"True" MBTI Antitheses

[mippus]

Hm, Jennifer, I don't know if I am very pleased with this theory. Unfortunately, it makes sense. My wife is ISFP
I do recognise the argument description you gave. In general we do get along really well, though. Opposites needn't be in conflict...

 

[mlittrell]

all this does is describe basic type dynamics (such as the ones named on www.personalitypage.com)... nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

Im the THE ULTIMATE SOCIALITE SUPRA-EXTRAVERT, WOE TO THE INTx PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD, MY SUPER-FRIENDLINESS WILL CAUSE YOU TO GROVEL IN PAIN AND THROW UP HAIR BALLS, HYPERVENTILATE AND HAVE HEART ATTACKS, or whatever excessive physical reactions you recieve when your antithesis, the ESFP approaches.

I dont think the antithesis rule can be strictly applied, it depends totally on interaction style. Two well-developed inviduals can still interact with each other, provided they know how to avoid the pitfalls that would lead to crossing each other.

 

["?"]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

Plausible, but does it not depend on what is meant by"antithesis" which is exact opposite from my understanding. I actually think that since the dominant functions for both types are introverted this gives enough similarity not to make the two types polar opposites. Ergo it would seem that ESFJ remains the ultimate "antithesis" because it's not only the opposite in judging function which must be at the opposite ends of the spectrum, but it's attitude is complete opposite. I do believe that contrary to the opposite attracts theory, that dominant Ti types will be more attracted to the dominate Fi types. However this may just be my case.

 

[Athenian200]

Now this I think I understand. The true opposite, in your view, is the opposite function in the same sphere rather than the opposite function in the opposite sphere?

So that would go...

INTP - ISFP

INFP - ISTP

INFJ - ISTJ

INTJ - ISFJ

So in other words... XXXX - XYYX? Invert the central letters (NF, ST, NT, SF) to determine the opposite type?

EDIT: Old thread... probably shouldn't have bothered. Sorry.

 

[Totenkindly]

...I do believe that contrary to the opposite attracts theory, that dominant Ti types will be more attracted to the dominate Fi types. However this may just be my case.

Really? I can tell you that it doesn't work for me, for sure...

Fi and whatever accompanies it always creates some sort of distance for me, even if the connection can be good on other levels. It's like the "friendship" works (working styles can be similar), but there's too much difference in the processing for it to become an intimate machine that locks together... at least for my tastes.

Now this I think I understand. The true opposite, in your view, is the opposite function in the same sphere rather than the opposite function in the opposite sphere?

Yes, I think that was the idea I was tossing out.
I was not sure on it either way or anything, but I thought it worth discussing and exploring.

 

[Nihilen]

Nah, ESFJs can drive me mad. Not ISFPs.

 

[Totenkindly]

Nah, ESFJs can drive me mad. Not ISFPs.

Yes, I see that as a working-style difference... and especially if the types are pretty straight and unnuanced.

When a teen, my dealings with ESFJS were horrendous, I couldn't stand them and spent my time with the ISFPs; nowadays I can deal with mature ones very very well.

My intuition is that development of tertiary and inferior functions really enables things to mesh; but until that point, it's just hell.

 

[Eric B]

Just added this to my long page on MBTI:
Here's how changing the letters affects the functions:

E/I: blocks maintain same order, functions in pairs switched (2,1; 4,3; etc) (Keirsey: "least important dichotomy")

S/N: same attitudes in place; perceiving functions swapped (and also reversed in tandem order) and take opposite attitude (types will "see things differently", but judge the same way).
I Types: primary/shadow "arms" (i.e. perceiving function) are swapped and reversed - 1,7,6,4,5,3,2,8.
E types: primary/shadow "spines" are swapped and reversed 8,2,3,5,4,6,7,1

T/F: same attitudes in place; judging functions swapped (and also reversed in tandem order) and take opposite attitude (types will see things the same way, but "judge things differently".
I types: primary/shadow "spines" (i.e. judging function) are swapped and reversed - 8,2,3,5,4,6,7,1.
E types: primary/shadow "arms" are swapped and reversed - 1,7,6,4,5,3,2,8

J/P: same attitudes in place, but the blocks swapped between primary and shadow with pairs reversed; all functions taking opposite attitudes (total shadow opposites; most drastic dichotomy switch: 6,5,8,7,2,1,4,3)

E/I + J/P (two middle letters the same) same processes in place with attitudes reversed; even swap of four function primary/shadow ranges (diametric attitude opposite: 5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4)

S/N + T/F (two middle letters changed): All eight functions reversed in order (attitudes fall into the same places). Most diametrically opposite type, cognitively: (8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1)

