Mbti and the Facts

[Mole]

Here is the definitive study of mbti. It validates every critique I have made over 19,000 posts: https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-385-54190-9 .

Listen to the author from Oxford University by clicking on YouTube .

 

[reckful]

Here is the definitive study of mbti. It validates every critique I have made over 19,000 posts: Nonfiction Book Review: The Personality Brokers: The Strange History of Myers-Briggs and the Birth of Personality Testing by Merve Emre. Doubleday, $27.95 (336p) ISBN 978-0-385-54190-9 .

Listen to the author from Oxford University by clicking on YouTube .

For the possible convenience of your readers, I've put the YouTube transcript of Ms. Emre's commentary (from the video) in the spoiler.

Yes indeed, Mole, that uninformed book of hers certainly deserves to be called "the definitive study of mbti." I'm glad to hear it's "validated" all your "critiques."

Meanwhile, anyone interested in reading about why the validity and reliability of the MBTI are properly viewed as "on a par" with the leading Big Five tests — and about several other issues often raised by people claiming to "debunk" the MBTI — can find a much better-informed MBTI "critique" (if I do say so myself) in this TC Wiki article.

good morning thank you for having me
so for anybody who would assume that the Myers a myers-briggs were two male scientists
that is just not the case
it's a mother-daughter combo who were not they they didn't have training in psychology
no that's exactly right
they were two extraordinary women who believed that all of the work they did as wives and
his mother's actually prepared them to talk about personality and to assess personality more
rigorously than being in a laboratory
but having that back and having that will and that desire is one thing but for to create
an indicator or a test that goes on to be used by fortune 500 companies all over the world
I mean that's a really interesting journey no it is and I think one of the most interesting things
for me and what sort of sits at the heart of the book is that the indicator by many scientific
and statistical measures is not valid and is not reliable and yet people continue to believe in it
and to tell others what their type is with a really unshakable faith
and so the question for me in writing this book was why do we persist in that belief
what is it that the language of type offers us
so the the the indicator has gone through many many iterations but the the first time
it was sort of offered up was July 1st 1943 to a man named Edward and hey how did that meeting go
so Edward and hey was one of the first personnel consultants in the United States
and after World War two there was this massive boom in the labor force
and employers were really eager to figure out how it was that you could find out
which employee which potential employee was best suited to do a job that you were offering
and so Isabel Briggs Myers the daughter of the myers-briggs pair had designed this question
and she offered it to him and she said look I have a questionnaire for you if you give this questionnaire
to possible employees you can figure out who it is that's best able to do the job
who is most type suitable to the job that you are advertising
and and and yet so we sort of recognize that it's not it's not the the scientific Holy Grail
that we were that people hope it is but it's still used today oh why is that
there's a disconnect there but for some reason we still we still look to it
well I think there are two reasons
I think the first is because um you know the indicator offers people a language of the self
a really easy and compelling way to talk about who you are and why it is
that you desire the things that you desire and you do the things that you do
and I think that's an incredibly seductive fantasy
to have a really easy way to excavate your own desires so that's one reason it's used
but I'd say the second reason is that there's still this fantasy that we can rationally
organize labor that we can figure out who it is that's supposed to be doing the jobs
that we want them to do and that if everyone is sort of happy and working productively
we'll have this sort of ideal ideal workplace ideal setup

 

[Pionart]

Whilst watching the youtube video, I was amused by the juxtaposition between what Emre was saying, and my observations of how her body language and vocal cues were providing a concrete manifestation of her type.

No amount of logical argumentation or reference to the facts are going to dissuade me when I can see the phenomenon manifesting in real time (although there is plenty of room for expansion and refinement of my views).

 

[Coriolis]

There are many more thorough and well-substantiated critiques of MBTI, and especially of those who misuse it. It was originally intended for a very specific and practical use: helping people find the work most suitable for them during WWII, in order to enhance productivity by maximizing job satisfaction.

 

[Forever]

Mole I’m reading a biography right now about Carl Jung where the author tries to be objective about him to see whether if he really was a pro nazi sympathizer and how the affairs went.

I’ll catch up with you when I finish the book

 

[Mole]

Whilst watching the youtube video, I was amused by the juxtaposition between what Emre was saying, and my observations of how her body language and vocal cues were providing a concrete manifestation of her type. No amount of logical argumentation or reference to the facts are going to dissuade me when I can see the phenomenon manifesting in real time (although there is plenty of room for expansion and refinement of my views).

We can see the Sun going around the Earth, and the facts contradict our perception. Same with mbti.

 

[Mole]

Mole I'm reading a biography right now about Carl Jung where the author tries to be objective about him to see whether if he really was a pro nazi sympathizer and how the affairs went. I'll catch up with you when I finish the book

Why was Carl Jung's personal diary hidden in a locked safe for 72 years. I don't like being deceived, do you?

 

[Mole]

Yes it is a shock to discover the facts about mbti , and worse to discover we have been deceived. We wonder, is it our fault?

 

[Lark]

Why was Carl Jung's personal diary hidden in a locked safe for 72 years. I don't like being deceived, do you?

