Water for My Absinthe

[wildcat]

INTP = Ti, Ne, Ni, Te, Fi, Se, Si, Fe (I think that was the 8 functions as previously discussed)
INTJ = Ni, Te, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, Fi, Se
ISFP = Fi, Se, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne, Ni, Te
ESFJ = Fe, Si, Se, Fi, Te, Ni, Ne, Ti

I wonder if that makes sense as a progression of learning? Seems too introverted to me.

Oh and you know the thing about IPs being EJs... well I thought that the whole T/J thing was in reference to the primary function. If you have a primary function as judging (T or F) then you're a J, get a perceiving function (S or N) and you're a P, hence the names judging and perceptive. So why is this not carried through? Why are INTJ and INTP the way around that they are and not INTJs being INTPs and vice versa? I realise it would make no change to the actual personality profile but it would make the system more consistent.

What is the dichotomy of E?

J/P.

Introversion is the other side.

 

[Xander]

What is the dichotomy of E?

J/P.

Introversion is the other side.

I think the needle skipped on that one my friend

I have the pattern however, I think.
Extroverts determine their primary function by how they treat the external world.
Introverts are determined by how they treat their internal world.

Introverts who are Ps do seem to be quite relaxed about things and let things slide, however they also seem to be more consistent than IJs. The INTJ I know will organise things but he. himself, is exempt from such organisation. Myself, as an INTP, I feel more compelled to ensure that I am consistent and almost organised within myself but I don't apply such ideas to the external world.

Therefore introverts who are Ps have the introverted judging preference as their first.

Hmm that's tenuous. However it does explain things.

 

[wildcat]

I think the needle skipped on that one my friend

I have the pattern however, I think.
Extroverts determine their primary function by how they treat the external world.
Introverts are determined by how they treat their internal world.

Introverts who are Ps do seem to be quite relaxed about things and let things slide, however they also seem to be more consistent than IJs. The INTJ I know will organise things but he. himself, is exempt from such organisation. Myself, as an INTP, I feel more compelled to ensure that I am consistent and almost organised within myself but I don't apply such ideas to the external world.

Therefore introverts who are Ps have the introverted judging preference as their first.

Hmm that's tenuous. However it does explain things.

Yes you have the pattern. Good. You are clever.

But I see you are troubled.
It may seem odd that the IP has the judging function first and the IJ has the perceiving function first.

And the Socionics &Co think they are clever when they shifted those around.

It is not about the function.
It is all about the process.

Te Ni is a J process. And Ni Te is a J process.

Ne Ti is a P process. And Ti Ne is a P process.

The P/J dichotomy does not change the order in the unit. The E/I dichotomy changes the order in the unit.

The P/J dichotomy changes the order of the units.

INTP: P>J = Ti Ne > Ni Te. Reflected by the shadow: Fi Se > Si Fe
INTJ: J>P = Ni Te > Ti Ne. Reflected by the shadow: Si Fe > Fi Se

 

[Xander]

This is what I don't understand. The MBTI, as far as I understand it, is developed from the middle pair, the perception and the judging. You get NTs, NFs, STs & SFs, that's the basic four categories, nothing to do with E/I nor J/P. The E/I determines then what arena is preferred and the J/P just shows which comes first, perceiving or judging in terms of function order.

If this is true then why does the J/P also rely on E/I unless they are adding the extra qualifier that J/P is supposed to refer to the arena most oft covered by extroverts. That kind of assumption would be most odd and awkward unless they were looking for a solution because as a standard if the person is P on the outside then they're J on the inside and vice versa. If such is so then I have yet to come across it in discussion or literature.

 

[wildcat]

This is what I don't understand. The MBTI, as far as I understand it, is developed from the middle pair, the perception and the judging. You get NTs, NFs, STs & SFs, that's the basic four categories, nothing to do with E/I nor J/P. The E/I determines then what arena is preferred and the J/P just shows which comes first, perceiving or judging in terms of function order.

If this is true then why does the J/P also rely on E/I unless they are adding the extra qualifier that J/P is supposed to refer to the arena most oft covered by extroverts. That kind of assumption would be most odd and awkward unless they were looking for a solution because as a standard if the person is P on the outside then they're J on the inside and vice versa. If such is so then I have yet to come across it in discussion or literature.

An ENXP once asked me why I am open on the inside and closed on the outside. And why my brother is open on the outside and closed on the inside?

We are both Ps, my brother and I. But I am an IN and he was an ES. (Now he is IS, but that is another story).

We have to develop all the pairs and see how they turn and twist. Psychology is for nuts.

IN IS EN ES NT ST NF SF TP FP TJ FJ IP IJ EJ EP IF IT EF...

Let us roll our sleeves and start workin'!

 

[wildcat]

The INs

undergo a self inflicted aloneness due to their rarity as a type. It is not surprising they are the essential nerds.

If the INTJs want to know about the IN stratagem the best way to learn is to study the ESTJ type in abstract first and then to add the personal touch.

This is because the difference between the two types is in the IN/ES opposition.

