Water for My Absinthe

[wildcat]

Right I know you don't like me splitting posts but I'm going to go through this a little more piecemeal to see if I can find the divergence between our thinking.

Question #1 would be "Add what?" but I think that's irrelevant.

The average result of the functions is meaningless as the primary is divided sixteen ways, as is the secondary and so on. Unless you figure in the percentage portion of population with each type then you'd end up with a flat line on your graph showing nothing.

I am intuiting that perhaps a better word would be pattern or base pattern (okay that's a phrase but you know what I mean... I hope). The basic pattern as we were discussing those many moons ago on MBTIc as it was produced some of the most helpful thinking on processes I've encountered but it wasn't regarding numbers or what total you get if you add them all up (I presume that works for you to help you remember and/ or understand but to me it's just a number). My personal gem that I found during that conversation was the identifying of what "switches" existed.

Say you started with ESTJ you'd have
Te Si Ne Fi
okay now flick the E/I switch and go to ISTJ
Si Te Fi Ne
okay so flick the E/I switch back and flick the S/N switch instead, making ENTJ
Te Ni Se Fi
Now flick that back and flick the P/J switch making ESTP
Se Ti Fe Ni

That kinda shows how the whole system runs and so from a fixed starting position you can progress to any other types function order. However you have to know one function order first.

If we could work from that then we should be able to produce a concise method of working out function orders from types.

In the words of the famous ENTP "well you started it".

Why were you quoting 9 as the answer if it has no place?

Okay you lost me there.

I believe your thinking that the whole thing about fence posts and fence panels is leading to the idea that the distance between two fence posts is relevant..it's not.
Count to 7.
1,2,3,4,5,6&7. 7 is the last number and there are 7 numbers there. However that would be counting the fence panels.
To count the fence posts, depending on your philosophy, it's 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7. That's still ending in seven but it counts eight numbers because it acknowledges your starting position and that you do touch on eight numbers when counting to seven.

Does this clear things up a little?

I see now we are in a real mess, old boy. The fault is entirely mine, though.
I have difficulty to get rid of the asperger notion that everybody knows what is in my head. And therefore the expression is slippy at time.

English is the language of idioms, yes. The 9 has a place. It is the odd piece.

With the average I mean the majority. The idea of a parlamentary democracy is that it represents the majority. When you look at the cognitive processes thread, you see what is the majority function order for INTP.
The majority function order has significance because it represents the media.
The average.
In Germany at one time the majority of people were for Hitler; we could say that the average opinion was that Hitler was good for Germany.

I take a train in Travemunde and go to Bremen.

1. Station: Travemunde.
1. Stretch.
2. Station: Lubeck.
2. Stretch.
3. Station: Hamburg.
3. Stretch.
4. Station. Bremen.

The Travemunde Station is not a zero station. It exists. I know. I have been there.

You are right. If we know the one base pattern we know them all.
The difficulty is to agree about the one

 

[wildcat]

I say the base pattern for INTP is Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe.

Answers.Com gives the sanctioned MBTI pattern which is very different from this. The holy writ.

Then there is the MBTI Wikipedia. A contradiction again.

Then there is the Cognitive Processes thread in the intpc. The results of the INTP members.

What is the typical function order of the results? Accepting the individual variance.

Look at these three models. Then look at the cognitive processes results.
Whose model is it that fits like a glove?

Given the individual variance, of course.

Why do some of these authors give Si in place of Ni? Because of a few writings of Jung which they misinterpret? Why do they not use their head?

You cannot replace logic.

 

[wildcat]

What is the difference bw the INTP Ti and the ISTP Ti?

The primary function of the S is conscious.
The primary function of the N however is unconscious.

There exists no other difference.

The conscious/unconcious variance is not about logic.

Nor is it about S or N per se.

Nor is it about the order in the unit.

INTP: Ti Ne. Does Ne check the Ti? No.
Ti checks the Ne.

ISTP: Ti Se. Does Se check the Ti? No.
Ti checks the Se.

Why? Because the station does not move when the train moves. Or vice versa.

 

[Xander]

I understand the 9 now and it's use.

You have paired off the functions, opposites together.
Te with Fi
Ne with Si and so on.

Where one is in position x the other is in position 9-x. That is what you are trying to express I think.

My point was that for an XXXX what is the first function? I think that once that is established then we can formulate a singular pattern theory which should then allow us to construct the function order off minimal information.

