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  1. #11
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    I can't decide between demonic Si, Ni, or Se. I think, at my absolute worst, I completely disregard my own boundaries as well as others', behaving destructively and then I wake up somewhere along the way with deep feelings of self hatred/shame over what I have done. I would cut myself, for example, and then logically deduct it that I can use that to show the world what they've done to me.. no one in specific.. just against humanity as a whole. Poetry in blood letting, so to speak. And I could remember something incorrectly, or just partial of it through my own interpretations, and even at the face of hard evidence proving me wrong, I'll vehemently defend my point of view.. Because certain things just cannot be seen through eyes alone. Maybe that could be demonic Ne, I don't know.

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    Beebe isn't one that I've read. Can you please explain how and why Beebe considers the Demonic Personality to be 'pathologically narcissistic'?

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    Si and Fe but Fe is defiantly more intensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    @Eric B

    Well, I can relate to three of them in a "demonic" sense, Fe, Te, and Se, although my actual 8th function is supposed to be Se.

    Fe “demon” object tells you no one appreciates you (for your logical ordering). You fight it through social narcissism, and try to take down others socially

    I can relate to feeling unappreciated, despite feeling like I have to try 10x as hard as a more "likable" person to live up to what I perceive as the performance standards, and even then, being considered the most expendable person. (I'm not sure what you mean by "for your logical ordering". Unappreciated for your logical ordering?)

    Te “demon” object tells you you are inefficient (particularly at serving others).

    I try very hard to be efficient and to be an excellent part of any team. This is similar to the Fe one, above, in that I feel like no matter how efficiently I work, and no matter how hard I try and how much I get done, it never seems to be enough to satisfy others. What really happens, though, is that they get pissed because of arbitrary reasons like "You didn't kiss my ass that day when I bent over and told you to," and despite my excellent performance, they say, "Your performance was half-assed. You failed to fulfill the requirements," even though that's not true; I exceeded the requirements. What this makes me feel like is that I'm inefficient, even though I'm not, and not at serving others--it makes me feel manipulated into a position in which "my place in life is to serve others," to go get them coffee and bullshit like that, when that's not my job. (I've had jobs that were straightforward coffee-pouring jobs, but that's not what I'm talking about.)

    You fight it by through organizational narcissism, and try to take down others' organization.

    Nah. I'm fighting it by training for a new career in a field that I hope attracts more down-to-earth types of people than my old field. So far, so good. I don't have a problem with organization (except for being somewhat prone to disorganization myself). I appreciate reliability. It's an admirable trait, and I work hard to be reliable. I'm not interested in sabotaging others' hard work and organization.

    Se “demon" object observes your ineptitude in the current situation?

    I feel less adept at physical situations, like finding a radial pulse on a medical actor. I can get the whole theory and routine down perfectly, but when it comes to taking vital signs, it's trickier. Finding the pulse, also deflating the blood pressure cuff at the right speed. I don't have trouble with driving, though; I drive like I know what I'm doing, and I do. So I'm sure that with practice, I will get better at specific physical actions, though I might not be a natural at first try.

    You fight it by narcissistically trying to prove your ability, often in a rash fashion

    LOL. I don't know; maybe? I'd have to ask people I work with if I come across this way. I would say that there's a chance.

    I don't think I "narcissistically" try to prove my ability. I do try very hard actually to be capable, though, because I'm afraid that, at heart, "inside", I'm really just a slob who can't get shit done.
    Oh, this is how it really gets demonic for me, and sometimes I think it's associated with Te, but maybe it's Se:

    I'm afraid that if I don't keep a schedule and list all the things that I need to do, I'll completely forget to do most of them, and the house will fall down, figuratively speaking to some extent--but not entirely figuratively speaking; I mean, I do actually need to re-caulk the bathtub pretty soon. I keep track of everything I need to get done, and I have a very thorough understanding of what needs to be done, and pretty much how, and when it needs to be done. But keeping track of everything that needs to be done doesn't even translate into getting it done when I think I should. My problem in this regard, I think, is that on some level, I believe that just knowing what needs to be done, and understanding it, and planning it out, magically accomplishes the task. It's like I've already done all the work... in my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    Si and Fe but Fe is defiantly more intensive.
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  6. #16
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    Fi “demon” object says you are internally a bad person (especially for your internal logical conclusions). You fight it through moral narcissism (e.g. self justification) and trying to “take down” others' moral stances.
    This is technically my 8th function and I do relate to the first sentence very much. If I'm unhealthy I relate to the second sentence as well.

    Ti “demon” object tells you you are stupid (especially for your internal feelings). You fight it through intellectual narcissism, and sometimes trying to take down others intellectually.
    I can relate to the first sentence sometimes, never the second sentence though.

    Fe “demon” object tells you no one appreciates you (for your logical ordering). You fight it through social narcissism, and try to take down others socially
    Completely unrelatable to me.

