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  1. #11
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    As a follow-up for the OP's (possible) benefit...

    The latest edition of the MBTI Manual devotes a separate section to each two-letter combination. Here's how it describes INs (who it labels The Thoughtful Innovators):

    Introverts with Intuition (INs) are introspective and scholarly. They are interested in knowledge for its own sake, as well as ideas, theory, and depth of understanding. They are the least practical of the types, preferring the complexity of theory to the pragmatism of accomplishments in the world. Regardless of whether their Intuition is dominant and introverted (INFJ, INTJ) or auxiliary and extraverted (INFP, INTP), these types enjoy and seek out each other's company, feeling affirmed in their intellectual or philosophical interests and in their disinterest in and sometimes disdain for the practical world that seems to be so attractive to other types. They may be judged by others as too serious and as missing out on may of the activities and experiences available in the outside world. ...

    As types who are very serious academically, the results shown in Table 4.18 in the education area are not surprising. The intellectual sphere is often 'home' for IN types. It is therefore reasonable that, except for INFJ, they are the types most likely to report one or more ways in which they are dissatisfied with their work lives. Careers and jobs that allow people to devote the majority of their time to intellectual pursuits are relatively uncommon in the modern workplace.

    And here's how it describes ESs (who it labels The Action-Oriented Realists):

    Extraverts with Sensing (ESs) are active, realistic doers and are the most practical of the types. They learn best when useful applications are obvious. They enjoy the material world and devote attention to the appearance of things, both aesthetically and from a practical, utilitarian perspective. The pleasure and accomplishment involved in experiencing as much of the world as possible can be a persistent goal of ESs, and they may go to some effort to seek out particular interesting places, activities, modes of travel, and experiences. Regardless of whether their Sensing is extraverted and dominant (ESTP, ESFP) or introverted and auxiliary (ESTJ, ESFJ), the types in this quadrant typically appear confident of their relationship to the world and all it contains.
    The descriptions literally imply nothing about their hobbies.
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  2. #12
    Quetzalcoatl Norexan's Avatar
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    Says ESFP... (inf Ni <- dream function)
    Life Path 4. True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    The most sacred of the duties of a government [is] to do equal and impartial justice to all its citizens." --Thomas Jefferson
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    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  3. #13
    ὁ Σκοτεινός Wunjo's Avatar
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    Hush now kid, you are a sensor so you are not allowed to have any intellectual hobbies. Go take off your t-shirt and be magic mike, otherwise I'll call the intuitive police.

    Note: I really dislike Radiohead so if you continue that joke it's on your peril.
    "The owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the falling of the dusk."
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by popcornbag View Post
    Can estp be nerdy/geeky?
    I always see the NTs come up as the nerdy ones.
    I for one identify and tested as a estp but I'm a huge nerd.
    I know the lore for lord of the rings,game of thrones. I' heavily into dungeons and dragons,magic the gathering.
    I watch and quote movies all the time and I love reading and learning facts about music specifically metal and the bands associated with that genre.
    I listen to mainly death,black,thrash and power metal.
    I want to be a history teacher

    Yet I never see these type things for estp. Could i be typed wrong?
    Your interests aren't math-and-science nerdiness. They're more "aesthetic nerdiness." And when it comes to aesthetics (the love of art and beauty), that falls under the province of S and N equally.

    In his book "Psychological Types," Jung devoted Chapter 3 to analyzing the Dionysian vs. Apollonian dialectic, specifically with regard to aesthetics. He called Sensing and Intuition "the aesthetic types," and he specifically associated Se with the Dionysian aspect and Ni with the Apollonian aspect. (Se-Doms would be ESTP and ESFP, and Ni-Doms would be INTJs and INFJs.) He also associated Si and Ne with aesthetics in other chapters.

    So the nature of your interests could fall equally under N or S. But if you're pretty sure that you are an ESTP, then your interests would be very much in line with the traditional interests of Se-Doms (ESTPs and ESFPs). In fact, I personally would find it hard to imagine a young ESTP nowadays who *doesn't* like "death, black, thrash and power metal."
    Doin' the old folks boogie
    And boogie we will
    'Cause to us the thought's as good as a thrill
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  5. #15
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Your interests aren't math-and-science nerdiness. They're more "aesthetic nerdiness." And when it comes to aesthetics (the love of art and beauty), that falls under the province of S and N equally.

