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  1. #11
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Newsflash: an ENTJ can't run a company or argue a case in a court of law living in a fantasy world. Use your head.
    ENTJ can have unrealistic visions. Damn, they have a lot but they can use their false for their later achievements which is why they are grate.
    Let's say having a high expectation from people it is very unrealistic thing. Strong Ni user can literally and figurative loose sensation for the real world. This is fantasy!
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
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    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    ENTJ can have unrealistic visions.
    And realistic visions.
    Who, if not you. When, if not now.


    Likes Norexan liked this post

  3. #13
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And realistic visions.
    That is expected part from them.
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Turi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    @Turi

    Si and Ni are ORGANIZING function.
    But difference between them is Si organized things in realistic way and Ni in imaginative.
    This is almost accurate, you're on the right path.
    The introverted attitude acts as essentially a "chokehold" on the flow of information that the person intakes - this is why "Organize" works for Si and Ni - without understanding this, "Organize" is actually not true to Jung, as organizing is the realm of the Thinking and Feeling functions, as they are the ones that literally organize and prioritize information via making judgments.

    "Organize" works, perfectly, when you zoom out and understand it as said chokehold on the flow of information that the person intakes - this is to say, it *excludes* information that the subject is not interested in.

    As an introverted Sensation type - what this means, is that say I am in a room, and somebody walks in - I notice the vibrancy of her hair, I notice the watch she's wearing, I notice the way she walks - this is my perspective being "Organized" by what I am interested in - everything else is drowned out - this example is similar to the one Marie-Louise von Franz used, to depict how she actually came to understand Sensation in the introverted attitude when Emma Jung detailed it as a sort of "highly sensitive photographic plate" - this idea is supported by Carl Jungs descriptor in Chapter X, that depicts the introverted Sensation type as essentially 'neutral' towards practically everything they perceive, outside of those that pique their interest - what piques the interest is unpredictable according to Jung (I would content this from a holistic perspective, however I realize his descriptors are to detail "pure" types and so, his introverted Sensation type lacks the judgment ordinary people have).

    One way to understand the feeling of Si, is to imagine it's Christmas, and you know what you're getting, and there's one present you want more than others - all the other presents mean nothing, or less to you, because your attention is oriented towards the one you *are* interested in.
    Place that as a filter over your entire life, and you'll understand introverted Sensation as a subjective disposition towards real-world facts (S) that pique the interest of the person (introverted aspect).

    ALL SJ users are described as down-to-earth? Because of what? Because of Si. Of course you can claim that you are not down-to-earth, generate some weak Ne thing but I see Si users how they are actually grounded and have resistance for change.
    My apologies, I thought I was clear in an earlier post - I'm not interested in an MBTI perspective.
    SJ to me, is a meaningless combination - it only means something from a pure dichotomy perspective - which I respect, completely, the dichotomy has 50+ years of research behind it - but connection a function, in a specific attitude, to any dichotomy pairing is misguided as this correlation has never been clinically validated.

    There is no research to suggest that a Jungian Sensation in the introverted attitude relates to the MBTI dichotomy SJ pairing - SJ descriptors are full of *J* descriptors, hence the *J*.
    MBTI does not, in any way shape nor form, actually test for "cognitive functions" and so connecting the two doesn't make any sense, as essentially these correlations have been all but disproven at this time.

    "down to earth", "realistic" and "resistant to change" are stereotypes that might resonate with people that relate to "SJ" via dichotomy - but this has no connection to Sensation in the introverted attitude at all, if you'll kindly read some Jung you will understand just how modified Sensation actually becomes in the introverted attitude.



    No it is not. Si and Se have NOTHING to do with facts. Dealing with facts or impersonal data is Thinking. And I have to please people to stop with S=facts BS.
    I'm sorry, but this is inaccurate, Sensation - regardless of orientation, is the perception of observable facts - no more, and no less - Thinking has literally nothing to do with this, outside of utilizing facts in order to make it's decisions - Thinking itself is not perception and therefore irrelevant to the perception of facts ie intake of information.