IN is the rarest type. When I was at school there was only one other IN besides me in a class of forty which means five per cent. The ES comprises 8 to 10 times that much people.

My father was an INTJ and I had a classmate whose father was an extreme ESTJ. He was the only boy in the class who every day wore a suit and a tie.
The father was a director of a sausage factory.
The town we lived in was built on islands. Only some of these islands were connected by a bridge. The sausage factory owner found himself a hobby. First he went to see his man in the bank. He took a shower and put on his best suit. He selected a tie to match. He combed his blond hair and did not forget to check in front of the mirror.
He said to his man in the bank he needed a lot of cash. He was gonna buy a variety of vessels. Expensive things.
He started to take people from one isle to another in his free time. He did this to show what a great chap he was. How he took care of his family. It was not enough that he had a well paid job, no. He had to have a hobby that was another well paid job.

When his son got married (in a church of course) he was all action. I very much suspect he hired security guards to keep me off the church.
This shows how stupid he was. I was not going there. I am not interested in weddings, least of all church weddings.

In a similar vain, if you are an INFJ you have to study the ESFJ and if you are an INFP you have to study the ESFP.

I do not need to tell the INTP which type he needs to study.
That is the thing about the INTP. You never need to tell him anything.

 

[wildcat]

What is the significance in the IN/ES dichotomy?

It highlights the I/E separation.

We have the 16 types.
Of them, 8 types are ambiverts; 4 types are introverts and 4 types are extraverts.

There are two different kinds of ambiverts.
The ambiversion of the ENs and that of the ISs complement each other.

The INs are the introverts.
The ESs are the extraverts.

What is XXXX?
The introverts are rare because the balance book is not in the middle of the room.

 

[wildcat]

The difference between the INs is the counterpart of the difference between the ESs.

The opposite is not the opposite of the opposite.

What turns around comes around.

You do not do a thing about it.

What is the idea of the shadow?

 

[Xander]

The INs

undergo a self inflicted aloneness due to their rarity as a type. It is not surprising they are the essential nerds.

If the INTJs want to know about the IN stratagem the best way to learn is to study the ESTJ type in abstract first and then to add the personal touch.

This is because the difference between the two types is in the IN/ES opposition.

IN is the rarest type. When I was at school there was only one other IN besides me in a class of forty which means five per cent. The ES comprises 8 to 10 times that much people.

My father was an INTJ and I had a classmate whose father was an extreme ESTJ. He was the only boy in the class who every day wore a suit and a tie.
The father was a director of a sausage factory.
The town we lived in was built on islands. Only some of these islands were connected by a bridge. The sausage factory owner found himself a hobby. First he went to see his man in the bank. He took a shower and put on his best suit. He selected a tie to match. He combed his blond hair and did not forget to check in front of the mirror.
He said to his man in the bank he needed a lot of cash. He was gonna buy a variety of vessels. Expensive things.
He started to take people from one isle to another in his free time. He did this to show what a great chap he was. How he took care of his family. It was not enough that he had a well paid job, no. He had to have a hobby that was another well paid job.

When his son got married (in a church of course) he was all action. I very much suspect he hired security guards to keep me off the church.
This shows how stupid he was. I was not going there. I am not interested in weddings, least of all church weddings.

In a similar vain, if you are an INFJ you have to study the ESFJ and if you are an INFP you have to study the ESFP.

I do not need to tell the INTP which type he needs to study.
That is the thing about the INTP. You never need to tell him anything.

Haven't you just told them that?

IN -> ES
EN -> IS

So in theory I should learn ESTP? I don't see it myself. That's more confusion (EP) and less empathy (ST), not good for an INTP.

INFP should learn ESFP? Wouldn't that cause turmoil as one is a socialite and the other more the quietly friendly type? Could cause indecision over when to extrovert and when not to.

Looking at the functional level
INTP = Ti, Ne, Si, Fe -> ESTP = Se, Ti, Fe, Ni
INFP = Fi, Ne, Si, Te -> ESFP = Se, Fi, Te, Ni

Basically it looks like your suggesting that they reinforce their primary function and learn their.. 6th function? What for?? Yes you tend to find more Ss than Ns but that's no reason to go changing to increase your mastery of S in and of itself. That's more a reason to moderate your N with a little S and learn what the differences are and what that means in terms of communication.

 

[Xander]

What is the significance in the IN/ES dichotomy?

It highlights the I/E separation.

We have the 16 types.
Of them, 8 types are ambiverts; 4 types are introverts and 4 types are extraverts.

There are two different kinds of ambiverts.
The ambiversion of the ENs and that of the ISs complement each other.

The INs are the introverts.
The ESs are the extraverts.

What is XXXX?
The introverts are rare because the balance book is not in the middle of the room.

Okay what's an ambivert?

 

[Xander]

The difference between the INs is the counterpart of the difference between the ESs.

The opposite is not the opposite of the opposite.

What turns around comes around.

You do not do a thing about it.

What is the idea of the shadow?

Yes 180 degrees plus 180 degrees returns your facing back to it's original direction. I don't understand the criticism. Where have we been talking about a 360 degree rotation?