As to your use of average, it makes much more sense in that context. You meant average example. I understand that bit now.

Logic however, I think you grant it too much credit. Logic does not say whether your functions should run XXXXYYYY (X being your prefered functions and Y being their opposite) or XXYYXXYY. We have discussed that before.

I think that one thing to realise in regards to typing systems is that no one is identified by that system. I have never met an ENTJ. I have met someone who falls within the broad category labelled ENTJ but he was not the alpha model, the person for whom the type was written, the benchmark. As such then perhaps XXXXYYYY is the function model for the person who does not exist and hence why I find the model unrealistic?

 

[wildcat]

Why then the ESTJs are good in basic math?
Because they follow the rules.

Do they understand the principle behind the rules?

Does it matter?

 

[Xander]

What is the difference bw the INTP Ti and the ISTP Ti?

The primary function of the S is conscious.
The primary function of the N however is unconscious.

There exists no other difference.

Whoa!!! Gross over simplification!! There are vast differences in function between S and N. The location of the information which they draw from is more of a detail than anything and, I'd say, far too specialised to represent the difference in any broad measure.

The conscious/unconcious variance is not about logic.

Nor is it about S or N per se.

Nor is it about the order in the unit.

INTP: Ti Ne. Does Ne check the Ti? No.
Ti checks the Ne.

ISTP: Ti Se. Does Se check the Ti? No.
Ti checks the Se.

Only because they are I. Well that's my first theory.

Do introverts check their information and extroverts check their working out?

Why? Because the station does not move when the train moves. Or vice versa.

Okay that just throws me completely. Consider me the sleepers on which your train just passed straight over

 

[Xander]

Why then the ESTJs are good in basic math?

Te probably.

Because they follow the rules.

SJ

Do they understand the principle behind the rules?

Does it matter?

To the NT sitting next to him it would matter but I'm fairly certain that the ST would see it more as cause and effect. The effect validating the cause. Ergo they do not need to understand why it works, only that it works and should be applied in similar situations (ok to us it looks like they have to be identical situations but that's cause were Ns ).

 

[runvardh]

I do. Do you as an INFP see yourself as an introverted intuiter?

Would you say you are naturally inclined towards your Ni function?

Or maybe it appears only under stress?

It feels more like a function I have to consciously engage. Ne on the other hand is what got me caring enough to read in the first place and I have that on automatically.

 

[wildcat]

It feels more like a function I have to consciously engage. Ne on the other hand is what got me caring enough to read in the first place and I have that on automatically.

So Ni is your shadow function.
Do you know your function order?
Would you like to do the Cognitive Processes Test and give here the results?

 

[wildcat]

Te probably.

SJ

To the NT sitting next to him it would matter but I'm fairly certain that the ST would see it more as cause and effect. The effect validating the cause. Ergo they do not need to understand why it works, only that it works and should be applied in similar situations (ok to us it looks like they have to be identical situations but that's cause were Ns ).

Okay. Agreed so far.

But this thing is not cleared yet.

The ESTJ has Si as the auxiliary function. I agree.

Answers.Com gives Si as the 3rd function for the INFP.

INFP is the exact opposite of the ESTJ.

The functions do not correspond the letters?

What are the letters there for? If they do not have any consequence whatever?

Answers.Com gives the reason for the high place of the Si in the INFP.
It is absent mindedness. Si makes the INFP absent minded.

Why the Si does not make the ESTJ absent minded at all? The ESTJ has even more Si.

Is absent mindedness a character of Si?

Do you think my questions are relevant?

 

[runvardh]

So Ni is your shadow function.
Do you know your function order?
Would you like to do the Cognitive Processes Test and give here the results?

If I remember correctly it ends up Fi Ne Ni Te Si Fe Se Ti

 

[wildcat]

I understand the 9 now and it's use.

You have paired off the functions, opposites together.
Te with Fi
Ne with Si and so on.

Where one is in position x the other is in position 9-x. That is what you are trying to express I think.

My point was that for an XXXX what is the first function? I think that once that is established then we can formulate a singular pattern theory which should then allow us to construct the function order off minimal information.

As to your use of average, it makes much more sense in that context. You meant average example. I understand that bit now.

Logic however, I think you grant it too much credit. Logic does not say whether your functions should run XXXXYYYY (X being your prefered functions and Y being their opposite) or XXYYXXYY. We have discussed that before.

