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Avoidance of Feelings = Ignorance of Facts? What Does that say About Ts?

Mempy

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I've realized something that I'm not sure is true or not, but that seems very true. I haven't rigorously examined it yet, but here it is:

I often ignore things or don't accept things because they are too painful to accept, and I know this as soon as I start to try to think about them and objectively asses them, and because I unconsciously know it is going to be a realization that leads to a lot of pain I immediately avoid thinking about it, in fact become confused about it; I find it hard to compute, because my mind seems to be resisting feeling that pain by resisting acknowledging that fact.

But not acknowledging that one fact often makes me confused about the entire context of that fact and all the facts related to it. In other words, if I'm trying to examine a topic and come to an opinion about it, the omission of just one or two facts can completely confuse me about the entire topic. But it's a confusion I cannot think away, because again and again my mind unconsciously butts up against this inner barrier to understanding and logical soundness. Hmmm.

Also, this conflict seems to lead to anxiety, because part of me really wants to look at that thing, knows I must for my own sake, because how can an organism survive when it does not acknowledge and process reality? But some part of me also knows that it will be painful for me, very painful. And a part of me knows that I do not know how to adequately cope with that pain. So it's a dilemma.

In the end, usually the hand that says, "Ignorance!" wins, perhaps because it thinks this is the best way to cope. And maybe, in fact, it is, since it seems to believe (perhaps rightly) that I do not know how to cope with my emotional pain healthily - so the best thing to do is to not face it. This conflict is often a completely unconscious one, mind you; until now.

Do you suppose virtually everyone is predisposed to this behavior, or just certain people? Another question that veers a little off-topic but that I think is still relevant: What do you think is meant when a person says, "Ts have trouble processing their emotions"? Do you think it means they have trouble acknowledging them, feeling them, or being aware of them at any level of consciousness? Do you think it means they have trouble coping with those emotions?

The reason I'm asking is because it seems Ts seem to run up against this problem a lot less than Fs. But if they're said to have trouble processing their emotions, whatever that means really, how can this be? Does not the running from emotions seem to lead to this ignorance of reality, for purposes of protection? [Edit: Is running from emotions similar to or different from not being able to process them?] If you are afraid to feel a feeling, you might refuse to acknowledge something because you aren't sure you can cope with the pain comes with acknowledging this reality...

So my final question is, what exactly is the nature of the relationship Ts share with emotions and feelings? Do they suppress/repress? Do they logically analyze the reasons for their emotions, which can be found in their perceptions, and evaluate whether their perception of reality is right or not, thus eliminating unnecessary (and inaccurate, since they are based on inaccurate facts) emotions?

Or do they, as I am beginning to wonder, actually have an EASIER time feeling coping with their emotions than Fs, for whatever reason?

So here is a brief summary of my logical reasoning, and it is this sequence of logical deductions I want you to address: (1) Being afraid to feel a feeling leads to ignorance of a fact which is the cause of that painful feeling. Do you think this is true? Why or why not? (2) Do NTs seem to run up against this conflict I have described less than Fs? Why or why not? (3) If you agree that they seem to run up against this conflict less than Fs, what does that say about the nature of their relationship to their feelings? Does it actually mean they have an easier time feeling their feelings and facing them?

Is my logical analysis at any step wrong? Where? Why?

I really hope you guys follow me. Your thoughts? Need a couple clarifications? Fire away.
 

Totenkindly

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I only skimmed now, I'll be back later, it's a good post. :)

I noticed this independently with F's. They can repress facts that bring certain feelings to mind they don't like. Or I'll be talking to one about something they find painful, and suddenly they just drop the topic and/or gloss over the experience that they found painful, or talk about it suddenly in very vague words that minimize how bad they obviously found it.

I can feel some very intense things, they hurt very badly sometimes. (I've talked alot about some very painful things here at times.)
But I can't block them out just because I don't like them.
Facts are facts, and reality is reality.
I can't shut that out.

(And in fact, the more they hurt, the more interesting I find them and the more I want to understand them.)

