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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashy CVII View Post
    Upon realizing many patterns in the types, it seems that the Extroverted functions quite literally take on the nature of immersion, and the Introverted functions quite literally take on the nature of reflection, and they do so by existing in a duality as two sides of the same process: Fi-Te, Ti-Fe, Ni-Se, Si-Ne.

    We'll make a contrast first between the literally opposite perspectives, Ne/Si vs Ni/Se. Ni/Se types handle reality in a way that may seem stranger to Ne/Si, but it's all in perspective. Se takes a quite literal account of what's happening without any reading into a situation, so the Ni/Se type could find themselves often saying to the Ne type, "you know, that might be what's happening, I didn't see that, you're probably right" or "I'm skeptical of jumping to that conclusion." Ni's aim has always been different from seeing patterns externally and in dynamics, as it receives raw data from Se without anything added, then retreats inwardly to reflect in an abstract unapplied way, sometimes for days, but it never acts like Ne/Si by making frequent hunches/assumptions of externals (Ne) and reading into things sometimes as an ingenious talent of External Intuition, then Si accessing memory to see if it really has been so, or what other external possibilities there could be extrapolated from experience (Si.) This exact latter process, in a nutshell, seems like it should be the default process of a human, to realize the explicit truth and workings of things happening, but it is actually the opposite process of an Ni/Se type, whose daily obsession is not about matching up abstract external hunches with a sea of inner concrete data/experience, but about finding implicit deeper truth and meaning from a reflection of raw sensation of reality.

    Instead, Ni takes an enlongated, philosophical and impilcit approach to understanding reality, and Se sees and immerses fully into raw data as it is, so comfortably in-the-moment without wandering or putting much together but an appreciation of rawness (Se.) But once it latches firmly onto a big-picture concept that shocks oneself, it doesn't apply it specifically and say "see, here is the concrete proof of what's going on now (Ne/Si.) I solved it!" It instead solves a situation by interpreting it within its larger web of perception, "I solved what this means to me" or "what it could imply in a subject" (Ni out of context due to being anti-external) as it retreats deeper into its ideations of what a certain reality might entail as a bigger idea or truth, and over what personal lesson it takes away into the rest of their day's reflection (Ni.) It isn't explicitly applied to solve or conceive of what's really happening, like an Ne/Si does through seeing external patterns and imagery: The Ne/Si type goes into reflection by accessing all concrete data and information they know to be true (Si) so precisely without muddling it with abstract leaps unrelated to the moment, like Ni does, and where they shine is through seeing what really is behind a moment (Ne), reading dynamics and minds, seeing so easily the underlying patterns, something Ni is disinterested/shied away from, as, for Ni, these ideas are not internal and general enough to be applied to a slow pace of reflection upon a bigger-picture conceptual philosophy, or lessons and generalities about subjects and life (Ni.) We use all the functions to a degree.

    The definitions of the processes Ne, Ni, Se, Si are precisely, Intuition of Immersion, Intuition of Reflection, Sensing of Immersion, and Sensing of Reflection. We know the latter two as accurately defined in MBTI: Immersion (Se) and Memory (Si,) but they got it wrong on the first two, and neither of these four in total have anything to do with J vs P lifestyles.


    Fi-Te and Ti-Fe work in this same pattern of duality, of internal reflection to external immersion, back-and-forth, as one function makes up the internal life, and the other makes up the external application. And we know, we also less frequently use the process opposite to ours, when we need to learn more, but it's not our default pose.
    Reminds me of a story. I was heading to a training class with ISTJ and we saw a car wrapped around a pole. Convo went like this.

    ISTJ - wonder what happened
    ISTP - i bet the car hit the pole(sarcasm)
    ISTJ - no shit smart ass

    He played possibility game in a serious manner while i played sarcasm game.

    ISTP - maybe he was getting head and exploded and swerved
    ISTJ - whats make you think that
    ISTP - would be funny to try and tell people what happened not to mention it really is hard to stay outta ditches at that moment.
    Im out, its been fun
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  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    You have to remember, Myers started out trying to create another affective (as opposed to cognitive) system, dealing in our interpersonal interactions moreso than our own functional motivations. What many probably don't know, is that she even originally started out with four types similar to Adler and Fromm's theories (Spontaneous, Sociable, Executive, and Meditative), but then decided to integrate Jung's concepts, and it then eventually fanned out to the 16 types.

    So J/P was specifically designated for the preferred extraverted function, for that will figure more in interaction. This is why J/P were so instrumental in both the Keirsey temperaments, and the Interaction Styles. Using function stacks, we can see whether the dominant is judging or perceiving or not, so there's no reason to change the J/P factor (And I think whoever adopted Socionics to the MBTI dichotomies should have just used Jung's "rational/irrational" for the last factor).
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Yeah it's starting to make sense. I read this off of Quora the other day and it made a lot of sense:

    Eh, if your primary way of life is about coming to decisions and answers instead of staying open and pondering, you’re not a primary perceiver. MBTI pop psychology messed up on that one.

    INTPs and INFPs often mix each other up, that is because they both have the same primary function and both types are fairly equal at T/F. As Ps, their primary function is (N) imagination and abstract perception.

