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Disorders affecting type

fetus

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How could certain disorders (personality disorders, for example) affect one's typing? I imagine it would make it more difficult. Curious to know more about the interaction, because I don't see it being discussed much.
 

Qlip

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When I started being interested in typology, I tested (online tests) as INTP and also passed as one. At the time I was depressed, diagnosed with dysthymia. As I came out of that, it became apparent to me that my typing was inaccurate. It's a mild example as an example of a mental disorder, but it had pretty significant impact, probably because it was something I had lived with for over a decade at the time.
 

rav3n

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Reliant on what type of mental health issue, IMO, it's very likely to impact on typing. Consider schizophrenia. It blunts empathy. Mental health issues with the symptom of delusion would also impact. For that matter, meds to treat mental health issues would have impact. Pretty sure that SSRIs increase extraversion.
 

Frosty

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Disorders impact levels of health I think which can make mbti harder to type I think.

Surprisingly, to me, it doesnt have a huge effect on beig able to type enneagram. It actualy helps to consider these things so ‘why’ can be understand and perhaps... a more thorough and accurate typing can be developed
 

Luminous

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Pretty sure that SSRIs increase extraversion.

Yes, but it's the healthy (or at least healthier) state of said person. Both depression and anxiety, especially social anxiety, are going to make a person seem and act more introverted. So the treatment is going to allow the person to be more fully him/herself, I think.
 

rav3n

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Yes, but it's the healthy (or at least healthier) state of said person. Both depression and anxiety, especially social anxiety, are going to make a person seem and act more introverted. So the treatment is going to allow the person to be more fully him/herself, I think.
Apparently, it not only treats their state, it increases sociability.

E - Found it.

Antidepressants don’t just treat depression–they can make us more sociable, too — Quartz

[FONT=&quot]For instance, in 1999, Swedish researchers observed the impact of SSRIs on depressed patients treated in a general practice setting. Most improved—but the more interesting findings concerned personality traits.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The study tracked measures of socialization and social desirability and assessed patients’ levels of aggression, attachment, suspicion, and obsessiveness—25 traits in all. The authors observed: “After treatment, significant changes in the direction of normalization were seen in all scales.” The patients’ gains in sociability appeared to be independent of changes in their moods. The researchers believed that they were seeing a medication-induced shift in temperament.[/FONT]
 

Luminous

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Apparently, it not only treats their state, it increases sociability.

E - Found it.

Antidepressants don’t just treat depression–they can make us more sociable, too — Quartz

The problem I have is the very limited view of what depression is and what it does to a person. Yes, it's a mood disorder. But it creates a vicious circle where the person often, not being fun to be around, ends up not being around others very much, which makes the person feel more and more isolated, which can lead to more isolation and more depression. It's not having the energy to go out and do things. It's not being able to enjoy things one once did enjoy and likely shared with others. It makes one more introverted and focused on self and what's wrong with self and the very pain in being one's self. In terms of the article, I have trouble separating neuroticism and depression entirely. At some point it becomes a which came first? The chicken or the egg. And on a practical level I'm not sure it matters.

If you follow the link to one of the studies, it says "Results from longitudinal studies have consistently shown that neuroticism predicts both the onset and the chronicity of major depressive disorder (MDD)" and "Neuroticism, therefore, appears to reflect much of the genetic vulnerability to MDD". So it concludes neuroticism comes first.

Is it the healthy & happier version of ourselves that is our real self or the unhealthy & more neurotic version? I know which one I'd rather have and be. Who defines what is authentically us? What makes it authentic? Genes? Inner peace?
 

rav3n

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The problem I have is the very limited view of what depression is and what it does to a person. Yes, it's a mood disorder. But it creates a vicious circle where the person often, not being fun to be around, ends up not being around others very much, which makes the person feel more and more isolated, which can lead to more isolation and more depression. It's not having the energy to go out and do things. It's not being able to enjoy things one once did enjoy and likely shared with others. It makes one more introverted and focused on self and what's wrong with self and the very pain in being one's self. In terms of the article, I have trouble separating neuroticism and depression entirely. At some point it becomes a which came first? The chicken or the egg. And on a practical level I'm not sure it matters.