T's tend to treat feelings like objects and turn them over and over again in their hands.

They can "depersonalize" feelings more easily and treat them like things, if they're painful, but then they don't have to avoid them altogether like F's usually want to.
 

Mempy

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But I can't block them out just because I don't like them.
Facts are facts, and reality is reality.
I can't shut that out.
T's tend to treat feelings like objects and turn them over and over again in their hands. They can "depersonalize" feelings more easily and treat them like things, if they're painful, but then they don't have to avoid them altogether.

Ah! That clarifies things for me quite a bit. Interesting. Thank you so much for responding, Jennifer! :) Depersonalize. What exactly do you mean by "depersonalize"? Can you elaborate on what that is all about for me? What's another way of describing that process? What is one actually doing when they're depersonalizing a feeling? How do you treat a feeling like a thing? What's that like?

Yes, I think it very much is a big problem with Fs. Is it because their feelings are so much more personal, i.e. central to their thought process and consciousness and identity? (Now I think I see more clearly what you might have meant by "depersonalize," after defining personalize. :D)
 

Nocapszy

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Pardon my penchant for metaphor -- Depersonalize: To go from hug to handshake.

But... it's not always easy even for T.
You fuckers won't get a whole lot of this out of me but I'll confess right now to an experience which I spent maybe 99 hours sitting in my room or wherever else (not all at once) thinking about. Actually come to think of it, it happened (or well... exposed itself) day of the meetup in september. What a fabulous distraction. So I wasn't quite myself, but I wasn't so off that I wasn't me.
That is to say, I likely would have acted almost identically. Maybe a bit louder in the beginning, but nothing else would have been different.

I did what Jennifer said about turning it over in my head.
I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accommodate the situation.
When I realized there was nothing to be done, I just moved on. I said; Fuck it. Next time I'll ____ when ____ to preempt ____.

It just turned into a plan for next time or rather hopefully, later, this time. Don't fuck it up again. But while I was fully invested in the situation there was genuine feeling there (else I'd not have spent such a spell ruminating).

I do hesitate to get involved in that kind of shit anymore though. That doesn't quite count the same as ignoring. Just not experimenting.
 
V

violaine

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I often ignore things or don't accept things because they are too painful to accept, and I know this as soon as I start to try to think about them and objectively asses them, and because I unconsciously know it is going to be a realization that leads to a lot of pain I immediately avoid thinking about it, in fact become confused about it; I find it hard to compute, because my mind seems to be resisting feeling that pain by resisting acknowledging that fact.

^I personally don't do this afaik. I'm compelled to clear those negative emotions which means facing them, because I don't want to feel a certain way. It might take me a moment to regroup in order to do it.

I noticed this independently with F's. They can repress facts that bring certain feelings to mind they don't like. Or I'll be talking to one about something they find painful, and suddenly they just drop the topic and/or gloss over the experience that they found painful, or talk about it suddenly in very vague words that minimize how bad they obviously found it.

I rarely talk about something deeply painful to me and never with someone I don't know well. I don't ignore facts or my feelings around them. But I do control my reactions and what I share with people. If it's pre-existing, I will have turned whatever it is over in my mind, in order to try and find a way out of feeling that way. Which may just be down to acceptance for those unchangeable situations (e.g. death of a loved one.)

I think an F may really not want to feel a certain way and will try and find a way out (sometimes by pushing through it, others I guess must try and ignore it.) The Ts I've known very well (INTJ, ISTJ, ENTJ) seem much more likely to just accept the situation as is. (Which was sometimes a bad thing in the long term in their own personal circumstances.) This is just what I've observed with the Ts I've known, or that's what it looks like from the outside.


(And in fact, the more they hurt, the more interesting I find them and the more I want to understand them.)

^I do this too, it's how I work through things. Though I will be experiencing pain while I'm thinking about those things until it gets to the point that it doesn't hurt anymore.

