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[MBTI General] What if we've been looking at 'man' and 'woman' wrong?

Ceresc

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(Upfront apology for any offenses and my lack of in depth knowledge)

As I was reading through some of the cognitive functions and numerous information in regards to temperaments, MBTI, etc. while being quite berated by doubting Debbie over my "obsession", (that's my mother btw.) I threw out a random argument that maybe God was referring to man and woman according to our cognitive functions and NOT biological. Of course, I was immediately shot down with "but procreation" and fired back with "population control". At the time I was just I was arguing just to annoy her, (it's a love/hate relationship), but I am curious if anyone else has thought of this and what their thoughts are.
 

Hermit of the Forest

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God wouldn’t be much of a god if he didn’t have a higher perspective then typology.
 

Coriolis

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Physical male and female are essential for sexual reproduction, which is superior to asexual reproduction from an evolutionary standpoint. The qualities often associated with masculine and feminine, however, seem to be related more to T/F differences than to anything physiological. In that sense I agree with the OP. This observation has been made by others as well.
 

Ceresc

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This is why I shouldn't post before coffee. I should have clarified or rather, given context. We were discussing marriage.

And HermitoftheForest, I disagree. if one believes in God, then God is in fact the source code for typology. He did after all create according to His plan. This includes our biology and how our brains work. Would it not then mean that typology is His design? Perhaps he's wondering how it took us so many years to start paying attention to our brains. And If you give any credit to Dr. Nardi and his work with EEG in relation to typology, our biology mimics our typology (or vice versa). Which would again then point back to the fact that typology is His design.

And thank you!
 

Smilephantomhive

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Gender is a typology just like mbti.
 

Luminous

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This is why I shouldn't post before coffee. I should have clarified or rather, given context. We were discussing marriage.

I still feel a bit lost as to what you are talking about... could you elaborate more?
 

Hermit of the Forest

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This is why I shouldn't post before coffee. I should have clarified or rather, given context. We were discussing marriage.

And HermitoftheForest, I disagree. if one believes in God, then God is in fact the source code for typology. He did after all create according to His plan. This includes our biology and how our brains work. Would it not then mean that typology is His design? Perhaps he's wondering how it took us so many years to start paying attention to our brains. And If you give any credit to Dr. Nardi and his work with EEG in relation to typology, our biology mimics our typology (or vice versa). Which would again then point back to the fact that typology is His design.

And thank you!

I agree God is our source code, and created us all according to his design. However, typology is a theory to explain observable reality and not a flawless one at that. I don’t think God is sitting up in heaven consulting the functions. I think his ideas are much higher, complex and beautiful than any of ours
 

Lark

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(Upfront apology for any offenses and my lack of in depth knowledge)

As I was reading through some of the cognitive functions and numerous information in regards to temperaments, MBTI, etc. while being quite berated by doubting Debbie over my "obsession", (that's my mother btw.) I threw out a random argument that maybe God was referring to man and woman according to our cognitive functions and NOT biological. Of course, I was immediately shot down with "but procreation" and fired back with "population control". At the time I was just I was arguing just to annoy her, (it's a love/hate relationship), but I am curious if anyone else has thought of this and what their thoughts are.

To be honest, I think there's both the biology and the cognitive differences, now, that gets called "binary thinking" and condemned every which way but I dont mind that, I dont mind engaging in binary thinking at all, I do think that "biology is destiny" and there's nothing wrong with that at all. It means I'm liable to be labelled a chauvinist, hater, all sorts of things by different LGBT thought police but I dont care. Other people are going to have other opinions and they might even make public policy because they are fashionable and popular, that's fine, they can do that, that's OK, I'll just breath after my own fashion and think what I like about it. Freedom ought to be freedom for those that disagree.

I've read a lot of really great feminist material, some of it by what ever considered radical feminism at a time before that became synonymous with things such as "political lesbianism", which celebrated difference and the uniquely feminine as opposed to grey uniformity or androgyny. I always liked that, what was glorified in the feminine or as the feminine, such as an ethic of care, never seemed bad or injurious or harmful at all.

Its reflected in fiction in books like Sheri S Tepper's Gate To Woman's Country, which I really liked as a novel and for its communication of particular values. The idea of a mad max future which is secretly governed by a socialist feminist executive seems so clever but I know the fact that homosexual has disappeared altogether as a consequence of the new order sits badly with a lot of present day liberals.