I think that one thing to realise in regards to typing systems is that no one is identified by that system. I have never met an ENTJ. I have met someone who falls within the broad category labelled ENTJ but he was not the alpha model, the person for whom the type was written, the benchmark. As such then perhaps XXXXYYYY is the function model for the person who does not exist and hence why I find the model unrealistic?

Is the model realistic?
What would Jesus say?

A religious analogy would strike very strange in this context.
Was Jesus realistic?
No.
Did he know he was not realistic?
Yes.
What is realisn good for? Where does realism stand?
It stands on the level of what is.
Is the purpose for a model to stand on the level of what is?
No. The model is always a bit ahead.

Good that we agree about the 9! It makes everything so much easier.

The XXXX societywise or as an abstract principle?

Societywise there is the XXXX male and the female.

According to Eysenck men tilt towards extraversion and thinking.

And women towards introversion and feeling.

They both tilt towards S and J.

When you go about the street you always recognize the N and even the P.

In the college the P is strikingly absent. The postgraduates are predominantly NJ. The undergraduates are predominantly SJ. They work while they study and leave the college after graduation.

In my grammar school the SPs were not accepted. They were thrown out. All of them. The NPs were strikingly absent. I do not think they made it in the entry examination.

In jail there may be 9 Ps out of 10 prisoners.

Hence the XXXX society model may not reflect the average.

Then there is the type average model. You say my model is xxxxyyyy.
Not entirely. Mt P/J is xxyyxxyy.
I admit it has troubled me. But I can not shake it; xxxxyyyy is not found.

By 9 we initially know four of the eight functions.
It is only the middle functions we need to be concerned about.

The model is more logical, more pure, more extreme than any individual can attain to be.

Life is not perfect.

That is what the organized religious people do not understand.
The Catholic Church does not allow women to be priests.
And there exists priests in the protestant parishes where male priests refuse to work with female priests.
This nonsense is because Paul said that women should be quiet in the church.
Paul was an ESTJ. The realist. The leveller. He believed in the statues of society. He was no Jesus. Not a reformer.

He did not like Peter, a very different, childlike man.

Jesus however gave Peter the keys of the kingdom.

A very famous novel. The author wanted to say that the high priests are the realists and the idealists, men like Peter, are the lowest of the low.
In the church today.

 

[wildcat]

If I remember correctly it ends up Fi Ne Ni Te Si Fe Se Ti

Thank you runvardh.

 

[Xander]

Whoa!!!

Hold up there Kitty your coming in and out of focus as you go!

Right first up let's set down our definites
If X is the preference and Y is it's opposite then we use Z as undefined.
The agreed pattern is XXZZZZYY yes?
We are trying to figure out the middle pairs logically within the pattern.

As to the INFP and ESTJ problem.. does it follow that because the XXZZZZYY pattern has become YYZZZZXX that the middle pairs are also perfectly mirrored? Is this train you keep referring to on a branch line only capable of going through the stations in one order be it starting from the beginning or the end or can the train return via a different layout of track and hence visit each station in a slightly altered order?

Say that both the X stations are close together and so are the Y stations. The Z stations are located in between the X and the Y stations but are not laid out in a linear fashion. Hence depending on which track is picked those middle stations can be visited in various sequences.

As such you could get
X-X-Z1-Z2-Z3-Z4-Y-Y
or
X-X-Z3-Z2-Z4-Z1-Y-Y

Does that help?

 

[Xander]

Oh yeah and is the normal really that Males are ESTJ and females are ISFJ ?

For which country? In England the norm for males is more ISTJ than ESTJ. I admit though that the universal norm is quite possibly SJ.

I know that S/N is supposed to be 75/25 % I wonder what the percentages are for J/P? Anybody know?

 

[wildcat]

Oh yeah and is the normal really that Males are ESTJ and females are ISFJ ?

For which country? In England the norm for males is more ISTJ than ESTJ. I admit though that the universal norm is quite possibly SJ.

I know that S/N is supposed to be 75/25 % I wonder what the percentages are for J/P? Anybody know?

I lived in England on and off 1964 - 1968.
I agree about the ISTJ.

Among males, the ISTJ is the thing. They are cordial, polite, reserved but pleasant. They have a dry sense of humour.

I got very well along with the species. I matched their good manners. And I was the foreigner.
They expect all foreigners to be a little eccentric.

