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Is this Ti-Fe or Te-Fi?

Ely

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Oct 2, 2015
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I recently had a discussion with some friends about minimum wages, and it got me thinking about how we make judgments. Let's keep discussions about ideology out of this, please.
Friend 1 said that if having a livable wage would fuck up the economy because that's just how capitalism works, we need to realize that capitalism is the problem. I commented that there is a trade-off between a higher min wage and an increase in unemployment and possibly also inflation, and I don't think there is a perfect solution.
Friend 2 mentioned how some studies have found that increasing the minimum wage didn't increase unemployment significantly. I countered that there are certain situations in which this could happen; if the minimum wages are initially very low they might be way below what e.g. the average fast food worker contributes to the company, so even after increasing the minimum wages it's still a net gain for companies to hire them. Another possibility is that there are confounding factors which hide an existing effect. Friend 2's response to this was that the economy is a complex system and we can't be sure what the effect of a policy change was.
I generally maintain that I'll change my mind about pretty much anything, if I encounter proof of why I'm wrong... but tbh I just can't believe that there is no tradeoff between minimum wages and unemployment, as a rule. I just can't see how increasing minimum wages indefinitely wouldn't eventually lead to an increase in unemployment. (On an ethical level, I'd prefer that everyone had a good standard of living and I'm not opposed to having social security for unemployed people. If anything, I'd prefer to believe that there is no tradeoff, but I can't make sense of how it could be possible...)
Is my reasoning an example of 'subjective' logic of Ti-users, or something else?
 

rav3n

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Aug 6, 2010
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Not sure what that is, since none of you have explained any of your points in any logical manner, only stating what you believe. So, they're values and/or beliefs driven statements which might be Fi or Si.
 

Bush

cute lil war dog
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I see it as having logical backing but not (directly) an empirical one; 'If there are compounding factors, then I see where --', and 'Sure, a study might indicate that x -> y on its face, but rather than being taken at face value, its results could be explained by x & z -> y--' and so on.

To contrast, I think Friend 2 leans in the other direction: 'the system is complex, and there aren't any studies out there to point to, and so we can't know what would happen.'
 

Dreamer

Potential is My Addiction
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At least, with the way you worded your post and explained the situation, along with your thoughts on the issue, it sounds fairly strong in the Te camp to me, but the assessment is only from seeing this one post of yours too. I partially say this though because throwing pure Ti at me is probably the easiest way to make me shortcircuit, I just don’t understand it many times. And, coming from my perspective, Fi-Te, I see and understand the logic of a situation, but my thoughts tend to focus on the individuals involved and the “emotional” logic at play within clearly defined structures/systems in place. So, at least initially, you seem to be approaching it from the opposite end, Te-Fi.
 

Jaguar

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20,647
At least, with the way you worded your post and explained the situation, along with your thoughts on the issue, it sounds fairly strong in the Te camp to me, but the assessment is only from seeing this one post of yours too. I partially say this though because throwing pure Ti at me is probably the easiest way to make me shortcircuit, I just don’t understand it many times. And, coming from my perspective, Fi-Te, I see and understand the logic of a situation, but my thoughts tend to focus on the individuals involved and the “emotional” logic at play within clearly defined structures/systems in place. So, at least initially, you seem to be approaching it from the opposite end, Te-Fi.

That mess was Te? I don't think so.
 

ugghh

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ENTP
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sp/sx
Idk, person #1 probably used a feeling function writing that but that doesn't make them a feeling type. Person #2... appeal to authority gives me Te vibes, but not enough info to say. OP, I could see your pov being the result of either Ti or Ni+Te.
 

Dreamer

Potential is My Addiction
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I am actually curious though, if you care to share of your thoughts on Te. As it's lower on my stack, I can only guess what it may look like, once the "Feeler" speak is removed from the equation. For that matter, how might the rationalization processes outwardly look if comparing Fi-Te to Te-Fi, if it's even possible?
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], would you happen to have any thoughts on any differences in patterns of text or thoughts expressed between the two function orders?
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION], would you happen to have any thoughts on any differences in patterns of text or thoughts expressed between the two function orders?
I have copied the OP example below, and annotated it based on what J functions I see at work. This sorting is very top-level. Feel free to ask if you want further clarification.

Friend 1 said that if having a livable wage would fuck up the economy because that's just how capitalism works, we need to realize that capitalism is the problem.
Fi supported by Te: Friend 1 is assigning relative values to the existence of a capitalist economy vs. a living wage, using a hypothetical cause-effect relationship as a threshold or criterion, implication being if a living wage doesn't mess up the economy (something that could be observed, hence Te), then capitalism would be OK (Fi value judgment).

I commented that there is a trade-off between a higher min wage and an increase in unemployment and possibly also inflation, and I don't think there is a perfect solution.
Seems more Ti: looking at the economic theory of how wages, unemployment, and inflation interrelate; and observing almost in a tautological sense that there is no perfect solution. Te is by contrast usually quite content with the 90% solution that can actually be implemented and make thinges better, if not perfect. Now an attempt to document that tradeoff by making observations about functioning economies over time relative to various influences would be more Te.

Friend 2 mentioned how some studies have found that increasing the minimum wage didn't increase unemployment significantly.
Te: providing external data to support a position.

I countered that there are certain situations in which this could happen; if the minimum wages are initially very low they might be way below what e.g. the average fast food worker contributes to the company, so even after increasing the minimum wages it's still a net gain for companies to hire them. Another possibility is that there are confounding factors which hide an existing effect.
A mixture of Ti and Te in that it considers hypotheticals, but does tie them to effects observable in the real world. If I had to choose one, it would be Ti/Ne.

Friend 2's response to this was that the economy is a complex system and we can't be sure what the effect of a policy change was.
Again, more Ti in focusing on the need for an all-encompassing and perfect solution, and the reality of how elusive that generally is.

I generally maintain that I'll change my mind about pretty much anything, if I encounter proof of why I'm wrong... but tbh I just can't believe that there is no tradeoff between minimum wages and unemployment, as a rule. I just can't see how increasing minimum wages indefinitely wouldn't eventually lead to an increase in unemployment. (On an ethical level, I'd prefer that everyone had a good standard of living and I'm not opposed to having social security for unemployed people. If anything, I'd prefer to believe that there is no tradeoff, but I can't make sense of how it could be possible...)
On balance this seems a mostly Te/Fi approach, in that it seeks evidence from external reality to support a change of position, and articulates personal values.
 

k9a4b

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