EDIT: Good topic!
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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I only read the title and a few sentences here and there (would appreciate a summary, Memfy, kthnx) but, my initial reaction is that there's a misconception (or maybe just another definition) of the thinking function. I don't think of it as avoidance of feelings at all, I think of it more as what guides the analytical process. You could even say that the opposite is true about Thinkers, that they are MORE in tune with their feelings, because they are used to sifting their own personal feelings from their analysis. (You could say that, but I'm not sure it's necessarily true, either.)

On the outside, it looks like Thinkers are callous because they dismiss feelings, but I would submit that it's really only in the analytical process that feelings are...not ignored, but not not emphasized. In the realm of introspection, in contrast, feelings are very significant, and the Thinkers can give them due attention, even if they fall into the pattern of going into analytic mode and trying to resolve them impatiently.
 

kyuuei

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I can't speak for T's.. but I know that while I don't ignore facts, I hunger for truth as much as the next.. I'm not a fan of ignorance no matter how comfy the couch is.

I think it's just that since I cannot turn my feelings into the same objects as, say, a memory of waiting in line at a check out counter.. seeing as how my emotions are so easily evoked, I'd rather not speak of something altogether to avoid the heartache. I'm aware of it's existance, and sometimes when I feel I NEED to talk about things I do.. but otherwise, if I were going to feel, I'd rather it not be depressing and angry.
 

Mempy

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Sanveane said:
^I personally don't do this afaik. I'm compelled to clear those negative emotions which means facing them, because I don't want to feel a certain way. It might take me a moment to regroup in order to do it.

I don't like to feel negative emotions either; they are inherently painful to feel. But usually, instead of realizing that feeling the emotion means it will then lessen or go away entirely, I try to find some worldview that allows me to perceive the facts while not experiencing pain, but usually at the cost of the facts themselves, since I do not think it is possible to perceive facts and not sometimes feel pain.

In effect, I try to change my inner world (i.e., my level of happiness) by changing my perception of the outer world, which is not always bad, but when it is done at the cost of the facts it cannot be good.

It is not bad when one seeks to understand why a particular emotion came into being. For instance, just today I noticed that I was annoyed whenever I saw a college girl walking on campus in 50-degree weather in really short shorts. I then began to analyze why I was annoyed with this, and if my annoyance was logically valid or not. [Edit: I think this analytical process ties into what Edahn was saying about how emotions guide the analytical process. This is exactly what I think and I'll explain why, but we might be thinking this for different reasons, Edahn.]

This process, I think, is helpful. I think it important to analyze whether the reality that is causing our feelings - positive or negative - is in fact reality, and not an erroneous interpretation of reality or an inaccurate assessment of the situation. Because I do believe the emotions we feel are simply a product of how we perceive facts; I am not inclined to believe that emotions spontaneously arise for no reason at all. They may spontaneously arise, but they seem to always do so for a reason that is tied to our perception of reality. [Edit: If we perceive an aspect of reality to be harmful to us, we will feel negatively, but if we perceive an aspect of reality to be beneficial or helpful to us, we will feel positively.]

I have long sought a worldview that allowed me to be both objective about the world while not having to feel much pain, but I don't think this (necessarily) is possible. Certainly, it is not possible to ignore/avoid one's feelings and still accurately see reality. In this sense, processing our emotions adequately is an essential tool for processing reality accurately.

I mean, yes, there is a lot of happiness to be had in healthy, objective and truthful ways. I am not saying one has to resign oneself to unhappiness in order to see reality accurately. In fact, I think it is only by using our reasoning, and by using our emotions to guide our reasoning, that we can accurately know reality, and I think that to the degree that we accurately know reality, we will be happy. I think our emotions play an important role, extremely important, in the objective acceptance of reality. And a lot of these emotions are painful, but they still cannot be avoided or overlooked out of fear.

Acknowledging and feeling our feelings about a situation means we are allowing ourselves the use of a tool by which we can evaluate whether something is harmful or helpful to us, and why it is that we seem to think it is harmful or helpful to us - and finally, whether it actually IS harmful or helpful to us. Reasoning has already come in by this point, but our emotions alert us to what deserves examination, as Jennifer illustrated when she said, "In fact, the more painful something is, the more I want to understand it" (uh, not quoting verbatum, sorry). It is as if our emotions are the signal for what is significant with regard to our well-being and survival. They are what call us to examine reality. Without them, would we have any desire to examine anything with our reasoning? We wouldn't, would we? We would also have no reason to live, right. And so it seems that the thing which is necessary for survival is also our reason to survive.