    Also notice how the MBTI clearly tests for empathy (F) VS reasoning (T) and then INFJs are the ones who get ‘Fe’ which is empathy, while INFPs get “individual values.” No, what this clearly demonstrates is that INFJs are simply stronger at F, because the MBTI tests only for F (empathy.) INFJs = Fi primary, more empathy-centered.
    This lead me to post some stuff. Especially about the last paragraph there: INFPs and ENFPs don't get the function "people values - Fe" but "self values - Fi" mainly because they're not F (empathy dominant) and F becomes a slave of the first function. The MBTI tests mainly for empathy vs logic, so both Fi and Fe are about the values of others.

    So this would indicate INFJ and ENFJ are Fi and Fe respectively, like in Socionics, but instead of saying INFJ is guaranteed Fi, instead you would say, one needs to test carefully for which one they are. Fi is about the same thing Feeling (F) is about:
    Feeling (F)
    I believe I can make the best decisions by weighing what people care about and the points-of-view of persons involved in a situation. I am concerned with values and what is the best for the people involved. I like to do whatever will establish or maintain harmony. In my relationships, I appear caring, warm, and tactful.

    The following statements generally apply to me:

    I have a people or communications orientation.
    I am concerned with harmony and nervous when it is missing.
    I look for what is important to others and express concern for others.
    I make decisions with my heart and want to be compassionate.
    I believe being tactful is more important than telling the "cold" truth.
    Sometimes I miss seeing or communicating the "hard truth" of situations.
    I am sometimes experienced by others as too idealistic, mushy, or indirect.
    And then about the second paragraph. INTPs and INFPs getting mistaken, this is just about the most common thing I've seen. I often come to the conclusion and type these individuals mistyped INxJs, Ni primaries, but now I'm thinking that INxP is more likely to be N > T/F > S.

    This also explains the INTJ death glare which I see in occasional INTPs (Feeling inferior.) There are a majority of INTJs who seem more Feeling inferior rather than Sensing inferior, because IxFPs Feeling is so readable, that it doesn't make sense that INTJ's is not readable. Instead, inferior is a decent theory.
    shhh

  4. #14
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    [empathy]/"people values - Fe" but "self values - Fi" is a common assumption, but it isn't really right. Both Fe and Fe deal in people, and the difference is that one simply takes on the "values" (determination of good/bad) of the environment of people, and the other infers them from within. In other words, their values they use to gauge the universal values that will be shared by others, and then put themselves in their place, saying "if that were me, I would feel this way [good/bad], and so this is what should be done to meet their needs". In fact, since "empathy" means "suffer IN", Fi is actually more about "empathy" (where Fe would be more "sympathy"; "suffer WITH").
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    [empathy]/"people values - Fe" but "self values - Fi" is a common assumption, but it isn't really right. Both Fe and Fe deal in people, and the difference is that one simply takes on the "values" (determination of good/bad) of the environment of people, and the other infers them from within. In other words, their values they use to gauge the universal values that will be shared by others, and then put themselves in their place, saying "if that were me, I would feel this way [good/bad], and so this is what should be done to meet their needs". In fact, since "empathy" means "suffer IN", Fi is actually more about "empathy" (where Fe would be more "sympathy"; "suffer WITH").
    Well, this seems fully accurate, because I know of no MBTI test that tests for "self values = IxFP" except the self values that every type uniquely has. We all favor self values.

    The MBTI tests for Fi/Fe strength, which = Empathy / Concern for others.

    But we can also take a guess at where the Fi = self values stereotype came from (a negative social stereotype as far as I've seen). It might have come from the majority of INFPs not being F primary after all, but like INTPs, they're Intuitive Perceiving primary.
    shhh

  6. #16
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    Yeah, and for that reason, saying "Fi='self values'" made it very hard to determine whether Fi was preferred, and thus leads to serious T/F confusion for INP's (and I imagine ISP's too), where on the T side, Fe is inferior, and so if you don't seem to "have" Fe, yet you have values, wants, etc., then it may seem like you prefer Fi. But general "values", are undifferentiated Fi, and when we say it's preferred (and especially if dominant), we mean differentiated, and taking a special place in the ego.
    (And notice, these IP's are dominant judgers, but it's easy for them to be confused as to their dominant judging functions. This is because it's introverted, and hard to even notice, because it's so "second nature". This is another reason why extraverted function is deemed more worthy of carrying the J/P tag, because it's more obvious, including to other people).
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  7. #17
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Tweaking the MBTI in that way redeems the theory for some and ruins it for the rest. (I'm one of the people whose 4 dichotomies and cognitive function preferences line up with each other.) I will add that I think the idea behind positing a contrast between a person's extroverted and introverted aspects is a sound one. A motion of one kind always coincides with a motion of the equal and opposite kind. This is as true of the human psyche as it is of anything else.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dashy CVII's Avatar
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    Polaris, don't mind me asking your personal opinion, if your type lines up well, what do you think Fe has to do with J on the MBTI test? (Even apparently as Eric and I mentioned above, we don't think Fe assumes sole responsibility for empathy and others' values (because Fi is equally focused on empathy.) But what even would the accurate definition of Fe have anything to do with a J lifestyle? I see J questions on the MBTI, don't see any Fe there, and tested many INFxs and get different functions from all of them.

    Ime, I don't think the MBTI test can decipher the correct functions as they manifest in people.
    shhh

  9. #19
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    I don't think that J as normally understood by practitioners of the MBTI has a whole lot to do with Fe.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Fe is very "J"-like, and is heavily into organizing the environment (which is what sets the standard for their sense of order). They also desire [external] "closure", which is one of the common J features. In some ways, they "think like" TJ's, though are much "softer", since they are not impersonal like that.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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