 

[wildcat]

Okay what's an ambivert?

I read a biography of Einstein recently.

The biographer had studied the private letters of Einstein. The posts he had written to his immediate colleagues while he worked in the patent office in Bern. The period of his great discoveries.

What was the subject of the posts?

Ambiversion.

How we do equate?
By the ambiverted principle.

The ambivert is not the locker.

The ambivert has two positions.

1. The unlocked. It goes either way.
2. The locked.

 

[Xander]

Right we know that IP = EJ and that IJ = EP that's because there's only two ways of doing it and four groups to cover. However how does this rationalise out? What is it about introverted perceptives which is parallel to extroverted judgementals aside from their function order?

I think that this will be useful in understanding the system as a whole. After this point there will be the last piece of the puzzle fixed.

See if the person is NT then their preferences are either NT or TN.
If the person is SF then the preferences are either SF or FS.

The piece that is missing is which one is first and is it extroverted or introverted.

Basically there are 4 not 16 broad groups of people. NT, NF, ST & SF. This is where Jung and the MBTI start.

Within these groups there are four types. EJ, EP, IJ & IP. So we can quite reasonably say that it's not really 16 types per se but four groups and within each there are four temperaments.

However this only give us the MBTI system, it doesn't say why the system hangs together, which is what we are querying.

So why are IPs similar to EJs?
Why are IJs similar to EPs?

 

[wildcat]

Right we know that IP = EJ and that IJ = EP that's because there's only two ways of doing it and four groups to cover. However how does this rationalise out? What is it about introverted perceptives which is parallel to extroverted judgementals aside from their function order?

I think that this will be useful in understanding the system as a whole. After this point there will be the last piece of the puzzle fixed.

See if the person is NT then their preferences are either NT or TN.
If the person is SF then the preferences are either SF or FS.

The piece that is missing is which one is first and is it extroverted or introverted.

Basically there are 4 not 16 broad groups of people. NT, NF, ST & SF. This is where Jung and the MBTI start.

Within these groups there are four types. EJ, EP, IJ & IP. So we can quite reasonably say that it's not really 16 types per se but four groups and within each there are four temperaments.

However this only give us the MBTI system, it doesn't say why the system hangs together, which is what we are querying.

So why are IPs similar to EJs?
Why are IJs similar to EPs?

IP is conditionally EJ. IJ is conditionally EP.

Judgemental versus non judgemental condition.

Point counter point. Each point counter each point. How many groups in 16?

 

[Xander]

IP is conditionally EJ. IJ is conditionally EP.

Judgemental versus non judgemental condition.

Point counter point. Each point counter each point. How many groups in 16?

Okay now I have the Banana Splits theme tune running through my head... Thanks.

The counter to what now?

There's four groups, each SUBdivided into four. There are 16 subdivisions and not 16 groups. Capisce?

How is IP conditionally EJ? Are you saying that IP becomes EJ under certain conditions? If so then doesn't everybody do like that?

Have you an example? We always do much better with an example to go by.

 

[wildcat]

Okay now I have the Banana Splits theme tune running through my head... Thanks.

The counter to what now?

There's four groups, each SUBdivided into four. There are 16 subdivisions and not 16 groups. Capisce?

How is IP conditionally EJ? Are you saying that IP becomes EJ under certain conditions? If so then doesn't everybody do like that?

Have you an example? We always do much better with an example to go by.

EJ and IP oppose each other as regards to assertiveness.

EJ = assertive

In other words, to be assertive you have to be both E and J.

To be non assertive you have to be both I and P.

EP and IJ are not about assertiveness.


In a similar vain, you have to be both E and S to be extraverted.
Hence you have to be both I and N to be introverted.

IS and EN are not about extraversion.

Do you mean the Keirsey subdivision?

 

[Xander]

So if your primary function is a judging one then you're either spineless and introverted or extroverted and a pain in the ass?

That doesn't sound right. What about the shy extrovert? The shy ENTJ or the shy ESFJ?

 

[wildcat]

So if your primary function is a judging one then you're either spineless and introverted or extroverted and a pain in the ass?

That doesn't sound right. What about the shy extrovert? The shy ENTJ or the shy ESFJ?

The shy ESFJ? You are joking. Assertive people are not shy.
ENTJ is not an extravert, true. But if need be he can turn himself on. When he has the motive.
What do you mean by four groups? What groups?

If you have lost your vertebral column I decisively advise you to seek a doctor.

 

[runvardh]

The shy ESFJ? You are joking. Assertive people are not shy.
ENTJ is not an extravert, true. But if need be he can turn himself on. When he has the motive.
What do you mean by four groups? What groups?

If you have lost your vertebral column I decisively advise you to seek a doctor.

my ENTJ friend is getting depressed from lack of motive, and it's making her more of a pain in the ass than when she is in a good mood...

 

[wildcat]

my ENTJ friend is getting depressed from lack of motive, and it's making her more of a pain in the ass than when she is in a good mood...

She maybe frustrated if she has not discovered her vocation, fate or destiny.
The motive is there but she has to discover it.