    Here is a little Jung for you:
    The psychological function of sensation is the perception of reality, and the standpoint of the sensation type is simply the standpoint of facts. When a person practices recognition of facts, he is doing something for his sensation; but taking a hot bath or painting intuitive misconstruction, he is mixing up the sensations of the body with the principle of sensation, which is really the principle of facts.
    Dream Analysis 1, Notes of the Seminar Given in 1928-30 – C.G. Jung 623-624

    Jung speaks of the same thing many times in Psychological Types as well as other works - Sensation is quite literally the perception of facts.
    That is the sole purpose of the Sensation function. To perceive facts.

    To claim that Si and Se have "NOTHING" (emphasis yours) to do with facts is to completely and utterly misunderstand Sensation, in the more extreme possible way - you are literally claiming Sensation is not the exact and specific thing that it is.

    Te <- get facts and make conclusion -> researcher scientist
    Ti <- get idea and search for the facts -> rational scientist.
    This is almost accurate - however, the "getting" and "searching" of facts, has nothing to do directly, with Thinking.
    Thinking simply uses those facts in order to make judgments/decisions, as Jung outlines:

    Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by the latter than by the former. Judgment always presupposes a criterion; for the extraverted judgment, the criterion supplied by external conditions is the valid and determining one, no matter whether it be represented directly by an objective, perceptible fact or by an objective idea; for an objective idea is equally determined by external data or borrowed from outside even when it is subjectively sanctioned.
    Jung, Carl. Psychological Types (Routledge Classics) (pp. 317-318). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.

    Essentially, Extraverted Thinking is outer-world criteria - you could view this as the wide spectrum of tribe-reasons, if you're into ObjectivePersonality because it's a great fit as it touches on both the removal of Feeling values from the outer-world criteria, and it also strips away the "facts" (Sensation) aspect of Thinking, to actually get at the true essence of Thinking - which is, to make decisions that make sense in according with criterion supplied by external conditions.

    Thinking in the Extraverted attitude is absolutely fed by objective data transmitted via sense-perception, but this sense-perception itself is not Thinking it merely informs the Thinking - ie, provides Thinking with the information it prefers, to make a decision with.

    I do take issues with you outlining 'Ti' as "getting an idea" - 'Te' is also idea-oriented - the sole difference being, those ideas will be oriented towards the external/outer world ie current events etc, and 'Ti' meaning those ideas are oriented towards the inner world, ones own ideas (removed from current events and the external/outer world), however this is getting too far off-topic, which is to assist the OP understand the differences between N and S.

    Now NEXT question is how you organized your data in imaginative Ni or in realistic way Si?
    Or how you explore new idea with imagination Ne or realism Se?
    That is another part of the story.
    I don't believe it is another part of the story, as it is directly relevant to the OP and I've also covered it earlier in this post to some degree.

    The only real way to separate N from S, in a fashion that will be understandable and usable "at mass" to type with - is to view Sensation as "real" and Intuition as "imagination" or "not real".
    This isn't intended to make either sound more or less smarter than the other.

    What I mean, is that Sensation pure and simple, perceives real-world facts - observable, tangible ones (that's it, end of Sensation).
    Intuition perceives information via the unconscious - this is then, non-tangible information and so, is imagined and for all practical purposes, "not real" (that's it, end of Intuition).
    Both S/N do absolutely nothing but perceive/observe. They do not create goals. They do not make decisions. They do not plan. They do not make 'step-by-step' anythings.

    So that's S/N and this understanding is outlined in my first response in this thread.
    Organize, which I am on-board with as a way to define the functions in the introverted attitude - is merely a subjective disposition towards information that piques the persons interest.
    Essentially it's no more than a limited perspective.

    This isn't to say Si/Ni types can't broaden their perspective, they are simply naturally oriented towards limiting it to information that piques their interest - and, as I outlined in my first response in this thread, bean-counting won't work - just because you see someone apparently hone in on some information, doesn't magically mean they are an "Ni" or "Si" type at all, it simply means they honed in on some information.
    Can't type people without observing them for a long time and doing all relevant cross-checks etc, for instance to play the functions game properly (something that has no scientific validity behind it at the moment) - you've got to lock in various things, I'll use Si as an example:

    Need to confirm the person is first and foremost an observer/perceiver, and not a decider - this has to be cross-checked with having consistent problems regarding information, in this case, it should be consistent issues with "connecting the dots" ie understanding what all the information means *as a whole*.