    Te “demon” object tells you you are inefficient (particularly at serving others). You fight it by through organizational narcissism, and try to take down others' organization.
    Very unrelatable.

    Se “demon" object observes your ineptitude in the current situation? You fight it by narcissistically trying to prove your ability, often in a rash fashion
    Yes, I do feel this way whenever I experience something that I am not good at but have to accomplish.

    Ni “demon” object observes negative “big pictures”. You fight it through narcissistically claiming to know what will happen in the future.
    This is relatable as well, I tend to imagine the future negatively and become convinced of it.

    Si “demon” object observes negative past experience. You fight it through narcissistically denying the reality of your role in situations or manufacturing alternate histories
    I do have a tendency to think about negative things that happened in the past, but I do not actively try to change my memories as far as I know.

    Ne “demon” object observes negative hypothetical possibilities [in which you are extremely limited?]. You fight it through narcissistically taking wild chances [even apart from your normal sensory focus which knows when something is truly possible; i.e “do-able” in the current moment].
    Actually, this is very relatable, specifically the first sentence. I don't take wild chances as much but it happens.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    @Eric B

    Well, I can relate to three of them in a "demonic" sense, Fe, Te, and Se, although my actual 8th function is supposed to be Se.

    Fe “demon” object tells you no one appreciates you (for your logical ordering). You fight it through social narcissism, and try to take down others socially

    I can relate to feeling unappreciated, despite feeling like I have to try 10x as hard as a more "likable" person to live up to what I perceive as the performance standards, and even then, being considered the most expendable person. (I'm not sure what you mean by "for your logical ordering". Unappreciated for your logical ordering?)
    Fe is your tertiary (which is carried by the "Child" archetype), so being less conscious than the preferred functions (the "Hero" and "Parent"), it too will be rather vulnerable. But the "narcissism", according to Beebe is coming from the Demonic complex, so that part of it you likely won't experience. That's how this works, and how you can get a sense of what position the function is operating in, even if some of the behaviors might be the same as other positions!

    Demonic Fe is reflecting dominant Te, and this is what the ego is driven to; hence, "logical ordering". They will likely neglect the more "personal" side of things, and this may cause problems with people, but this will be unconscious, yet still a nagging feeling of being unappreciated (logical ordering is what the "Hero" "saves the day" with, and they expect appreciation for it, even if they don't always express it), and so the narcissistic aspect will imagine they're good with people, they "deserve" what they want from them, and often manipulate them to their favor to prove it. Tertiary Fe won't be this bad.


    Te “demon” object tells you you are inefficient (particularly at serving others).

    I try very hard to be efficient and to be an excellent part of any team. This is similar to the Fe one, above, in that I feel like no matter how efficiently I work, and no matter how hard I try and how much I get done, it never seems to be enough to satisfy others. What really happens, though, is that they get pissed because of arbitrary reasons like "You didn't kiss my ass that day when I bent over and told you to," and despite my excellent performance, they say, "Your performance was half-assed. You failed to fulfill the requirements," even though that's not true; I exceeded the requirements. What this makes me feel like is that I'm inefficient, even though I'm not, and not at serving others--it makes me feel manipulated into a position in which "my place in life is to serve others," to go get them coffee and bullshit like that, when that's not my job. (I've had jobs that were straightforward coffee-pouring jobs, but that's not what I'm talking about.)

    You fight it by through organizational narcissism, and try to take down others' organization.

    Nah. I'm fighting it by training for a new career in a field that I hope attracts more down-to-earth types of people than my old field. So far, so good. I don't have a problem with organization (except for being somewhat prone to disorganization myself). I appreciate reliability. It's an admirable trait, and I work hard to be reliable. I'm not interested in sabotaging others' hard work and organization.
    Te is your "Witch", which is the "critical parent" in the 6th place. Even though it's in the shadow (unlike the tertiary, but like the Demon), it's not as low, so again, it's not going to come the same way. It's also on the "arm" of consciousness, which deals more with others, which is what we see.
    The Witch/Senex is about "negation" of the ego (by others), and exerts a critical authority to stop others in their tracks. What you're describing there sounds like reactions to threats to the Child [Fe], which is one of the things Beebe says triggers the Witch. It's also described as a "grumpy inner critic", so what these people on your job (who sound like Te-preferrers) are saying is resonating with this complex.


    Se “demon" object observes your ineptitude in the current situation?

    I feel less adept at physical situations, like finding a radial pulse on a medical actor. I can get the whole theory and routine down perfectly, but when it comes to taking vital signs, it's trickier. Finding the pulse, also deflating the blood pressure cuff at the right speed. I don't have trouble with driving, though; I drive like I know what I'm doing, and I do. So I'm sure that with practice, I will get better at specific physical actions, though I might not be a natural at first try.