    In his book "Psychological Types," Jung devoted Chapter 3 to analyzing the Dionysian vs. Apollonian dialectic, specifically with regard to aesthetics. He called Sensing and Intuition "the aesthetic types," and he specifically related Se to the Dionysian aspect and Ni to the Apollonian aspect. (Se-Doms would be ESTP and ESFP, and Ni-Doms would be INTJs and INFJs.) He also related Si and Ne to aesthetics in other chapters.

    So the nature of your interests could fall equally under N or S. But if you're pretty sure that you are an ESTP, then your interests would be very much in line with traditional Se-Dom interests. In fact, I personally would find it hard to imagine a young ESTP nowadays who *doesn't* like "death, black, thrash and power metal."
    I'd say that's a misleading take on Jung's perspective. Jung viewed N's as the quintessential artists, and also (secondarily) associated F with art.

    Jung said that Si-doms had a "conception of reality" that was so "illusory" and "irrational" that their best hope for giving the rest of the world a decent glimpse of it was through art — but Jung also said that Si-dom artists were "the exception," with the result that the typical Si-dom "resigns himself to his isolation."

    And although Jung used the word "aesthetic" in connection with Se-doms, he described Se-doms as being connoisseurs of the concrete, whose aesthetic tastes involved "tangible reality" and "the externals of his life" — e.g., fine dining and fashion. "Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it," Jung explained. And what's more, "what comes from inside seems to him morbid and suspect." The Se-dom "dresses well, as befits the occasion; he keeps a good table with plenty of drink for his friends, making them feel very grand, or at least giving them to understand that his refined taste entitles him to make a few demands of them. He may even convince them that certain sacrifices are decidedly worth while for the sake of style."

    And by contrast, Jung said "the artist might be regarded as the normal representative" of the Ni-dom.

    In typing Nietzsche, Jung said that he "must surely be reckoned an intuitive with leanings toward introversion. As evidence of the former we have his pre-eminently intuitive-artistic manner of production."

    In his definition of Fantasy, Jung noted that "Active fantasies are the product of intuition" and also that "active fantasy is the chief mark of the artistic mentality."

    And Jung also associated art and feeling. In his description of a Te-dom, he said that "all those activities that are dependent on feeling will become repressed in such a type — for instance, aesthetic activities, taste, artistic sense, cultivation of friends, etc." And in his discussion of the auxiliary function, Jung explained: "Besides the ... primary function there is [an] ... auxiliary function, ... [and the] resulting combinations present the familiar picture of, for instance, practical thinking allied with sensation, ... artistic intuition selecting and presenting its images with the help of feeling-values, philosophical intuition systematizing its vision into comprehensible thought by means of a powerful intellect, and so on."

  6. #16
    Senior Member cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Type isn't about "must be" and "never does." It's about tendencies and probabilities.

    But I'm guessing you knew that.
    I thought type was about preferences. Tendencies within a type contribute to statistics, thus statistics is the result of a mass of data of individuals, but you can't go in reverse and use statistics to determine an individual's type, as an individual could be more of an outlier. So I agree with @miss fortune that spewing a bunch of statistics is really pretty useless when it comes to an *individual* looking to type themselves. (And this actually assumes one finds the statistics have merit and don't just represent a lot of mistypes).
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #17
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    In The Psychology of CG Jung, his student and colleague, Dr. Jalonde Jacobi writes:

    Jung attaches great importance to the creative activity of fantasy, which he even put into a category of its own, because in his opinion it cannot be subordinated to any of the four basic functions, but partakes of them all.

    He rejects the usual notion that artistic inspiration is limited to the intuitive type, that intuition is the dominant function in all artists. Fantasy is indeed the source of all creative inspiration, but it is a gift that can come to any of the four types.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    I'd say that's a misleading take on Jung's perspective.
    Not at all. If you want, I can give you the quotes from Chapter 3, and also from his descriptions of Sensing ("Sensation" as he calls it) in Chapters 10 and 11. But first, I think we need to clear up a possible source of misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    Jung viewed N's as the quintessential artists, and also (secondarily) associated F with art.
    See, right here is the problem. You're talking about "art," and I'm talking about aesthetics. We're talking about two different things. Art is a subset of aesthetics.

    Jung was talking about Aesthetics: The love of art and the love of beauty. Not just "the arts" or "art" or "the fine arts." Depending on how broadly one defines the term "aesthetics," the arts may only be a small portion of aesthetics.