    Then you need to cross-check that, with a relative balance between the Thinking and Feeling functions - essentially, confirming the person is both a single observer type (with issues regarding the opposite observer) and a double-decider (the balance won't be perfect, 60/40ish - just balanced 'relative' to the imbalanced observers).

    Then you need to clarify whether the person is naturally oriented towards gathering new information, or organizing known information when push comes to shove - this has to be consistent, provable, something you observe over a long period of time - eventually you will find people, when they are down and out or in trouble, and you will identify what they do - so for Si, you need to observe someone finding themselves backed into a corner, and every time this happens, they keep running to "known" information to fight you with. That's organize.
    That has to be preferred, consistently, over the person wanting to seek out new information and gather new facts (we are talking Sensation here) etc to fight you with.

    Then you need to clarify whether that information, is S (facts) or N (imagination) - do they pull out facts, figures, statistics, things they can prove etc - or do they pull out abstract connections and concepts to fight you with?
    Of course, everyone can and do everything, but over time you will see a pattern emerge whereby the person (Si in this example) consistently resorts to pulling out known facts to battle you with - they will trip you up by pulling out new information here and there, but ultimately they prefer to just hit you with facts (S) they know - due to the introverted aspect of Sensation.

    Then, that's it, without even getting down to the function-attitudes which is basically micro-level typology, you've already identified "Si" by way of determining the person is an observer (S/N) over a decider (T/F) and they prefer to Organize information and use known information over gathering new information and you can prove this is a constant in their life, and you've determined that the information they run to (consistently) is real-world/tangible by way of facts, and is not imagined/abstract information by way of intuition.

  5. #15
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    @Turi

    We are on right path.

    About Sensation and facts. Yes, Sensation need evidence, real things..blah blah.. so in this way of thinking you can call sensation is about facts but Sensation like Intution is or getter or organizer and it is IRRATIONAL function. Facts and irrationality? Maybe in church... Facts is clearly impersonal data and Thinking is the function who choose facts , "making sense" etc over people and self. End of story. When I say fact , I think fact as facts in impersonal form like logic, science, graph etc not in personal.


    . They do not create goals. They do not plan. They do not make 'step-by-step' anythings.

    Absolutely Wrong. See IxxJ.


    If you want to know how some functions looks like see people with that dominate function because all others functions bellow suffer consequences of actions functions above.
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
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    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Turi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    @Turi

    We are on right path.

    About Sensation and facts. Yes, Sensation need evidence, real things..blah blah.. so in this way of thinking you can call sensation is about facts but Sensation like Intution is or getter or organizer and it is IRRATIONAL function. Facts and irrationality? Maybe in church... Facts is clearly impersonal data and Thinking is the function who choose facts , "making sense" etc over people and self. End of story. When I say fact , I think fact as facts in impersonal form like logic, science, graph etc not in personal.
    Right, you're using the wrong definition of "fact", the correct one - the one aligned with what Jung outlines, in that Sensation merely 'perceives the facts' is the following, from the Oxford dictionary:
    "a thing that is known or proved to be true.
    synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude;"

    Ergo, Sensation perceives actual real facts, reality, actualities, things that are certain - by way of the persons 5 senses.
    The definition you are utilizing is clearly Thinking/Feeling - considering Sensation is an irrational function, ie - beyond reason - it makes no sense to follow your definition of "facts", and only makes sense to understand it the way I have outlined.

    Absolutely Wrong. See IxxJ.
    Yeah, let me just lay this down for you - the "J" pertains to Judging.
    Considering there has been absolutely no studies supporting the correlation of cognitive functions to dichotomy, it's safe to assume that "J", whether it is paired with I or E, represents precisely what it says - Judging.

    It's within J - Judging - that we see plans/step-by-step/goals etc - reason being, J reflects making decisions/judgments.
    It is not perception.

    It is a mistake to believe a "J" via dichotomy is actually clinically validated as expressing a true "P" preference.

    So, yes - I will see IxxJs - and yes, I see those aspects correlating to J, which is neither Intuition nor Sensation.

