What do other types do better than the ENTJ

[Luminous]

Unless it is said only to gain favour with the person... Then it is used for manipulation.

I would argue that it's no longer sincere if used expressly for the purposes of manipulation. Of course, it's possible we are defining appreciation differently. To me, there's an inherent respect in appreciation that is incompatible with manipulation.

 

[Lib]

I would argue that it's no longer sincere if used expressly for the purposes of manipulation. Of course, it's possible we are defining appreciation differently. To me, there's an inherent respect in appreciation that is incompatible with manipulation.

Is there any form of manipulation you approve?

 

[Luminous]

Is there any form of manipulation you approve?

Depends on how you are defining manipulation.

 

[Lib]

Depends on how you are defining manipulation.

That's a good question. Let's say in the way you meant it above as incompatible with sincere appreciation.

 

[Population: 1]

Weren’t you the guy who started the thread insulting a certain type or function using stereotypes? I think you were. I believe you have a propensity for starting shit through fueling already existing tensions. I’m sure you’re very much enjoying this particular shit show you’ve created. Before you brand yourself as clever, you should consider that even a toddler knows how to start a slapping contest in a sandbox.

 

[Luminous]

That's a good question. Let's say in the way you meant it above as incompatible with sincere appreciation.

As incompatible with sincere appreciation? No, I would not approve, because that would be a lack of respect, which would mean pulling strings for purposes contrary to the best interests of the person being manipulated.

If you want to define manipulation as in influencing someone in some way generally, without them being explicitly aware, well, of course there would be times I'd approve, because that leaves plenty of room for the influence being done for purposes that are not harmful, disrespectful, or abusive.

 

[Metis]

Sincere appreciation would never be a form of manipulation.

Yes, it can be. For example, it can be competitive: One student in a class enjoys laying it on thick, and maybe he means it. At the same time, his "mentor" has been advising him, and his mentor probably was the one who told him that showing appreciation was a good quality that would show him to be an enthusiastic follower as well as leader. He might really be "feeling" it, but it's clear that he aspires to a position of "teacher's pet" and wants to be given leadership responsibilities over the other students. No matter how sincerely he appreciates the opportunities or the teacher, he's being manipulative.

It's better to use caution when expressing appreciation in a situation with a power dynamic, just as one would use caution in regard to dating in that situation. IMO, appreciation should be expressed frankly and succinctly in situations like that. No or limited gushing, applauding, and other attention-drawing BS.

 

[Lib]

As incompatible with sincere appreciation? No, I would not approve, because that would be a lack of respect, which would mean pulling strings for purposes contrary to the best interests of the person being manipulated.

If you want to define manipulation as in influencing someone in some way generally, without them being explicitly aware, well, of course there would be times I'd approve, because that leaves plenty of room for the influence being done for purposes that are not harmful, disrespectful, or abusive.

I don't see a lot of difference, to me all of this translates to lying. I'd better tell it in the person's face, assuming that they are sane enough.

 

[Luminous]

Yes, it can be. For example, it can be competitive: One student in a class enjoys laying it on thick, and maybe he means it. At the same time, his "mentor" has been advising him, and his mentor probably was the one who told him that showing appreciation was a good quality that would show him to be an enthusiastic follower as well as leader. He might really be "feeling" it, but it's clear that he aspires to a position of "teacher's pet" and wants to be given leadership responsibilities over the other students. No matter how sincerely he appreciates the opportunities or the teacher, he's being manipulative.

It's better to use caution when expressing appreciation in a situation with a power dynamic, just as one would use caution in regard to dating in that situation. IMO, appreciation should be expressed frankly and succinctly in situations like that. No or limited gushing, applauding, and other attention-drawing BS.

You are right, in a way.

My worldview leans toward wanting the freedom of honest expression, though I know that isn't always the best idea. I am an idealist, after all.

 

[Luminous]

I don't see a lot of difference, to me all of this translates to lying. I'd better tell it in the person's face, assuming that they are sane enough.

Eh, it's not lying for a parent to do things their children aren't old enough to explicitly understand.

 

[Lib]

Eh, it's not lying for a parent to do things their children aren't old enough to explicitly understand.

I won't do that either. If something is true there is always a way to present it even to a small kid. Of course, I'll tell them stories and encourage their imagination but that's about it.

 

[Earl Grey]

Eh, it's not lying for a parent to do things their children aren't old enough to explicitly understand.

So, it is not lying when done with a (subjectively) good intent?

 

[Metis]

You are right, in a way.