    For example, in your post you speak dismissively of aesthetics in Se-Doms, as though it doesn't count:

    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    And although Jung used the word "aesthetic" in connection with Se-doms, he described Se-doms as being connoisseurs of the concrete, whose aesthetic tastes involved "tangible reality" and "the externals of his life" — e.g., fine dining and fashion. "Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it," Jung explained. And what's more, "what comes from inside seems to him morbid and suspect." The Se-dom "dresses well, as befits the occasion; he keeps a good table with plenty of drink for his friends, making them feel very grand, or at least giving them to understand that his refined taste entitles him to make a few demands of them. He may even convince them that certain sacrifices are decidedly worth while for the sake of style."
    But that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's a perfect description of "aesthetics." Dressing well, keeping a good table, style, etc. is the very essence of aesthetics. And it's exactly what Jung meant when he said that both N & S are "aesthetic types." Jung was talking about "aesthetics" in exactly the terms you quoted, above: Dressing well, keeping a good table, style, etc. He wasn't talking about "the arts." He was talking about aesthetics.

    The material you quote proves exactly my point: Aesthetics is very much part of the domain of Sensing.

    As I see it, your problem is that you're all hung up on "the fine arts." And I agree with you that "the fine arts" (as represented by Hollywood and New York) are probably heavy on N these days. That reflects the fact that "the fine arts" are big money nowadays--big productions, big staffs, big stakes, big liabilities. I can see where the Ns will have a big representation in such an environment.

    But personally, I'm not talking about "the fine arts," nor was Jung. I'm talking about "aesthetics." The love of art and the love of beauty. Examples:

    There's the aesthetics of cooking fine food (the culinary arts), but there is also the aesthetics of enjoying fine food as well as the aesthetics of knowing how to put out a good spread of food for a family gathering or host a good party for friends. Like that quote from Jung that you offered in your own post.

    There's the aesthetics of brewing a good craft beer, and also the aesthetics of consuming a good craft beer and enjoying it.

    There's the aesthetics of searching for the perfect single malt whiskey, as well as the perfect cigar to go with it. And the aesthetics of providing those things for others.

    There's the aesthetics of sports; certainly sports like figure skating qualify as aesthetic in nature in terms of its beauty and kinetics, both for the athlete and for the spectators. Also, more conventional competition sports could qualify as well, if they were enjoyed for their physicality and kinetics.

    There's the aesthetics of the fashion industry, the make-up industry, and the industry for scented candles and incense.

    And so on. There's the aesthetics of slapstick, of satire, of a good pun, of horror films or action films, and of pornography (see my signature on the subject of pornography.)

    Anyway, here's my point: Jung was talking about "aesthetics" in exactly the terms you quoted, above: Dressing well, keeping a good table, style, etc. He wasn't talking about "the arts." He was talking about aesthetics.

    And he was very clear about: Aesthetics falls under the province of both N and S.

    To sum up: You keep talking about "the arts," but Jung was talking about aesthetics. The two aren't the same thing. And Jung was very clear: Aesthetics falls under the province of both N and S.
    Doin' the old folks boogie
    And boogie we will
    'Cause to us the thought's as good as a thrill
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  9. #19
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I thought type was about preferences. Tendencies within a type contribute to statistics, thus statistics is the result of a mass of data of individuals, but you can't go in reverse and use statistics to determine an individual's type, as an individual could be more of an outlier. So I agree with @miss fortune that spewing a bunch of statistics is really pretty useless when it comes to an *individual* looking to type themselves. (And this actually assumes one finds the statistics have merit and don't just represent a lot of mistypes).
    I don't consider "preference" and "tendency" inconsistent terms, and in the context of the kinds of multifaceted personality clusters that the MBTI and Big Five are tapping into, they manifest themselves in terms of probabilities. And the Step II MBTI is built around the notion that somebody may be an N (for example) with respect to some of the S/N facets, and an S with respect to the others.

    And in any case, separate and apart from the facets complication, it's rarely or never appropriate to characterize a type as someone who always exhibits X characteristic, or who never exhibits Y characteristic.

    So it seems to me that anybody's typing process should essentially consist of something like a points system, where they read about stuff that tends to be characteristic of this preference, or that type, and they see if, when they read about S/N stuff (for example), they find themselves mostly relating more to the stuff on one side or the other.