If you follow the link to one of the studies, it says "Results from longitudinal studies have consistently shown that neuroticism predicts both the onset and the chronicity of major depressive disorder (MDD)" and "Neuroticism, therefore, appears to reflect much of the genetic vulnerability to MDD". So it concludes neuroticism comes first.

Is it the healthy & happier version of ourselves that is our real self or the unhealthy & more neurotic version? I know which one I'd rather have and be. Who defines what is authentically us? What makes it authentic? Genes? Inner peace?
While I hear you, consider introversion and extraversion and how the brain routes dopamine. With extraverts, it takes a shorter route. With introverts, it takes a longer route. Bear in mind that not all introverts suffer from depression or neuroticism. With this in mind, consider how SSRIs also impact on dopamine flow.

SSRI antidepressants involve dopamine as well as serotonin signaling | EurekAlert! Science News

Now, however, Fu-Ming Zhou (presently at the University of Tennessee) and colleagues at Baylor College of Medicine have revealed that SSRIs can have more complex effects on neurotransmitter traffic in the brain than just altering serotonin levels. They found that higher serotonin concentrations caused by SSRIs can "trick" transporters of another key neurotransmitter, dopamine, into retrieving serotonin into dopamine vesicles. Dopamine transporters have a low affinity for serotonin, but the higher serotonin levels result in its uptake by the dopamine transporters, found the scientists.

As a result, the normal dopamine-triggered firing from such neurons, in essence, launches two different types of neuronal ammunition, causing "cosignaling."

The researchers were led to study the role of dopamine signaling in SSRI action by previous evidence that dopamine was involved in depression and in the function of antidepressants in the brain. They studied the nature and machinery of serotonin and dopamine signaling by treating mouse brain slices with fluoxetine (Prozac) and other chemicals, and analyzing the effects on the dopamine-signaling machinery.
 

Snow as White

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How could certain disorders (personality disorders, for example) affect one's typing? I imagine it would make it more difficult. Curious to know more about the interaction, because I don't see it being discussed much.

i think it would definitely have an impact, the range of it depending on which disorder and what steps may be being taken to counteract it (meds, procedures, and especially coping mechanisms).

similar to what [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] says, i thought i was an introvert since that's what i always tested as for the official tests. i was also very depressed when i took these tests and sort of always thought i was this introverted loner type since my depression encouraged my isolation from everyone. once i got through my depressive episode i realized what i had assumed about myself wasn't true. it doesn't help that even when i am not depressed i am not a very high energy extravert type.
 

Amberiat

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Personality disorders often affect empathy, especially NPD and ASPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality disorder aka sociopaths/psychopaths) therefore making it near impossible if not impossible to accurately type someone.

Depression messes with empathy as well although not as badly as the disorders listed above and there is medication to consider too.

Personality disorders can loosely resemble certain stereotypes for example look at the ENTP/ESTP sociopath stereotype or the ENTJ/INTJ narcissist stereotype which are thrown around all the time when these types are being discussed. Of course they aren't accurate, and trying to type people with certain disorders isn't going to be accurate either.
 

Luminous

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I wonder if OCD and anorexia would make a person more likely to type as a J, since they are largely about control.
 

rav3n

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Personality disorders often affect empathy, especially NPD and ASPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality disorder aka sociopaths/psychopaths) therefore making it near impossible if not impossible to accurately type someone.

Depression messes with empathy as well although not as badly as the disorders listed above and there is medication to consider too.