My worldview leans toward wanting the freedom of honest expression, though I know that isn't always the best idea. I am an idealist, after all.

Sometimes people aren't aware of having mixed motives, like the guy I described.

I think that guy's an ISFJ. I've known ENTPs who readily mixed motives as well. Not so much in an ass-kissy way, but in ways that combine public philanthropic maneuvers with self-promoting. They view it as a win-win.

 

[Metis]

You are right, in a way.

My worldview leans toward wanting the freedom of honest expression, though I know that isn't always the best idea. I am an idealist, after all.

Sometimes people aren't aware of having mixed motives, like the guy I described.

I think that guy's an ISFJ. I've known ENTPs who readily mixed motives as well. Not so much in an ass-kissy way, but in ways that combine public philanthropic maneuvers with self-promoting. They view it as a win-win.

There was also a young lady in that program who expressed her appreciation like this: "Oh my god, thank you!!! I've always wanted an opportunity like that!!!!!" Way more sincere than the other dude. Gush if that's what you want to do. The key is: She wasn't attempting to "lead" a round of applause over every fucking little speech the teacher gave. She just wanted to show enthusiasm for that particular opportunity, and perhaps be offered more such opportunities in the future, by making it known that she loved it. Not a problem.

 

[Luminous]

I won't do that either. If something is true there is always a way to present it even to a small kid. Of course, I'll tell them stories and encourage their imagination but that's about it.

So, it is not lying when done with a (subjectively) good intent?

This discussion leaves room for too much in the way of misunderstanding.

Here, have an example of what I mean, say your small child doesn't like any vegetables. So you take them and put them in things they do like so they are still getting enough of the vegetables, perhaps without explicitly knowing. Is that lying? Is it manipulating? Would you try to sit your toddler down and explain the nutritional benefits of getting enough vegetables?

 

[Earl Grey]

Here, have an example of what I mean, say your small child doesn't like any vegetables. So you take them and put them in things they do like so they are still getting enough of the vegetables, perhaps without explicitly knowing. Is that lying? Is it manipulating? Would you try to sit your toddler down and explain the nutritional benefits of getting enough vegetables?

Lying: giving a vegetable, saying 'this is candy'
A toddler doesn't know what a vegetable is. They just know something tastes bad, you made that bad thing taste better.

Technically speaking, it's not lying, since they do not have the information (or a good understanding of it) to begin with. Lying consists of twisting the truth ('this is not a vegetable!'). You just added another metaphorical ingredient to make it more palatable (literally, in this example), but it remains that the veggie is a veggie and you did not outright say that it was not, or that it was not there. Manipulating? Maybe, but hardly a good example of one.

 

[Metis]

You are right, in a way. My worldview leans toward wanting the freedom of honest expression, though I know that isn't always the best idea. I am an idealist, after all.

Sometimes people aren't aware of having mixed motives, like the guy I described. I think that guy's an ISFJ. I've known ENTPs who readily mixed motives as well. Not so much in an ass-kissy way, but in ways that combine public philanthropic maneuvers with self-promoting. They view it as a win-win.

There was also a young lady in that program who expressed her appreciation like this: "Oh my god, thank you!!! I've always wanted an opportunity like that!!!!!" Way more sincere than the other dude. Gush if that's what you want to do. The key is: She wasn't attempting to "lead" a round of applause over every fucking little speech the teacher gave. She just wanted to show enthusiasm for that particular opportunity, and perhaps be offered more such opportunities in the future, by making it known that she loved it. Not a problem.

All 3 of those examples, the asskissy guy, the ENTP example, and the gushing student, might sincerely feel appreciation or, in the ENTP case, value the recipient of the philanthropy. The difference is what outcome they're trying to achieve by expressing it in the ways they choose.

 

[Sacrophagus]

Sincere appreciation would never be a form of manipulation.

I send sycophants back home with their bribes and tails between their legs. I can surely make the difference between an appreciative genuine present and the latter. Though my colossal ego is self-sustaining and self-preserving, I humbly accept their token of gratitude, and I reply to that gratitude my way.

Flattery is not of my virtues. I state facts about people and I'd rather receive the same or nothing, though I probably already know. If you're a demure and inspiring person, you are that. If you're a waste of space, you are that.

 

[ceecee]

*pulls up chair*

I love these ENTJ/ESTJ threads.

 

[Bush]

Valuing other folks' opinions is always good. Or hearing them out in the first place.

If you would be able replace your team with a set of crash test dummies or Old Navy mannequins and still get the same results -- your results -- out of meetings and such, you may as well cut the bullshit and buy some of those.