  7. #17
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turi View Post
    Right, you're using the wrong definition of "fact", the correct one - the one aligned with what Jung outlines, in that Sensation merely 'perceives the facts' is the following, from the Oxford dictionary:
    "a thing that is known or proved to be true.
    synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty, factuality, certitude;"

    Ergo, Sensation perceives actual real facts, reality, actualities, things that are certain - by way of the persons 5 senses.
    The definition you are utilizing is clearly Thinking/Feeling - considering Sensation is an irrational function, ie - beyond reason - it makes no sense to follow your definition of "facts", and only makes sense to understand it the way I have outlined.



    Yeah, let me just lay this down for you - the "J" pertains to Judging.
    Considering there has been absolutely no studies supporting the correlation of cognitive functions to dichotomy, it's safe to assume that "J", whether it is paired with I or E, represents precisely what it says - Judging.

    It's within J - Judging - that we see plans/step-by-step/goals etc - reason being, J reflects making decisions/judgments.
    It is not perception.

    It is a mistake to believe a "J" via dichotomy is actually clinically validated as expressing a true "P" preference.

    So, yes - I will see IxxJs - and yes, I see those aspects correlating to J, which is neither Intuition nor Sensation.
    In socionics S/N is irrational.

    Why? Let's think about ESTP who destroy reality in split of second with his reckless nature and take another suicide mission.

    What does it tell about Se? Se just getting things outside regardless of does it make it sense or not. It is just collector of reality. Nothing less or more.
    It is Thinking that choose facts over BS around you. We are getting all data but facts IS NOT data. Fact is what is clear and true like White is the collection of colors or In 1939 WW2 started. This is facts! But not some "You can breath in the space." story which you can ALSO hear with Se!


    Functions =/= types but dominate function is closely you.
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Turi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    In socionics S/N is irrational.

    Why? Let's think about ESTP who destroy reality in split of second with his reckless nature and take another suicide mission.
    Let's not think about ESTPs in that fashion.

    What does it tell about Se? Se just getting things outside regardless of does it make it sense or not. It is just collector of reality. Nothing less or more.
    It is Thinking that choose facts over BS around you. We are getting all data but facts IS NOT data. Fact is what is clear and true like White is the collection of colors or In 1939 WW2 started. This is facts! But not some "You can breath in the space." story which you can ALSO hear with Se!
    We appear to have a similar perspective, however you're still failing to understand 'facts' from a Sensation standpoint - data obtained via your sense-perception, are sensory 'facts'.
    That is what is meant.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Turi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    I don't see how "breathing in space" , "flying like a Superman" is reality.
    That's nice to know.

    Anyway what I suppose to say N and S just get or organize things they don't decide WHICH things needs to be use and things what you sense are not facts, neither reality.
    I agree they get things, however I know you're misunderstanding 'organize' in this statement - the way, the only possible way, that N/S "organize" anything, is by way of filtering what information goes through to the decider functions.
    Any and all literal "organizing" of information, is the work of Thinking/Feeling by way of prioritization and classification being required to organize.
    Organize fits, beautifully, for Ni/Si however it works in the exact opposite way to what you believe.

    Things that you receive via your sensory perception, are indeed "facts" from a Sensation standpoint.
    Quite literally what is meant, here's Jung:

    The psychological function of sensation is the perception of reality, and the standpoint of the sensation type is simply the standpoint of facts. When a person practices recognition of facts, he is doing something for his sensation; but taking a hot bath or painting intuitive misconstruction, he is mixing up the sensations of the body with the principle of sensation, which is really the principle of facts.
    Sensation is absolutely, definitively, the perception of reality, and does literally nothing but perceive the facts - Sensations only purpose, is to inform us of the existence of something via our five senses, that's it - and the data you receive, are "facts" as understood from the Sensation perspective.

    Decision is very important when comes to facts because everything what exist before your eyes is not the fact but paranoia or some fantasy thing.
    This is very clear that facts are connecting to T , not to S.
    This doesn't make anything clear at all, and is misguided. From the perspective of Sensation, what is "before your eyes" is indeed "the facts".
    This is literally Sensation.

  10. #20
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    @Turi

    That "before your eyes" is Sensation but it is not the FACT but INFORMATION as you said.
    INFORMATION =/= FACT Sensation is looking for real things and that's it.
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

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