Personality disorders can loosely resemble certain stereotypes for example look at the ENTP/ESTP sociopath stereotype or the ENTJ/INTJ narcissist stereotype which are thrown around all the time when these types are being discussed. Of course they aren't accurate, and trying to type people with certain disorders isn't going to be accurate either.
Interestingly enough, ASPD has been significantly correlated with the NTP profile while NPD has no significant correlation to any type.

https://www.uccs.edu/Documents/dseg...igation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf
 

Amberiat

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Interestingly enough, ASPD has been significantly correlated with the NTP profile while NPD has no significant correlation to any type.

https://www.uccs.edu/Documents/dseg...igation-Jungs-types-and-PD-features-JPT-2.pdf

That's pretty interesting! I definitely think ENTP is the best correlation at least for the smarter/more calculated individuals who suffer from ASPD but ESTP/ISTP seems to fit the average ASPD profile much more accurately, young criminals who get caught fairly easily, unpredictable, extremely impulsive etc.
 

rav3n

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That's pretty interesting! I definitely think ENTP is the best correlation at least for the smarter/more calculated individuals who suffer from ASPD but ESTP/ISTP seems to fit the average ASPD profile much more accurately, young criminals who get caught fairly easily, unpredictable, extremely impulsive etc.
There's no significant correlation with STPs and ASPD.
 

Amberiat

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There's no significant correlation with STPs and ASPD.

Your average STP acts very similarly and has many shared traits with your average psychopath, it's blatantly obvious if you observe enough STPs in real life. Even the usual STP profiles sound pretty much like they're describing someone who suffers from ASPD.

If real, observed behavior isn't significant then what is?
 

Smilephantomhive

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Mental illness only makes it impossible to type if it's based off stereotypes.
 

rav3n

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Your average STP acts very similarly and has many shared traits with your average psychopath, it's blatantly obvious if you observe enough STPs in real life. Even the usual STP profiles sound pretty much like they're describing someone who suffers from ASPD.

If real, observed behavior isn't significant then what is?
Personality disorders are groupings of specific traits where magnitude defines pathology or not. The traits for most personality disorders are normal human behaviours.

ESTPs and ENTPs are different. Otherwise, they'd be one type.
 

Yuurei

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I don't know if this is really relevant but sometimes I think that the opposite also happens. For ex; everyone I was raised by is a strong S. Everything had to be planned ahead ( to a "T") everything had to be done "The right ( traditional) way.
I am VERY "N" my greatest skill is adaptation, thinking on my feet. My family considered this a mental disorder I recall my Grandfather once screaming ' NON WORKS THAT WAY!" They made me see all kinds of therapists and special ed counselors and had me tested for just about everything.

This leads me to believe that many disorders are really just an extreme opposite of common perspectives ( not all of course)

Of course there is also projection. If someone constantly tells you something you will either begin to believe it or will fight it to the point of obsession which can lead to it's own litany of mental problems.

Personality disorders are groupings of specific traits where magnitude defines pathology or not. The traits for most personality disorders are normal human behaviours.

ESTPs and ENTPs are different. Otherwise, they'd be one type.

ESTP's exasperate me. ENTP's I tend to get along very well with.
 

Peter Deadpan

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I didn't realize (accept) until recently that I've been depressed for years. I've also struggled on and off with social anxiety for years, randomly becoming a social cripple at the most inopportune times.

I thought I was INFx for several years, but I think it's probably not that simple in my case. Just because you introvert often doesn't mean you are an introvert. I was essentially creatively and socially stunted for years without being fully aware of it.

Ultimately, I have shit Si, to the point where it's laughable. When I get really depressed, I completely withdraw into Si and it's nothing but hopelessness and an almost palpable sense of dying on a soul level.

Also, people of my tritype are EXTREMELY prone to mental illness or even borderline personality disorder as 4 and 5 are emotionally polar opposites and 8 throws in a tendency to lash out or be rebellious/stubborn. To put it simply, it's a very contradictory combination. Our "kind" is also painfully aware of the depths of darkness present inside all of us and we can see it in others easily, sometimes too easily.
 

lunalum

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I think type is hard enough to discover without mental disorders. Those just add a whole other layer (or a thousand layers) of confusing. Some I'd imagine would distort type entirely, such as DID. I don't think I'll ever know what my "real type" is because my depression dates back to probably childhood. But at the same time, I also think that disorders can make typing even easier if you know what to look for. For example, someone who is clearly having a bad time may look like an unhealthy version of their inferior function much more so than what you would typically think of for their dominant type.
 
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