    You fight it by narcissistically trying to prove your ability, often in a rash fashion

    LOL. I don't know; maybe? I'd have to ask people I work with if I come across this way. I would say that there's a chance.

    I don't think I "narcissistically" try to prove my ability. I do try very hard actually to be capable, though, because I'm afraid that, at heart, "inside", I'm really just a slob who can't get shit done.
    This is dependent on particular situation, where the ego feels gravely threatened (even if basically imaginary). If this is not happening for you right now, the complex, normally residing at the bottom of unconsciousness, won't seem to figure like that.
    And everyday physical activity is not "Se-use" in the sense of the Demon or any other complex. That would be an "undifferentiated" form, but when the Demonic personality is constellated (or any other Se-associated complex for the other types), then it will manifest a more distinct Se perspective as part of its agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by LingkinPark View Post
    I can relate to the first sentence sometimes, never the second sentence though.
    Because Ti is your "Hero", and we will always become "narcissistic" at times around our Hero, as it is ego's main agenda. But the Hero is not narcissistic in itself (in a pathological way, unless unhealthy and likely being influenced by the demonic personality).

    Completely unrelatable to me.
    Very unrelatable.
    Fe and Te are not your Demonic function, and depending on how conscious you are with them, you may or may not feel unappreciated or inefficient through them.
    Yes, I do feel this way whenever I experience something that I am not good at but have to accomplish.
    Se is your "Good Parent" (aux.), so naturally, if you feel you're not good at something, you will feel inept and try to prove yourself. The difference between this and the Demonic version is that this is still a rather "mature", confident function that you're naturally drawn to be good in (and even "parent" others with), but if demonic, the person isn't confident like that and often ignores physical detail, being he leads with Ne; so now, this complex will come up, and he will suddenly try to master something physical, and without the natural conscious determination to learn it that you might have (hence, "rash", and "pathologically" narcissistic. This was one of the ones I wasn't completely sure of how to express, but this should basically cover the difference).
    This is relatable as well, I tend to imagine the future negatively and become convinced of it.
    I do have a tendency to think about negative things that happened in the past, but I do not actively try to change my memories as far as I know.
    Ni is your tertiary (the "Child"), so as I explained above, it will be less mature than the preferred functions. It's not really "narcissistic" in itself, but the eternal Child or "Puer" archetype is known to "inflate" itself, to try to appear more mature than it actually is.
    Si is Senex, and will have more of an authoritativeness, and often erupts when the ego is too rigid, which may seem "narcissistic".
    Actually, this is very relatable, specifically the first sentence. I don't take wild chances as much but it happens.
    Ne is your Trickster, which is the 7th place function, and almost as low in the shadow as the demon, but may be similar as far as rash, unconscious behavior compensating for our vulnerabilities; but still different. The Trickster is about feeling double-bound, and then trying to turn the table on the threat. (It too, like the Witch, is on the "arm", where the Demon, like the Hero, is on the "spine").

    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    Oh, this is how it really gets demonic for me, and sometimes I think it's associated with Te, but maybe it's Se:

    I'm afraid that if I don't keep a schedule and list all the things that I need to do, I'll completely forget to do most of them, and the house will fall down, figuratively speaking to some extent--but not entirely figuratively speaking; I mean, I do actually need to re-caulk the bathtub pretty soon. I keep track of everything I need to get done, and I have a very thorough understanding of what needs to be done, and pretty much how, and when it needs to be done. But keeping track of everything that needs to be done doesn't even translate into getting it done when I think I should. My problem in this regard, I think, is that on some level, I believe that just knowing what needs to be done, and understanding it, and planning it out, magically accomplishes the task. It's like I've already done all the work... in my head.
    This sounds like an Si problem, and that's your inferior. Beebe mentions that if "the inferior function has not been taken up as a problem by the individual in the course of the development of his consciousness, it is no match for the demonic aspect of the unconscious" (And he gives his example of his own inferior Si "anima" figure, embodied in the image of a Chinese laundress), so I guess the "narcissistic" Se (demonic) aspect might be interpreting the current situation (i.e. seeing it as if it's done, "magically". Witch Te is probably involved as well).
    Again, this will really depend on the level of stress involved; like if it's some sort of "issue" where your ego feels really threatened. Otherwise, it's probably just a deficiency of your inferior function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Te is your "Witch", which is the "critical parent" in the 6th place. (...) It's also described as a "grumpy inner critic", so what these people on your job (who sound like Te-preferrers) are saying is resonating with this complex.
    They're usually ENFPs, I think. They get upset because I'm not giving them whatever it is that they want on an emotional level, and then they disingenuously attribute it to my failure to accomplish tasks. They don't always switch it like that; sometimes, they just keep it more "touchy-feely" as the grownups back in the 80's used to say. When they do switch it, it could be because of their Te "child". I don't know. They willfully get facts related to the past wrong, like you described for "demon" Si. Si would be their inferior, though, like mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This is dependent on particular situation, where the ego feels gravely threatened (even if basically imaginary). If this is not happening for you right now, the complex, normally residing at the bottom of unconsciousness, won't seem to figure like that.
    And everyday physical activity is not "Se-use" in the sense of the Demon or any other complex. That would be an "undifferentiated" form, but when the Demonic personality is constellated (or any other Se-associated complex for the other types), then it will manifest a more distinct Se perspective as part of its agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This sounds like an Si problem, and that's your inferior. Beebe mentions that if "the inferior function has not been taken up as a problem by the individual in the course of the development of his consciousness, it is no match for the demonic aspect of the unconscious" (And he gives his example of his own inferior Si "anima" figure, embodied in the image of a Chinese laundress), so I guess the "narcissistic" Se (demonic) aspect might be interpreting the current situation (i.e. seeing it as if it's done, "magically". Witch Te is probably involved as well).
    Again, this will really depend on the level of stress involved; like if it's some sort of "issue" where your ego feels really threatened. Otherwise, it's probably just a deficiency of your inferior function.
    Hmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken View Post
    I can't decide between demonic Si, Ni, or Se. I think, at my absolute worst, I completely disregard my own boundaries as well as others', behaving destructively and then I wake up somewhere along the way with deep feelings of self hatred/shame over what I have done. I would cut myself, for example, and then logically deduct it that I can use that to show the world what they've done to me.. no one in specific.. just against humanity as a whole. Poetry in blood letting, so to speak. And I could remember something incorrectly, or just partial of it through my own interpretations, and even at the face of hard evidence proving me wrong, I'll vehemently defend my point of view.. Because certain things just cannot be seen through eyes alone. Maybe that could be demonic Ne, I don't know.
    If you're INFP, then Ti is the demonic function, and Si is the "child" (Puert; tertiary), Ni is the Witch and Se is the Trickster.
    As I explained above, the Trickster will be similar to the Demon in being very low in the Shadow. But it's more about "double-binding" than narcissism. The Witch is also shadow, but is more about feeling negated somehow, and then exerting a critical authority. The Child is not shadow, but is rather close to consciousness (being the next after the preferred functions), yet is vulnerable, and feeling threatened there will often trigger the shadows.
    So then more than one of these things will be operating at the same time, and you mentioned making a logical deduction to show the world what it has done, so that might be demonic Ti, and it would seem to fit a narcissistic motive. And with the situation involved (not just everyday stress), I would say the Demonic Personality (and the rest of the Shadow) is definitely involved in there, for this is the type of thing they are usually called for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    Si and Fe but Fe is defiantly more intensive.
    Yes, that would fit both the Trickster and Demon, with the demon being more intensive!


    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    Beebe isn't one that I've read. Can you please explain how and why Beebe considers the Demonic Personality to be 'pathologically narcissistic'?
    I'll have to get his book again (I rented it on Kindle, and plan to get a hard copy whenever I have the money for it), but what I have on my review Book Review: Beebe “Energies and Patterns in Psychological Type” | "ERIPEDIA" I have that he wrote that narcissistic men “will readily set up people to imagine that they can easily save him from his pathological narcissism by carrying for him the integrity his demonic personality craves." (He then goes into his archetypal interpretation of the movie As Good As It Gets, which had described to me, with the the Melvin character as the demonic personality, and Carol as the anima. I know nothing about this movie, as I’m not into most live action fiction).

    We must remember, the Demonic Personality is the "shadow" of the anima or inferior, which is tied up with our psyche's need for "integrity" in Beebe's framework. So narcissism is connected with the seeking of this integrity.

    As I write in my interpretation in that article, if the ego could possess the “wholeness” the demon seeks, it would have a lot to be narcissistic about! So the demon’s “narcissism” compensates for the vulnerability of the inferiority complex. We feel inferior in a particular perspective in one attitude, but surmise that we’ve really mastered the perspective in the other attitude. It’s really the furthest from consciousness of all, and when this is exposed, we again feel our very ego is being disintegrated, and then go on the attack.
    Basically, the “demonic personality” looks for “integrity” in all the wrong places, or goes about it the wrong way!

    He in the following chapter mentions how the position is “undermining, unless it is held to a standard of integrity, in which case it can become daimonic, an opportunity for spirit to enter the psyche from a shadowy place that had once only been an occasion for fear. He uses as an example prayer; “the integrity that accompanies the humility of praying to a power Other enough to be potentially destructive, and which may in its own way have already visited destruction of some aspect of the life of the person now praying”, which then “often moves the very same deity enough to offer illumination, compassion and a transformative intervention”.
    This I definitely struggle with, especially as I deal with the role of God in all this, with Christians often citing scriptures like Job 13:15 “Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him”.
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