E/I + S/N (first two letters) judgment compatible only; spine becomes arm and is replaced with shadow arm as new "spine" with pairs reversed: (7,1,4,6,3,5,8,2)

E/I + T/F perception compatible only; arm becomes spine; and is replaced with shadow spine as new "arm" with pairs reversed: (2,8,5,3,6,4,1,7)

S/N + J/P reverse perception compatible (same primary perception functions; arm reversed and becomes spine, and is replaced with shadow spine as new "arm": 3,5,8,2,7,1,4,6)

T/F + J/P (last two letters) reverse judgment compatible (spine reversed and becomes arm and is replaced with shadow arm as new "spine": 6,4,1,7,2,8,5,3)

S/N + T/F + J/P (opposite intelligence type, same attitude): Even block swap within primary/shadow range. Next most similar type after E/I swap: (3,4 - 1,2, etc.)

All four dichotomies: Swap of four functions within primary/shadow range: 4,3,2,1,8,7,6,5. Technically "ego-compatible", but will clash as diametrically opposite ego-syntonic types. Yet, as the 3rd and 4th functions develop, they should "grow towards each other".

So Jennifer, I can understand you not getting along with an ESFJ (and as you see, it has gotten easier with mature ones), but how would you be drawn to ISFPs instead? (though in outward behavior they will be similar: introverted, informing and pragmatic, so perhaps at that time the cognitive side of it didn't matter then?)

 

[Ulaes]

I was chatting over on another MBTI forum and someone mentioned that ISFP, not ESFJ, was the true antithesis to INTP.

I realized at least in terms of pure function use, this is correct.

ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
ISFP = Fi + Se + Ni + Te

And it sort of fits with what I've said in the past (and in terms of total shadow function theory), where Fi (and NOT Fe) to me is the worst enemy of Ti because it operates in the exact same sphere as Ti is trying to, but with a completely different set of priorities.

So for the Ti person, the Fe neighbor might be annoying but they live in the house next door and like to apply their rules to the gardens outside, and so you can accommodate the way they do things, maybe even apply them to your own garden (even if your house inside is run by Ti), because they are applying different rules but in a different sphere than you are.

However, the Fi person who lives in the same bedroom and house as you is using a completely different set of standards and yet still operating in exactly the same areas as you're trying to. You *will* have disagreement now... and even direct interference if neither of you can back down.

Which made me ponder: ESFJs used to annoy me in terms of working style, but now I find them a lot of fun and I connect very easily with them. When young, they come off as stubborn and inflexible, but as adults they actually seem to sense the prevailing social attitudes and change with it based on the current needs.

ISFPs, meanwhile, were usually okay in terms of working style and we had fun together... but on the few occasions I've had to bump heads with them, it was almost impossible to get any sort of compromise. Basically, the Fi values (fueled by Se) are conflicting direction with my Ti values (fueled by Ne). Because we are both I, we'd simply avoid having conflicts and avoid the controversial topic, so as to have a happy comfortable fun time together. But now that I've had a few instances where the ISFP was mad at me for violating their values, we had a lot of distance -- they weren't interested in or able to promote a rational argument to change my mind, and I could not just accommodate their values that I thought were wrong, and so now we had an issue.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

is this thread too old for me to reply to? oh well. strangley enough i came by it via google while i searched intp and isfp.
anthical is the wrong word. as i understand it the shadow functions exist in an individual by not being there. as we mature we are rounded off, and what extinguishes Ti? Fe.
Fe is the intps last function because the dominant function is too hard to take down. the secondary function is too easily challenged so hence its shadow is only the third function.
this is why esfj anf intp are anthical to one another - Ti and Fe cannot function at the same time, one will interrupt the other. they naturally repulse each other.
am i being vague? probably so oops, i mean, so what if i am.