Anyway, interesting topic, I guess, on the one hand, on the other its the sort of discussion I dont remember ever having with my own parents, among my own peers, even yet or while I was a student. That is interesting to me, how ideas ebb and flow and what becomes a talking point at one time or another. Even opposing some ideas ensures their currency, that I remember being something discussed in the nineties or shortly there after in respect of racism/anti-racism. Some opposition movements need their particular bogeys and some bogeys need their opposition movements too, as crazy as that may seem.
 

rav3n

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Gender binary beliefs suffer the same problem as cognitive functions and MBTI, that of self-selection.
 

Lark

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Physical male and female are essential for sexual reproduction, which is superior to asexual reproduction from an evolutionary standpoint. The qualities often associated with masculine and feminine, however, seem to be related more to T/F differences than to anything physiological. In that sense I agree with the OP. This observation has been made by others as well.

I dont know, I think there is such a thing as innateness, Chomsky has explored it in terms of an innate linguistic or language skill and I know of at least one author who has argued that there is a similar universal "ethical grammer" which is innate too, I have read feminists who have suggested similar innate male and female traits and that men and women can be male or female identified.

So you have the idea that it does not matter that women like Margaret Thatcher or Theresa May are in the office of PM per se as they are obviously male identified.

I know that could be a sort of contrivance and it could be argued, and has been, that this is an instance of "crabs in a barrel" style demonisation of success and the sorts of PC prohbitions that reinforce traditional patterns, achieving the same results for different reasons or by different paths. Its interesting as a talking point though.

Even if it could be argued that sexual differences are only worthy from the stand point of evolutionary or reproductive purposes I'd still not be persuaded that androgyny had anything at all to recommend it. Not for a moment. I'm a man and think it makes my life great and in many, many ways easier than if I had been a woman, although this world would be nothing without women. There is actually a sci fi novel about that, I think its called The Disappearance, in which some cosmic force separates the sexes into two different worlds. It is unintentionally retro-fiction too because it was written at a time when things were hella more gendered, like housewives and homekeepers being exclusively female, everyone is married beyond a certain age, no one is single etc. but still a great read.

The sci fi genre has been such a great place for exploratory and speculative fiction of that kind.
 

Coriolis

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I dont know, I think there is such a thing as innateness, Chomsky has explored it in terms of an innate linguistic or language skill and I know of at least one author who has argued that there is a similar universal "ethical grammer" which is innate too, I have read feminists who have suggested similar innate male and female traits and that men and women can be male or female identified.

So you have the idea that it does not matter that women like Margaret Thatcher or Theresa May are in the office of PM per se as they are obviously male identified.

I know that could be a sort of contrivance and it could be argued, and has been, that this is an instance of "crabs in a barrel" style demonisation of success and the sorts of PC prohbitions that reinforce traditional patterns, achieving the same results for different reasons or by different paths. Its interesting as a talking point though.

Even if it could be argued that sexual differences are only worthy from the stand point of evolutionary or reproductive purposes I'd still not be persuaded that androgyny had anything at all to recommend it. Not for a moment. I'm a man and think it makes my life great and in many, many ways easier than if I had been a woman, although this world would be nothing without women. There is actually a sci fi novel about that, I think its called The Disappearance, in which some cosmic force separates the sexes into two different worlds. It is unintentionally retro-fiction too because it was written at a time when things were hella more gendered, like housewives and homekeepers being exclusively female, everyone is married beyond a certain age, no one is single etc. but still a great read.

The sci fi genre has been such a great place for exploratory and speculative fiction of thIat kind.
Have you read Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin? That is an interesting exploration of gender through a science fiction setting.

I don't disagree with innateness. In fact, I think many of our individual traits are innate, but that most are more important than gender. If life is easier for men, and in many places it is, the difference comes not from physiology but rather the different treatment and opportunities accorded to the two sexes. Remove these constraints, and being a woman is no more difficult than being a man. I have never lived as a man, but I cannot trace any of the difficulties in my life to the simple fact of my sex.

I would not say that women like Thatcher, or May are male identified. I would say positions like prime minister are male-identified, and incorrectly so. Women like these are not behaving "like men", they are just showing how artificial gender roles are, and how the individual traits that led them to their political positions are in fact human traits, not male or female.
 

Non_xsense

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so much shit about people wanting to create how people should behave , fucking let others people live their lives how they want.
You are just a limitation if you want to create a reality.
 

Lark

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Have you read Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin? That is an interesting exploration of gender through a science fiction setting.

I have read about it, I have yet to actually read it. Was it the sci fi in which the people are androgynous and do not become a particular sex until they are mature and do not know which they may turn out to be? Hence create a society which is not patriarchal or sexist? There was another, similar, story I heard about in which the people morphed between on sex and another at will and another in which they morphed but again it wasnt something they could control.

I like to read sci fi which could be considered social sci fi, there's a book about universal basic income and other things published by Jacobin, I got a lot of good recommendations from it.