Hmmmm. This topic has proven SO interesting! Yee! :D

Also, some thought with regard to what Jennifer meant by "treating emotions like things": A thing. Something that is not alive and not trying to harm you. It is inanimate in the sense that it has no will of its own and therefore can have no intentions, positive or negative; therefore it is harmless even if it is painful to feel, because once it is felt and faced it does not stick around to bother you; it leaves or lessens. It is not alive. Am I even close to capturing the essence of what it means to treat an emotion like a thing? It is clear to me that Ts do not seem to find emotions as threatening or as frightening as Fs, for if they did they would be predisposed to do the same thing which Fs do, which is avoid pain by avoiding facts. Hmmm... I'm still pondering what the quintessential difference is between how Ts regard feelings and how Fs regard feelings, and why that difference might exist.
 

millerm277

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So my final question is, what exactly is the nature of the relationship Ts share with emotions and feelings?

They're like a physical thing. I examine them and try to figure them out, if doing so seems like a productive thing to do.

Do they suppress/repress?

Not from myself, generally. (I can block them out if I want to, but I prefer not to hide from reality.). I supress/repress the expression of those feelings/emotions, but that is more due to a personal preference to keep them to myself, and deal with them internally.

Do they logically analyze the reasons for their emotions, which can be found in their perceptions, and evaluate whether their perception of reality is right or not, thus eliminating unnecessary (and inaccurate, since they are based on inaccurate facts) emotions?

Yes. I am constantly thinking about them, along with many other things. It's part of why I seem to "space-out" during boring periods of time. (Such as many of my classes). I am always focused on something, if the physical world is not holding my attention, I am focused on something internally, which can and does include emotions/feelings.
 

Totenkindly

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I rarely talk about something deeply painful to me and never with someone I don't know well. I don't repress facts or my feelings around it. But I do control my reactions and what I share with people. If it's pre-existing, I will have turned whatever it is over in my mind, in order to try and find a way out of feeling that way. Which may just be down to acceptance for those unchangeable situations (e.g. death of a loved one.)

Maybe that is more what I was trying to say -- I don't mind talking about my feelings even when they're horrible. To me, it's something to describe and understand... My INFx friends tend to just gloss over stuff that is painful, unless they feel very strong or very safe.
 
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violaine

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I don't like the feel negative emotions either; they are inherently painful to feel. But usually, instead of realizing that feeling the emotion means it will then lessen or go away entirely, I try to find some worldview that allows me to perceive the facts in such a way that they are not painful.

Yup, I think it's the same catalyst (i.e. not wanting to feel a certain way) but different reactions...

Maybe that is more what I was trying to say -- I don't mind talking about my feelings even when they're horrible. To me, it's something to describe and understand... My INFx friends tend to just gloss over stuff that is painful, unless they feel very strong or very safe.

Yeah, there are a lot of reasons I think people gloss over but a huge one for me is I don't know sometimes if the other person can handle it. And I don't want to cause them discomfort so I'd just rather deal with it myself. Of course, that's not always the best way to go about things...
 

Mempy

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I did what Jennifer said about turning it over in my head.
I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accommodate the situation.
When I realized there was nothing to be done, I just moved on. I said; Fuck it. Next time I'll ____ when ____ to preempt ____.

Hmm. I need some clarification and eleboration, particularly on the bolded. This process you're describing sounds familiar; it sounds like what Jennifer was describing, what Edahn was describing, and what Millerm was describing: the process of analyzing emotions. But I'm interested to understand what you meant by, "I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accomodate the situaton." And some explanation of "Next time I'll [blank] when [blank] to preemt [blank]."