ive always [whimiscally] thought that Ti was complemented by Fi. i think isfps are the other half of our gemini-twin introvert thingy (yes, very technical) so we fill in each others gaps and a create a whole. getting even more technical now- i see esfj as a threat to my comfort (and if i were subjected to obey their lifestyle i would be in hell) and isfp just as someone who's doing it wrong. i see the intp/esfp relationship rather than the intp/isfp relationship as one destined for less misunderstanding as their functions only provide things the other dose not have and dont challenge one another/cause stress. esfp and esfj are what is different and what is wrong. my relationships with esfps were always slow to start, it was like two giant anciet cogs slowly gaining momentum. i think it takes so long because they share no like-functions to be stimulated by one another (you know how you can talk for hours with your I/E counterpart or same type because the dominant functions of both are able to bloom as much as they can thus energizing you). esfps and i will always be suggesting things to each other. i get the feeling like we're the same person, whereas with esfj's i feel our co-existence is like a perpetual tug-o-war with each one competing for their freedom.
wtf, i was writing about isfps....
i forget now
i guess ill just have to make something up...
T chooses to ignore the F side of things.
Ti chooses to ignroe the Fi side of things.
Se to Ti is brand new and inherently acceptable information as it cannot be filtered by Ti. they dont touch each other, they are both in completle stealth.
i can see what youre saying is the isfp/intp issue. they are on the opposite ends of the introvert line up, thats definate. i think they mirror each other in the isfp being the most extraverted and the intp being the least. in real life situations they're probably not likely to rub one another the wrong way, actually they're probably going to get along due to their natures. but theoretically they dont have any respect or desire for one anothers values and wants. they use information i dont to make their decisions, thats why i think theyre doing it wrong. intps and isfp cant understand/appreciate the 'why' of one another and this is why they're less than ideal. as for a word to label to realtionship, like esfj/intp has antagonisitc and intp/esfp has different, well... i cant think of an isfp/intp one right now.

on a personal note i really like isfps but from afar i never saw anything to like about them. i have a good isfp friend and we always want to spend more time together then we get to - much unlike an esfj friend and i. i hold no contempt whatsoever for any of the isfps im aquiainted with. i feel the relationship with my closest isfp is akin to what i experience with esfps, and in ways its better because it feels safer and we can hang out all day withour boring each other.

 

[Ulaes]

^ not final

 

[INTPatricia]

I can handle the "middle code opposites" in the opposite sex but not in same sex relationships. For example, as an intp female, I am compatible with an ISFP male but cannot abide an ISFP female (and it is mutual). I believe this is because the isfp female thinks I "should" behave in certain ways and he does not.

I am not a fan of ESFJ females.

 

[INTPatricia]

I am an intp female and I like ISFP males but not the ISFP females and the feelings are mutual all the way around.

 

[Totenkindly]

as i understand it the shadow functions exist in an individual by not being there. as we mature we are rounded off, and what extinguishes Ti? Fe. Fe is the intps last function because the dominant function is too hard to take down. the secondary function is too easily challenged so hence its shadow is only the third function. this is why esfj anf intp are anthical to one another - Ti and Fe cannot function at the same time, one will interrupt the other. they naturally repulse each other.am i being vague? probably so oops, i mean, so what if i am.

See, I disagree with this.
I don't think "extinguish" is the right word.

Ti is concerned with the nature of things -- their universal identity (rather than a value imposed by the perceiver, as Fi does).
Fe meanwhile is concerned about the role each pieces plays in the interpersonal web as per its social value (which is cultural-dependent, rather than Te which focuses on each piece's pragmatic/practical value).

These are two different fields of focus.
Hence neither needs to "extinguish" the other.

Functions are tricky anyway -- is an INTP's understanding and expression of Fe going to resemble an ESFJ's version of Fe? Or are they actually different things altogether?

I'm not even sure that types "develop functions" as much as learn how to emulate them via their primary and secondary, to be honest.

ive always [whimiscally] thought that Ti was complemented by Fi. i think isfps are the other half of our gemini-twin introvert thingy (yes, very technical) so we fill in each others gaps and a create a whole. getting even more technical now- i see esfj as a threat to my comfort (and if i were subjected to obey their lifestyle i would be in hell) and isfp just as someone who's doing it wrong. i see the intp/esfp relationship rather than the intp/isfp relationship as one destined for less misunderstanding as their functions only provide things the other dose not have and dont challenge one another/cause stress.

What I find is that ISFP and INTP naturally "play well" together in terms of working styles... but heaven stand back if the Fi values do not mesh with the Ti values -- there's almost no way to reconcile that. The truce is simply because both types are internal judgers and extroverted perceivers, and both would rather downplay conflict and allow each other to go their merry way than fight... but if the situation is such that neither can withdraw, it's going to get very very ugly. When my Ti has conflicted with someone's Fi, I have a shot to reconcile with INFPs because of their Ne matching mine.... but ISFP? It's been frustrating how difficult it has been. There are some ISFPs on this forum who I really like, but who I have learned not to bother engaging if we do run across a different in valuesets... because I already know there's never going to be an agreement. They feel they can't budge, I don't feel I can budge, and at best we can agree to disagree -- again, a "working style" solution where we avoid pointless conflict.