    And when it comes to figuring out what kind of stuff tends to be more characteristic of N's (for example) and what kind of stuff tends to be more characteristic of S's, the best evidence is statistically significant results from appropriate-size samples.

    Do you disagree with any of that?

    I don't really understand what you mean when you say that "spewing a bunch of statistics is really pretty useless when it comes to an *individual* looking to type themselves."

  10. #20
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Not at all. If you want, I can give you the quotes from Chapter 3, and also from his descriptions of Sensing ("Sensation" as he calls it) in Chapters 10 and 11. But first, I think we need to clear up a possible source of misunderstanding.



    See, right here is the problem. You're talking about "art," and I'm talking about aesthetics. We're talking about two different things. Art is a subset of aesthetics.

    Jung was talking about Aesthetics: The love of art and the love of beauty. Not just "the arts" or "art" or "the fine arts." Depending on how broadly one defines the term "aesthetics," the arts may only be a small portion of aesthetics.

    For example, in your post you speak dismissively of aesthetics in Se-Doms, as though it doesn't count:



    But that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's a perfect description of "aesthetics." Dressing well, keeping a good table, style, etc. is the very essence of aesthetics. And it's exactly what Jung meant when he said that both N & S are "aesthetic types." The material you quote proves exactly my point: Aesthetics is very much the domain of Sensing.

    As I see it, your problem is that you're all hung up on "the fine arts." And I agree with you that "the fine arts" (as represented by Hollywood and New York) are probably heavy on N these days. That reflects the fact that "the fine arts" are big money nowadays--big productions, big staffs, big stakes, big liabilities. I can see where the Ns will have a big representation in such an environment.

    But personally, I'm not talking about "the fine arts," nor was Jung. I'm talking about "aesthetics." The love of art and the love of beauty. Examples:

    There's the aesthetics of cooking fine food (the culinary arts), but there is also the aesthetics of enjoying fine food as well as the aesthetics of knowing how to put out a good spread of food for a family gathering or host a good party for friends. Like that quote from Jung that you offered in your own post.

    There's the aesthetics of brewing a good craft beer, and also the aesthetics of consuming a good craft beer and enjoying it.

    There's the aesthetics of searching for the perfect single malt whiskey, as well as the perfect cigar to go with it. And the aesthetics of providing those things for others.

    There's the aesthetics of sports; certainly sports like figure skating qualify as aesthetic in nature in terms of its beauty and kinetics, both for the athlete and for the spectators. Also, more conventional competition sports could qualify as well, if they were enjoyed for their physicality and kinetics.

    There's the aesthetics of the fashion industry, the make-up industry, and the industry for scented candles and incense.

    And so on. There's the aesthetics of slapstick, of satire, of a good pun, of horror films or action films, and of pornography. (See my signature.)

    Anyway, here's my point: Jung was talking about "aesthetics" in exactly the terms you quoted, above: Dressing well, keeping a good table, style, etc. He wasn't talking about "the arts." He was talking about aesthetics.

    And he was very clear about: Aesthetics falls under the province of both N and S.

    To sum up: You keep talking about "the arts," but Jung was talking about aesthetics. The two aren't the same thing. And Jung was very clear: Aesthetics falls under the province of both N and S.
    I don't disagree that Jung said that Se's (not Si's, tho) were concerned with the "aesthetics" associated with concrete stuff, and I specifically quoted him on that issue.

    But when a typical MBTI type-me subject talks about their interest in the arts (or similar terms), they're almost always (in my experience) talking about the N kind — literature, music, movies, etc. — rather than, e.g., fashion and fine food. And Jung didn't associate the former kind of interest/creativity with Se-doms at all, and in fact, as I noted, he said that Se-doms feel that "what comes from inside" seems "morbid and suspect." And he said Si-doms were theoretically capable of it, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

    And again, by contrast, he said that "active fantasy is the chief mark of the artistic mentality," and that "Active fantasies are the product of intuition."

    And what I'm saying is that I think (do you disagree?) that when Jung refers to the "artistic mentality" that he associates with N, he's using the word "artistic" in essentially the same way most modern people use the term when they refer to someone as a "creative artist," or to someone with an interest in the "arts."

    As to the issue of whether an S may be more likely to be a fashion designer or a chef or an interior designer or a landscaper or etc., I wouldn't say I have much of a take on that, and I wouldn't disagree that if that's true, that would be consistent with Jung's perspective (on Se-doms, but not Si-doms).

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