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  1. #21
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    I just don't see the functions (like Fe/Te) manifesting that simply in real life. Je is object-oriented Judging but has a lot more nuance to it than tendencies of external organization, stability and order, especially when we then have individuals only Secondary not Primary Je even less detectable by tests. Then try to test a real Ni dominant who lives in the abstract, for good detailed J organization. There's a reason most Ns test as P. Perhaps Polaris and I may agree that J/P may not be a great indicator for discerning any type after all, but in my opinion, the better indicator should be one's primary function--from my experience, if one is a primary Perceiver or Judger then it is much more obvious once you know the person well. MBTI's J/P seems to be hit-or-miss.
    shhh

  2. #22
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    If we take into consideration the last 3 dichotomies are mostly pretty accurate: N/S, F/T, and (J)udging vs (P)erceiving primary way of life, and we just haven't spent enough time understanding what an Introverted vs Extraverted function really is in nature, that is, we've written someone's primary function off based on if they're Social or not (typed many ENTPs, INTPs etc.) but in reality haven't typed accurately based on getting to the heart of what their cognitive orientation is:

    If N/S F/T and J/P are correct, then a cognitive orientation, for instance,for an ENTJ (Te) vs INTJ (Ti) depends not on social behavior but on what the primary decisive/judging lifestyle stems from: does it stem from situational context-making decisions, aka, external resolution for the sake of making things happen and decided (Te Extraverted Reasoning), or is it about one's holistic internal convictions leading to primary resolve and decisiveness (Ti Introverted Reasoning.) Two opposite orientations, one resulting from a desire for external resolve, one resulting from a desire for internal resolve and its application to situations.

    P types desiring resolve less than they do openness, in a similar fashion, for the ENTP (Ne) vs INTP (Ni), does it come down to one desiring situational openness to context via external exploration (Ne Extraverted Imagination), or does it come down to general holistic thought openness, leading to detached wandering, a watery basis for external resolve where Je is simply secondary defense (Ni Introverted Imagination). Again two opposite orientations. These orientations stem from one's attention to either their object/situation, or the inner subject (detached thinking.) This explains INxJs having reactive Situational Intuition or Vision (Ne,) as you'll see below the Secondary function is reactive. INxJs are Primarily resolved in their personal beliefs, while INxPs attune to Te/Fe as an external reaction for not having strong inner resolve.

    Going with this more accurate definition of little to do with "Social orientation" but one's external vs internal orientation, true Extraverted vs Introverted function, it is possible to apply typings to various famous people knowing what we know about their other 3 dichotomies. Here are potential examples that I believe fit incredibly well:

    The dominant function is one's primary way of processing, and one's primary way of viewing all the other functions.
    The reactive function is one's main strength in opposite situations, either for Ps when there's too much information coming in (Ji/Je) or for Js when there's not enough information to make a decision (Pi/Pe).
    The slave function acts as a process you don't really have but are simulating through the dominant function, you're opening yourself up to it through how the dominant wants.


    INTP - Ni dom=open conceptualization, Te react, Ti slave
    Neo (The Matrix) - NiTe
    Gandalf (Lord of the Rings) - NiTe

    ENTP - Ne dom=open external speculation, Ti react, Te slave
    L (Death Note) - NeTi introverted subtype
    Tyrion Lannister (Game of Thrones) - NeTi

    INTJ - Ti dom=strong system and map, Ne react, Ni slave
    Walter White (Breaking Bad) - TiNe
    Severus Snape (Harry Potter) - TiNe

    ENTJ - Te dom=strong rational push, Ni react, Ne slave
    Petyr Baelish (Game of Thrones) - TeNi introverted subtype
    Light Yagami (Death Note) - TeNi introverted subtype
    Tywin Lannister (Game of Thrones) - TeNi

    INFP - Ni dom=open conceptualization, Fe react, Fi slave
    Kurt Cobain - NiFe common Socionics typing
    Johnny Depp - NiFe common Socionics typing

    ENFP - Ne dom=open external speculation, Fi react, Fe slave
    Luke Skywalker (Star Wars) - NeFi introverted subtype
    Felix Kjellberg (PewDiePie) - NeFi

    INFJ - Fi dom=strong system and map, Ne react, Ni slave
    Albus Dumbledore (Harry Potter) - FiNe
    Aragorn (Lord of the Rings) - FiNe
    Daenerys Targaryen (Game of Thrones) - FiNe decisive subtype

    ENFJ - Fe dom=strong tactful push, Ni react, Ne slave
    Margaery Tyrell (Game of Thrones) - FeNi
    Jennifer Lawrence (Actress) - FeNi
    Barack Obama (President) - FeNi

    Again, this whole concept is something to simply think about and be open-minded to. There are other ways to think about the I vs E function difference.
    Last edited by Dashy CVII; 06-28-2018 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Adding type examples
    shhh

  3. #23
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I am not Fi Ne. And personal beliefs is one of the areas where I am least resolved.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  4. #24
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    All you've really done, as far as I can tell, is exchanged the labels for IJ and IP. Your description of an IP type is almost the same as the MBTI description of an IJ type.