Jennifer said:
Maybe that is more what I was trying to say -- I don't mind talking about my feelings even when they're horrible. To me, it's something to describe and understand... My INFx friends tend to just gloss over stuff that is painful, unless they feel very strong or very safe.

I'm with you on this, Jennifer. I don't tend to avoid talking about my feelings even if they are horribly painful. My reason for this is usually because it makes me more accessible to other people, by my logic, because I am more willing to be vulnerable. I think a willingness to be honest, objective, and appropriately vulnerable is a good thing. Though, I admit to my fear of coming across badly to others. Not only do I admit that fear, but I try to allow myself to really feel it in the moment instead of trying to suppress it to enhance my performace in any given social situation; this usually backfires.

When I suppress/ignore/run away from a feeling, I become... well, for one thing, I have already begun the process of ignoring reality, which I think starts a domino effect that leads at some point to ignoring other aspects of reality beyond the reality of one's emotions. Because, as I said, I think emotions are often what prompt us to examine reality. Also, in a sense, allowing myself to really feel my feelings in the moment allows me to know who I am. It allows me to express ME. I am not quite sure what allows me to overcome my fear in social situations; it seems that by actually feeling, and not by simply acknowledging my emotions (for the difference between feeling and acknowledging my emotions is profound), I am able to somehow, by this one act, overcome fear. I'll have to think more on how this process happens.

Furthermore, as others have mentioned (particularly Ts here), if I am feeling negatively especially, I am encouraged to examine why I am feeling negatively, which leads me to examine why I think something is harmful to me, which leads me to examine my perceptions, which leads me to discard inaccurate perceptions, leaving me with only reality (uh, in theory, not necessarily in practice :D).
 

heart

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In effect, I try to change my inner world (i.e., my level of happiness) by changing my perception of the outer world, which is not always bad, but when it is done at the cost of the facts it cannot be good.

It is not bad when one seeks to understand why a particular emotion came into being. For instance, just today I noticed that I was annoyed whenever I saw a college girl walking on campus in 50-degree weather in really short shorts. I then began to analyze why I was annoyed with this, and if my annoyance was logically valid or not. [Edit: I think this analytical process ties into what Edahn was saying about how emotions guide the analytical process. This is exactly what I think and I'll explain why, but we might be thinking this for different reasons, Edahn.]

Just my opinion but that sounds more like shadow Te being critical than a Fi based feeling. It's stupid to wear shorts when it's cold out, Te is making note of it and charging them gals with infractions! These are shadow thoughts not Feeling. jmo.


I have long sought a worldview that allowed me to be both objective about the world while not having to feel much pain, but I don't think this (necessarily) is possible. Certainly, it is not possible to ignore/avoid one's feelings and still accurately see reality. In this sense, processing our emotions adequately is an essential tool for processing reality accurately.

At about 33 years old all my old belief structures came violently tumbling down and I had to start over with a very different set of beliefs about the world around me and it isn't comforting or pretty. I long for the old more inner assured views but they apparently aren't coming back. *sigh*

I mean, yes, there is a lot of happiness to be had in healthy, objective and truthful ways. I am not saying one has to resign oneself to unhappiness in order to see reality accurately. In fact, I think it is only by using our reasoning, and by using our emotions to guide our reasoning, that we can accurately know reality, and I think that to the degree that we accurately know reality, we will be happy. I think our emotions play an important role, extremely important, in the objective acceptance of reality. And a lot of these emotions are painful, but they still cannot be avoided or overlooked out of fear.

It's the thoughts that are being avoided in my opinion, the feelings are merely avoided because the thoughts that cause them are avoided.


It is clear to me that Ts do not seem to find emotions as threatening or as frightening as Fs,

:D


for if they did they would be predisposed to do the same thing which Fs do, which is avoid pain by avoiding facts.

:yes: But what do Feelers do who want to avoid pain? They avoid their thoughts. They also personalize thoughts to fit into their own values.