You think Jung decided to personally deceive you? Did you know him?

 

[Lark]

Yes it is a shock to discover the facts about mbti , and worse to discover we have been deceived. We wonder, is it our fault?

I just wonder whst brought you to the forum and what makes you stay given your strength of opinions.

 

[Yuurei]

I just wonder whst brought you to the forum and what makes you stay given your strength of opinions.

Mole is not hard to figure out; he has one motive for everything he does; to be an outcast. It’s how he makes himself feel superior to everyone.
He would be truly miserable in a group where he got along with everyone because then he might have to accept that he isn’t really so unique ( and therefore smarter and morally superior) to everyone.

Hell, that’s the entire point of this thread. It isn’t to inform,no, it’s to say” Lookit me! I was right!”

The irony is that this way of thinkong is far from unique or complex. No different than your basic community college student, or 50 yr old stoner who never got the credit they felt the6 deserved for being such a “ deep thinker.” when they were a community college student.

 

[Mole]

We identify with our institutions, and discovering the facts about our institution is like discovering the facts about ourselves. Our first impulse is denial.

 

[Pionart]

We can see the Sun going around the Earth, and the facts contradict our perception. Same with mbti.

You'd have to have presented a much firmer grasp of psychological type for me to give your view on this any credit.

I've studied the system for 8 years, to the point that I've been able to see its manifestation directly, and make strong speculations beyond what the current knowledge is.

If you don't believe in the idea of type (Dario Nardi speaks of "strange attractors") then just wait until it becomes scientifically credited.

Then you'll need a much stronger argument in order to discredit it.

There are strong arguments available, not so much regarding the non-existence of type, but regarding its limitations.

I've provided a starting point: all 16 types exist within us, each in a multitude of possible formations, and we can activate different modes through the will.

Yet I have not in that invalidated that we have a type - only modified what having a type means.

There is much that type does not cover - before, around, and after it. These can be incorporated into the model.

If psychological type is at the level of Newton's laws, then it will come to the point of General Relativity, not to mention Quantum Mechanics.

How exciting it is to be a part of its development!

Yet there is more to life, and I have been submerged in untangling this web for long enough.

It is time for me to discover what else life has to offer.

Adieu.

 

[Lark]

We identify with our institutions, and discovering the facts about our institution is like discovering the facts about ourselves. Our first impulse is denial.

Were did you read that?

 

[BlueScreen]

You'd have to have presented a much firmer grasp of psychological type for me to give your view on this any credit. I've studied the system for 8 years, to the point that I've been able to see its manifestation directly, and make strong speculations beyond what the current knowledge is. If you don't believe in the idea of type (Dario Nardi speaks of "strange attractors") then just wait until it becomes scientifically credited. Then you'll need a much stronger argument in order to discredit it. There are strong arguments available, not so much regarding the non-existence of type, but regarding its limitations. I've provided a starting point: all 16 types exist within us, each in a multitude of possible formations, and we can activate different modes through the will. Yet I have not in that invalidated that we have a type - only modified what having a type means. There is much that type does not cover - before, around, and after it. These can be incorporated into the model. If psychological type is at the level of Newton's laws, then it will come to the point of General Relativity, not to mention Quantum Mechanics. How exciting it is to be a part of its development! Yet there is more to life, and I have been submerged in untangling this web for long enough. It is time for me to discover what else life has to offer. Adieu.

I still disagree with the approach of trying to verify or investigate typology metrics used by Dario Nardi and some others. With the information that they are gathering, they probably should be looking to create a new set of type classifications.

Obviously, there is variation in preferred brain functions or thought processes throughout the population and you can draw the boundaries between groups wherever you like to create a type system. But if they want a personality type system that correlates to brain activity, I figure they'd be best to infer it from their brain activity results.

Just because it is social science doesn't mean the scientific approach should be neglected. A simple starting point is the hypothesis that all the combinations of preferred regions of brain activity are possible. If the results don't support this then the first question is what conditions are limiting the combinations to certain subsets of the possible combinations. Then looking further into these conditions and their influence. Jung or MBTI might be a good rough model or first guess, who knows. A lot of it is self fulfilling though, including to a point the research that naively uses types as an input by averaging over types. These type categories may be somewhat arbitrary in the context of brain activity, and comparing the type averaged outputs is likely to ignore factors that might suggest the categorisation is a poor fit. For example, it might overlook the significance of variations within the averaged data for each type.

 

[Mole]

Were did you read that?

I think we deny the facts, and assassinate character, at our peril.

 

[Mole]

Good faith is critiquing a book after we have read it; and bad faith is critiquing a book before we have read it.

And bad faith characterises a cult.

 

[Mole]

In 1943 mbti was introduced to induct women into the war machine, and mbti was sold to the military. And you thought mbti was all about you.

 

[Norrsken]

I hope you find the strength to leave this community and live a fruitful life.

 

[Mole]

I hope you find the strength to leave this community and live a fruitful life.

Oh yes, I believed mbti was all about me, because I believed everything was all about me, until I read "The.Personality Brokers" and discovered I was a member of a cult and a business.