    EDIT: This was written in response to a post that got deleted.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  5. #25
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    I think I'll spend a little time on this each day, not too much, adding more and more famous examples until there's an extensive gallery. I'm really open-minded when it comes to typology and most topics, but personally not convinced that any Perceiver (who tests as a clear P) has a dominant J function. I know a lot of IJs on the other hand with a dominant strong worldview and beliefs. This conclusion is from my experience with a lot of people irl, I'm very open-minded when it comes to typology, but I don't really buy MBTI's take on the functions. For you guys however, it's a project of sorts, that you can simply be open-minded to.

    A P type has either dominant situational Perception (Pe) with a reactive worldview when needed (Ji, like in the below example Luke Skywalker, an Fi reactive type), or a P type has dominant holistic thought Perception (Pi) with a reactive situational resolve when needed (Je). Ji types on the other hand, like Daenerys Targaryen and Aragorn, are excellent examples of the Fi type with a firm Values worldview, related to their P cousin the NeFi, like Luke Skywalker with a worldview strong but more put on the back-burner. You have to watch some videos of these types, they're great examples of the types. In contrast, NiFe types like Kurt Cobain and Johnny Depp who have really weak and open worldviews, are constantly Perceiving dominantly to figure their internal world of ideas out: Fi isn't strong and confident like it is with the Fi types above, it becomes a slave to Ni whose purpose is to explore the mind and understand what Fi could be to them in different ways. This is very predominant of NiFes that an Fi value system is weak, wishy-washy, poorly-understood by the NiFe. INFJs jump right in with a keen understanding of what their Fi values are and what they are for others. INFJs often understand INFP's Fi more than they do:

    In NiFes, Fe emotional morphing and tact with individuals is their most common reaction, that is because, even though they're serious, they have no real solid worldview, they're figuring out their mind and instead their Values are very situational and reactive to the moment, like in the FeNi examples Margaery Tyrell, Barack Obama and Jennifer Lawrence. Johnny Depp's acting is great example of Fe realization. NiFes can realize their J side fairly easily, once they realize they don't need to attach their Judgements to introverted beliefs, they can act and be externally decisive at a faster rate than INxJs. This attitude of reactive decisiveness is something difficult for the INxJ to grasp, because the INxJ is constantly hindered by belief systems, they are very self-disciplined. It's an illusion that INxPs have Ti/Fi, caused by MBTI brainwashing ime. Another great example is the Craftsman, SiTe, who utilizes reactive Te to get a feel for how things work in their environment but they don't use an inner belief system (Ti.) Other great Ni examples are Neo and Gandalf (NiTe) who eventually realized their Te, but who have primary Ni and Ti-slave. (Gandalf was trickier because he has 3 states very balanced due to age: introverted perception (Ni), extraverted resolve (Te), and introverted conviction (Fi). Introverted P seems to be his default life-personality, his true soul; he uses Te only when he needs to, he's learned to hone it, but overall is not that organized.) I have many more examples to come however I base this understanding on large samples of people I know irl.

    If you're an INxP with a strong worldview and belief system, it's likely you are mistyped, as many TiNes type as INTx. In other words, Ns tend to type as more 'P' in general, because Intuition is a more taxing perception process that takes more time to visualize in daily life--the J scale needs to be adjusted.

    People are calling IPs Ji and IJs Pi, but if you can bare with me with an open mind, I'm not sure they understand how incorrect that is in reality. We need to spend more time with IPs and IJs by understanding Introversion as internal orientation, not nonsocial (a mistype.) Extraverts can be quite reserved but are still primarily external. In this presentation, since you Polaris don't relate to having a solid inward worldview or belief system, if it is you type as J, that means your dominant way is Judging. Since there is no dominant worldview responsible for your primary Judgement lifestyle, your lifestyle is instead tied to a primary need for situational Resolve / Judgement in life (ENFJ) via a weak worldview. However, if you typed J by mistake on the test, then your type in this presentation is INFP (like ENFJ they have no strong worldview.) One thing we don't mistake in this system is INFJs as non-social and ENFJs as social, since that's not the function's definition: Xe is defined as object/situation orientation. Xi means that the object/situation goes primarily ignored, meaning, they have primary inward holistic orientation. For INFJ, this is where their dominant Judging lifestyle comes from from. These functions fit the types in MBTI around 10x better ime, once you get their E/I orientation correct; it's pretty clear. We just need to unwind the brainwashing, fix mistypes, and understand the slave function as kind of the 'toy' for the dominant. It's not real, but plastic and manipulated.


    Updates today:
    Jennifer Lawrence added to the typelist
    shhh

  6. #26
    Senior Member Luigi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashy CVII View Post
    a P type has dominant holistic thought Perception (Pi) with a reactive situational resolve when needed (Je)
    sounds like me

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