Now what do you suppose Thinkers do with their feelings/emotions when Feeling disrupts their need for logic, clarity and fairness? And is it any less unhealthy than what Feelers do? It is any more effective? :cheese:
 
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violaine

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I'm with you on this, Jennifer. I don't tend to avoid talking about my feelings even if they are horribly painful. My reason for this is usually because it makes me more accessible to other people, by my logic, because I am more willing to be vulnerable. I think a willingness to be honest, objective, and appropriately vulnerable is a good thing. Though, I admit to my fear of coming across badly to others. Not only do I admit that fear, but I try to allow myself to really feel it in the moment instead of trying to suppress it to enhance my performace in any given social situation; this usually backfires.

Yeah, I wonder sometimes if it's an INFJ thing (or not!)... I've read somewhere (?) that INFJs may forget to show vulnerability. I don't worry about coming across badly to others at all. And I don't pretend that things are ok when they're not. It's just rare that I want to share something on that level with someone else, unless it's perhaps my best friend or my boyfriend who know me very well and will take it in the right way. i.e. not freak out about the depth of my feeling and not end up crying and me having to comfort them... (that's been my experience in the past.) I don't want to share that deepest part of myself with anyone but a boyfriend oftentimes and sometimes I just want to keep it for myself. (I'm quite self-deprecating in terms of my sense of humor so I think that's prob how I show vulnerability with others.)
 

Mempy

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:yes: But what do Feelers do who want to avoid pain? They avoid their thoughts. They also personalize thoughts to fit into their own values.

Why would a person think that simply acknowledging a thought or an aspect of reality would cause harm to them? And I'm not asking why they would think an aspect of reality would cause them harm. I'm asking why they would think ACKNOWLEDGING this aspect of reality would cause them harm, and thus essentially asking why they avoid this thought.

I'll tell you why. Because they think that feeling their fear - which arises naturally in response to a perceived harmful aspect of reality, in response to a thought or statement about reality - is harmful to them. If a person is afraid of actually feeling their fear, I think they are going to avoid examining a thought, because the fear that this thought rightly and naturally causes them is unbearable to them; they believe it is harmful to them to even feel this fear, so they avoid feeling it by avoiding the thought. But if they did not feel that the process of feeling this fear - or this negative emotion, whatever it may be, whether selfishness, jealousy, sadness, laziness, anger, or anything else - would be harmful in an of itself, they'd have no reason whatsoever to avoid facing the thought.

When one has a thought about reality, if this thought acknowledges something harmful about reality, one is going to feel negatively; probably some type of fear.

Thus I think that it is not the thought they are essentially avoiding, though this is necessarily true - they ARE avoiding the thought - but only as a RESULT of avoiding the emotions this thought awakens in them.

In essence, they are afraid of facing their negative emotions, more than they are afraid of facing the thing actually causing their negative emotions.

If they did not believe that facing their fear of this thing would be harmful in and of itself, what reason would they have to avoid acknowledging the thought? Acknowledging the thought would no longer pose a threat to them, would it? What threat could it pose besides the one I have just explained?

This is why I think it is inaccurate to say that Fs are avoiding thoughts; yes, this is true, but WHY are they avoiding them? Because they cannot process/cope/bear the negative emotion they feel in response to this thought. It is the fear of feeling fear that stops them. It is an inability to feel their emotions which causes them to be unable to face reality.

Phew! I feel horrendously long-winded! But I tried really, really hard on this post, to make it right, and to make it understandable and logically sound. *deep breath* It was frustrating at times, but overall I'm happy with the result. Phew! *wipes sweat from brow* It was like writing a philosophy paper. :D
 

Nocapszy

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Hmm. I need some clarification and eleboration, particularly on the bolded. This process you're describing sounds familiar; it sounds like what Jennifer was describing, what Edahn was describing, and what Millerm was describing: the process of analyzing emotions. But I'm interested to understand what you meant by, "I was looking for an angle. Constantly trying to rework my plan to accomodate the situaton." And some explanation of "Next time I'll [blank] when [blank] to preemt [blank]."
Well I left them blank for a number of reasons.
One of them being that it is, after all, personal. Or private or something.
I'll PM you if you're really curious/think it will help for you to understand.

