads with them, it was almost impossible to get any sort of compromise. Basically, the Fi values (fueled by Se) are conflicting direction with my Ti values (fueled by Ne). Because we are both I, we'd simply avoid having conflicts and avoid the controversial topic, so as to have a happy comfortable fun time together. But now that I've had a few instances where the ISFP was mad at me for violating their values, we had a lot of distance -- they weren't interested in or able to promote a rational argument to change my mind, and I could not just accommodate their values that I thought were wrong, and so now we had an issue.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Hello.
John and Linda can do many things.
They do not know how to count.

Wake up.

 

[Eric B]

There's nothing wrong with John and Linda's theory; it seem to be pretty much in sync with people's experience here.
Basically, the type with all letters opposite will be the most opposite on the surface, yet ultimately, they have the same primary cognitive makeup, though in reverse. It's the types that share the same outer two letters (sociability temperament), or the same middle two letters (Myers temperament, and also the Keirsey temperament for N's), who are similar on the surface, but have totally opposite cognitive makeups.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hello.
John and Linda can do many things.
They do not know how to count.

Wake up.

Hey, lookie there -- I've been asleep 14 months!

 

[Poki]

Hey, lookie there -- I've been asleep 14 months!

So the real question is do you still agree with yourself

 

[Totenkindly]

So the real question is do you still agree with yourself

I think wc and others missed the point that Eric B was so kind to clarify a bit ago:

There's nothing wrong with John and Linda's theory; it seem to be pretty much in sync with people's experience here.

Basically, the type with all letters opposite will be the most opposite on the surface, yet ultimately, they have the same primary cognitive makeup, though in reverse.

It's the types that share the same outer two letters (sociability temperament), or the same middle two letters (Myers temperament, and also the Keirsey temperament for N's), who are similar on the surface, but have totally opposite cognitive makeups.

Thanks, Eric.

So with the latter, you seem to interact just fine with them until the opposite cognitive makeups come into opposition.

With the former, you see the differences immediately but maybe eventually have a better chance at communication/connection because you still both share similar tandem pairs.

 

[Poki]

I think wc and others missed the point that Eric B was so kind to clarify a bit ago:



Thanks, Eric.

So with the latter, you seem to interact just fine with them until the opposite cognitive makeups come into opposition.

With the former, you see the differences immediately but maybe eventually have a better chance at communication/connection because you still both share similar tandem pairs.

What I see is that we need to let go of the ways in which we use our functions in an incorrect manner. What Fi is good at is different then Ti, until you learn those then you will have lots of disagreements. Its a trial and error really in regard to the interaction styles to determine when each function is used properly or not. We tend to use functions in a way that works, but is not best.

I am learning that Ti and Ni is best used when turned internally because I contain all my own data and am not trying to piece together things with "what I think I see". To do this it takes someone that I can be open with and also to be honest with myself when what I am trying to say does not match with who I am. When it is turned internal I will pick these things up on my own as I contain everything I need inside. Ti and Ni are internal and is best used with internal data. Se and Fe is external and used correctly when it is validated from external sources.

To sum this up, this is why Ti and Fi end up having problems. They end up turned externally and is filled with so much "unproven data".

 

[wildcat]

There's nothing wrong with John and Linda's theory; it seem to be pretty much in sync with people's experience here.
Basically, the type with all letters opposite will be the most opposite on the surface, yet ultimately, they have the same primary cognitive makeup, though in reverse. It's the types that share the same outer two letters (sociability temperament), or the same middle two letters (Myers temperament, and also the Keirsey temperament for N's), who are similar on the surface, but have totally opposite cognitive makeups.

The cognitive makeup is of one order. A vision of it is not.

 

[wildcat]

I think wc and others missed the point that Eric B was so kind to clarify a bit ago:



Thanks, Eric.

So with the latter, you seem to interact just fine with them until the opposite cognitive makeups come into opposition.

With the former, you see the differences immediately but maybe eventually have a better chance at communication/connection because you still both share similar tandem pairs.

An order does not turn.
The spectator "turns" the order.
Ultimately it is not turned.

 

[1104]

i can't imagine an xSFP caring enough about anything that i'd be working on to butt heads. even if it's a group effort, they're just there to keep up.
but dominant Te is poo to work with.

 

[Settoken]

I'm an INTP and I both know the ESFJ and the ISFP types.

First I have to say that I got a strong "introverted Feeling" (Fi) and a ridiculous extraverted one (Fe). I also have a strong Introverted Thinking (Ti). I have both introverted and extraverted Intuiting strong and both sensing quite weak. So I'm not really sur about my MBTI type; INTP might be a result of my enneagramme type: 5.
I don't know.

So back to the thread. My mother is a typical ESFJ. I got a real good friend which I share professional/artistic goals with.
From my experience of these types, I feel it far more uncomfortable to deal with an ESFJ than an ISFP.
The ISFP values lonelyness and respects rational thinking for its efficience, and is also a rather anticonformist type. The ESFJ's behavior is essentialy opposed to that.
Between an ISFP and an INTP there's a kind of convergence with opposed dynamics imao.
It's absolutely not the case between an INTP and an ESFJ. I think that the only way for an INTP to get the respect from an ESFJ is by a kind of social recognition. And for the ESFJ to get the respect from an INTP, may be by...eh...may be a sort of understanding of why traditionalism is usefull for society ? hum...not very convincing I know.

As an INTP I appreciate the way of living of my ISFP friend. He stimulates my weak S side and I think that I give him that N thing he doesn't have. If there's a clash, it's always in stressfull exhausting situations when I express my Ti in a ruthless way, hurting his feelings. There's then a fundamental misunderstanding leading each one of us to just separate ourselves for a moment because of us beeing both introverted.

We also both have the same INFP friend. That probably helps resolving conflicts.

 

[Halfjillhalfjack]

I haven't read all of this thread, but.... are there any of you INTPs who start behaving like ISFPs under (emotional) stress, especially in relationships?

 

[AnonymousTNPI]

I don't agree. ISFPs and INTPs are still both dominant introverted judgers- a lot of the same approach. I think the true opposite is ISFJ.

Sure if your decisions conflict, you're bound to not get along with most people (Fi or Ti or not).

*You mean dominant Perceivers, if you don't then your incorrect. Intps and Isfps rely on their creativity and ability to improvise in situations which make them distinct in society too. INTJs and ISFJs are completely judgemental and organized but INTJS are a little more, especially judgemental, but what you wrote is compltely incorrect and true in the exact direct opposite

 

[Totenkindly]

*You mean dominant Perceivers, if you don't then your incorrect.

Ehhh..... In the MBTI, ISFPs (Fi primary) and INTPs (Ti primary) are Introverted Judgers -- their dominants are judging functions.

 

[PurpleDawn]

I know this is an old thread, but I can definitely see it. I get along horribly with the majority of ESTPs, we just don't click at all. ISTJs on the other hand I get along fine with most of the time. 2 of my good friends are ISTJs.