Meanwhile, ESFJ and INTP friction is primarily a working style problem. We both approach situations differently. But I've found that if I can engage ESFJs, they actually can see value in my approach and vice versa, and it's more a matter of them being an ambassador of their specialty and teaching me the "social ropes" and I teach them how to look under the surface and see the underlying structure. there's a lot of meshing that can be done, if you get past the surface issues. I feel that I can actually engage ESFJs and get somewhere, despite the initial fireworks.

 

[Eric B]

What I find is that ISFP and INTP naturally "play well" together in terms of working styles... but heaven stand back if the Fi values do not mesh with the Ti values -- there's almost no way to reconcile that. The truce is simply because both types are internal judgers and extroverted perceivers, and both would rather downplay conflict and allow each other to go their merry way than fight... but if the situation is such that neither can withdraw, it's going to get very very ugly. When my Ti has conflicted with someone's Fi, I have a shot to reconcile with INFPs because of their Ne matching mine.... but ISFP? It's been frustrating how difficult it has been. There are some ISFPs on this forum who I really like, but who I have learned not to bother engaging if we do run across a different in valuesets... because I already know there's never going to be an agreement. They feel they can't budge, I don't feel I can budge, and at best we can agree to disagree -- again, a "working style" solution where we avoid pointless conflict.

My experience exactly, recently. And ironically, the people involved thought I was an Fi preferrer myself, and so compatible with both the ISFP and an INFP. (who as you said I could relate to on the Ne level).
The biggest common similarity of those types is the Behind the Scenes Interaction Style, and/or IP "sociability temperament". Since, it's about "interaction" and "sociability", they will be very similar on the surface.

Meanwhile, ESFJ and INTP friction is primarily a working style problem. We both approach situations differently. But I've found that if I can engage ESFJs, they actually can see value in my approach and vice versa, and it's more a matter of them being an ambassador of their specialty and teaching me the "social ropes" and I teach them how to look under the surface and see the underlying structure. there's a lot of meshing that can be done, if you get past the surface issues. I feel that I can actually engage ESFJs and get somewhere, despite the initial fireworks.

My experience with my wife (who's always too busy to participate in the forum these days!)

 

[mortabunt]

Jennifer, typelogic.com seems to be in agreement. The INTP's relationship to the ISFP is referred to as the "enigma".

They're also the same people that match compatability by flipping the E/I letter. If you put an INTJ and an ENTJ in the same room and they have comflicting conclusions, at least one of them will end up dead.

I personally see the ESFJ as a complete opposite to me.

 

[Totenkindly]

If you put an INTJ and an ENTJ in the same room and they have comflicting conclusions, at least one of them will end up dead.

My, that's a little dark, isn't it?

... I think INTJ would be afraid to get blood on their hands, they'd find a sneakier way to do it later, without any risk.

I personally see the ESFJ as a complete opposite to me.

Clarify why (to more granularity, as others have above) please.

I don't think it's been argued that ESFJ doesn't behave opposite to INTP, the argument is more nuanced than that.

The biggest common similarity of those types is the Behind the Scenes Interaction Style, and/or IP "sociability temperament". Since, it's about "interaction" and "sociability", they will be very similar on the surface.

Ah, there we go -- Interaction Styles.
Yeah.

INTP, INFP, ISFJ, and ISFP.

That's hilarious... I do have a number of friends in each of those sectors, I get along with them very very well. And it's all the working style... basically the interactions are low-key, everyone respects everyone else, is courteous/considerate, everyone's careful to not step on toes, etc. as far as perceptions go, INFP is the close (with the Ne in charge)... and when I clash with them it is always over values -- "someone should have done <this>" or "<this> was a really awful thing to do" they believe, and I usually am saying, "But it was inevitable in that situation" or "From your standpoint it seems that way, but that's not always true... that person wasn't necessarily wrong/bad."

 

[Llewellyn]

Interesting theorizing. I myself like the constellation of ISFP-INTP. "Female land" (a strong attachment to the actual world) vs "male land" (a strong detachment from the actual world). There are certain parallells, perhaps parallells of opposites. My only long-time friend is a (female) ISFP.

Sorry I'm not too wordy, I did go over the thread effortfully, but just catched some things here and there.

The feeling that humanity didn't turn out the way it was supposed to?

Have you ever looked at enneagram type 1?

 

[Asterion]

In Kiersey's Please understand me II, it states that NTs and SJs are oposites, while NTs and the others share some similarities. They might act similarly because of these inferiors, but that doesn't stop them from being opposites when acting normally.

 

[Eric B]

Berens links those with the
"Focus on structure" dimension. (And the other two are "focus on motive"). I see those as a big similarity, as structure/motive is another kind of task vs people focus or "agreeableness" (like directing/informing in the Interaction Styles).