Meanwhile I kept away from the ESTJs.
Whenever I had to deal with them I said as little as possible.
Instead I admired their well tailored suits while listening to the posh and stilted accents.

They had the habit of exercising a little bit of a strain whenever we came together but tried to hide it under an arrogant exterior.

Usually they lectured about how things are done and about the curriculum and the norm blah blah.

The interview took the time of circa twenty minutes.
For an understandable reason I could not look at my watch.

Hence I counted the minutes and the seconds in my head instead of listening to the routine blah blah.

So I knew the time was up exactly before the ESTJ picked up the top paper on the top file about reach.

He retorted under breath:

Yes wildcat. I know you are a bright chap and we do not need to discuss this unpleasant thing any more.

I said:
Sir.

Before I closed the door, forever so softly, I glanced around.

He was reading the paper.

Why?

 

[Xander]

I think that INTPs tend to do the opposite of ESTJs. The ESTJ finds they cannot dismiss the INTP without somehow feeling like their overlooking something, however they cannot follow the INTP either. That's got to be frustrating.

Oh and the guy was probably reading a guide to Wildcat's thrust discretely into a newspaper so he could review what you'd just said and try and make sense out of it

 

[wildcat]

Whoa!!!

Hold up there Kitty your coming in and out of focus as you go!

Right first up let's set down our definites
If X is the preference and Y is it's opposite then we use Z as undefined.
The agreed pattern is XXZZZZYY yes?
We are trying to figure out the middle pairs logically within the pattern.

As to the INFP and ESTJ problem.. does it follow that because the XXZZZZYY pattern has become YYZZZZXX that the middle pairs are also perfectly mirrored? Is this train you keep referring to on a branch line only capable of going through the stations in one order be it starting from the beginning or the end or can the train return via a different layout of track and hence visit each station in a slightly altered order?

Say that both the X stations are close together and so are the Y stations. The Z stations are located in between the X and the Y stations but are not laid out in a linear fashion. Hence depending on which track is picked those middle stations can be visited in various sequences.

As such you could get
X-X-Z1-Z2-Z3-Z4-Y-Y
or
X-X-Z3-Z2-Z4-Z1-Y-Y

Does that help?

Ok let us have the INTP as an example.. We agree we initially know the position of the Ti/Fe (1st/8th repectively) and the Ne/Si (2nd/7th repectively).
And then we have the middle functions to be put into place.

What are the missing pieces? They are Se, Ni, Fi, Te.

Hence our hands are tied. We have no freedom. The pieces are there already in their place.

Ti/Fe is the Te/Fi in a transposition and Ne/Si is the Ni/Se in a transposition.

There is no way out. The cul de sac. The blind man song.

Ti/Fe = 1st/8th = Te/Fi = 4th/5th;

Ne/Si = 2nd/7th = Ni/Se = 3rd/6th

-5+5-3+3=0

The train can return via a different layout of track but not via a different layout of rail

 

[wildcat]

INTP

The station 1
The first track: Ti

The station 2
The second track: Ne

The station 3
The third track: Ni

The station 4
The fourth track: Te

The station 5
The fifth track: Fi

The station 6
The sixth track: Se

The station 7
The seventh track: Si

The station 8
The eighth track: Fe

The station 9

The linear comes in handy.

But.

We are not talking about two end stations here.

A room has four walls.

Stations are not tracks.

And the rooms are not the walls.

They are confined by the walls.

What are the numbers that equate?

And why do they equate in their respective position?

 

[Xander]

INTP = Ti, Ne, Ni, Te, Fi, Se, Si, Fe (I think that was the 8 functions as previously discussed)
INTJ = Ni, Te, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, Fi, Se
ISFP = Fi, Se, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne, Ni, Te
ESFJ = Fe, Si, Se, Fi, Te, Ni, Ne, Ti

I wonder if that makes sense as a progression of learning? Seems too introverted to me.

Oh and you know the thing about IPs being EJs... well I thought that the whole T/J thing was in reference to the primary function. If you have a primary function as judging (T or F) then you're a J, get a perceiving function (S or N) and you're a P, hence the names judging and perceptive. So why is this not carried through? Why are INTJ and INTP the way around that they are and not INTJs being INTPs and vice versa? I realise it would make no change to the actual personality profile but it would make the system more consistent.