To clarify, I mean, I was looking for something to leverage. Trying to fix the problem. I guess I spent less time trying to figure out why it was a problem than what the problem was, and how to fix it.
I was invested enough for the Feeling to be uncompromising. Once I detected that my situation was equally uncompromising, I guess I just rationalize it as a lesson.
As if I'm determined not to let it 'beat me': maybe T(i) competitiveness can't allow me to lose, so it puts the F judgement on the bookshelf.
The mental image I get is more like T swallowing the F, digesting it, and waiting for the particles to become new cells in the T body.
 

heart

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To Mempy: The Feeler who wants to always feel happy/good will need to avoid or alter the thoughts that provoke the feeling. It is Feeling using Thinking to it's own ends to avoid pain, but it is thought that is not being allowed to have a say not feeling. It's our thinking function that will put a check on feeling becoming egomanical and self-serving. It's thinking that must be suppressed to keep continuous good/happy feelings going because it's thinking that provides the cold, hard truth to spoil the happy mood.

The thoughts then will go underground and come back as shadow T. Criticalness of self and others, paranoia about the intentions and strategies of others.

This is why I think it is inaccurate to say that Fs are avoiding thoughts; yes, this is true, but WHY are they avoiding them? Because they cannot process/cope/bear the negative emotion they feel in response to this thought. It is the fear of feeling fear that stops them. It is an inability to feel their emotions which causes them to be unable to face reality.

Of course they are avoiding the thoughts because they do not *wish* to feel negative feelings (I don't believe it is because they cannot feel them, it is because they don't wish to feel them and Feeling as function filters out what perception and thought bring to it in order to allow this to happen), but the fact remains that thought is being avoided, no matter the motivation. They've simply trained themselves to avoid the thoughts and perceptions that bring the bad emotions because they desire to feel good all the time.

If a person truly cannot tolerate/handle negative feelings at all, it is probably something beyond type and needs professional help to overcome. A true neurosis.
 

Mempy

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heart said:
The Feeler who wants to always feel happy/good will need to avoid or alter the thoughts that provoke the feeling. It is Feeling using Thinking to it's own ends to avoid pain, but it is thought that is not being allowed to have a say not feeling.

I think it's both. As you said, they are avoiding a feeling by altering their thought, which is what I was saying when I said that they are avoiding a feeling by avoiding/ignoring a thought. It starts with not wanting the feeling, not with not wanting the thought. One doesn't want the thought because one doesn't want the feeling, and not the reverse, which says that one doesn't want the feeling because one doesn't want the thought.

Wait a second. :doh: Maybe we're both right somehow. I'm all confused now. And I have to give up for now.

And I'll leave it at that for now, I think. I've spent far too much time in this thread! :D I feel strange that I have done so. Hmm. Time for a break!
 

Firelie

Magical
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
836
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
I wouldn't necessarily call avoiding feelings also being ignorant about facts, unless your facts are so wrapped up in feelings that you cannot unravel the two. It's kinda hard to answer that question without a specific instance to go by...I usually take what I need and shove the feelings into the back of my head until I'm ready to give them attention.

What do you think is meant when a person says, "Ts have trouble processing their emotions"? Do you think it means they have trouble acknowledging them, feeling them, or being aware of them at any level of consciousness?

Personally, I'm usually unaware of the feeling until after it's passed and I've had time to process the situation and realize "Hey, that made me feel bad" (or whatever).
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
I'm a T and automatically depersonalize.

I rarely feel emotions. I simply become aware that I am having them (and sometimes not even that).

It's not that I believe emotions are bad or unecessary. In fact, I believe emotions to be the only thing that motivates human beings.

Even things like curiosity (wanting to know), and empericism (wanting to test theories), have at base some emotions that motivate the activity.

I am not sure why I depersonalize. I have tried hard at times to personalize, and actually feel my feelings. But it is hard, because when I focus on my emotions, they get depersonalized. But it seems like the only other option I have is to let them control me subconsciously. This is usually detrimental.

Often, the only feelings I actually feel are the incredibly intense ones. Unfortunately, these have also tended to be unpleasant.
 
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