I don't disagree with innateness. In fact, I think many of our individual traits are innate, but that most are more important than gender. If life is easier for men, and in many places it is, the difference comes not from physiology but rather the different treatment and opportunities accorded to the two sexes. Remove these constraints, and being a woman is no more difficult than being a man. I have never lived as a man, but I cannot trace any of the difficulties in my life to the simple fact of my sex.

I've heard similar things said about disability as difference, ie if everyone had to use wheelchairs there would be no such thing as stairs, I still dont ever want to be an amputee if I can avoid it. I'd love to say that all that makes life easier or more difficult are social constructs but I think its biology too. I acknowledge my own biases though.

I would not say that women like Thatcher, or May are male identified. I would say positions like prime minister are male-identified, and incorrectly so. Women like these are not behaving "like men", they are just showing how artificial gender roles are, and how the individual traits that led them to their political positions are in fact human traits, not male or female.

That would be the liberal feminist position, sure, the radical (including anarcha-feminist) positions would suggest that there shouldnt be those structures in the first place, they are male creations etc.
 

anticlimatic

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I encourage toying with conventional definitions of terms when it fits a different but obvious context, so long as you come up with enough logic to justify it.
 

Sineva

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so much shit about people wanting to create how people should behave , fucking let others people live their lives how they want.
You are just a limitation if you want to create a reality.

A limitation for others, but not for yourself. If people don't create things and don't leave anything behind as proof of their existence, then who's to say they existed at all?
Every creation, be it a story, a painting, a philosophy, or a system of rules, a society - is a structure of some sort, a structure is a form - and every form has boundaries (limitations), otherwise it wouldn't be a form.

The most famous people in history are those who created forms of great magnitude, be they philosophers, conquerors, inventors, or et al.
Everyone else was and will remain background noise.
 

Non_xsense

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A limitation for others, but not for yourself. If people don't create things and don't leave anything behind as proof of their existence, then who's to say they existed at all?
Every creation, be it a story, a painting, a philosophy, or a system of rules, a society - is a structure of some sort, a structure is a form - and every form has boundaries (limitations), otherwise it wouldn't be a form.

The most famous people in history are those who created forms of great magnitude, be they philosophers, conquerors, inventors, or et al.
Everyone else was and will remain background noise.


Do you know what "context" is? , There is a clearly difference bewteen what i meant and what you are saying.
And you can break a form and make structures alot less lineal like ligeti did YouTube.
 

anime_nature

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[MENTION=37703]Sineva[/MENTION] Don't worry about him... I'd rather that comment fade into obscurity than to fuel a debate of an unrelated topic. So next time you see a hypocritical or insensitive comment spewing curse words, then it's recommended to not reply to them.

Also, if you're [MENTION=36808]Non_xsense[/MENTION] reading this, I have no idea why you posted a comment like that, seeing your previous comments are more intellectual instead of this thing that is comparable to a 12-year-old kid trolling, but if you want to argue with these peeps so badly, then I suggest moving this to somewhere else before it not only gets off-topic, but also out of hand.
 

Coriolis

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I have read about it, I have yet to actually read it. Was it the sci fi in which the people are androgynous and do not become a particular sex until they are mature and do not know which they may turn out to be? Hence create a society which is not patriarchal or sexist? There was another, similar, story I heard about in which the people morphed between on sex and another at will and another in which they morphed but again it wasnt something they could control.
Left Hand of Darkness involves a society in which people are androgynous. They pair up for life, and take on complementary sexes when it is time to reproduce. Who is who is random and not constant, so the mother of one child might be the father of another.

I've heard similar things said about disability as difference, ie if everyone had to use wheelchairs there would be no such thing as stairs, I still dont ever want to be an amputee if I can avoid it. I'd love to say that all that makes life easier or more difficult are social constructs but I think its biology too. I acknowledge my own biases though.
I do hope here you are not equating either sex with having a disability. It is more like handedness, awkward mostly in a society set up for the opposite hand preference.

That would be the liberal feminist position, sure, the radical (including anarcha-feminist) positions would suggest that there shouldnt be those structures in the first place, they are male creations etc.
Well, barring anarchy, there needs to be some sort of government or leadership. There is no biological basis for associating those roles with men. There may be some small basis for linking style of leadership with sex but even that is tenuous at best given the spectrum of individual differences among each sex, and the strong influence of other factors.
 

Cellmold

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I think suffering and pain should be a points based system and the more you accrue, the more help and benefits should be provided by others and broader society.

Subjectivism might be a teeny...tiny...insignificant spanner in that work of course, but I think we could probably work something out.
 
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