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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    extraverted nietzche 2.0
    Are you saying that Nietzsche made predictions about the future based on cherry-picking the evidence?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    How do you know his type was ESTJ?
    He took the official test, with his wife, and scored either ISTJ or ESTJ; I'm not sure. I've discussed this with another person who knew him well and studied MBTI. He seemed more extraverted.

    I was just reading this: Jung’s Portrait of the ENTJ / ESTJ Types – IDR Labs
    The way it describes Te is very different from the "Effectiveness" appellation, which calls to mind a paradigm more focused on logistical thinking and strategizing. In this description, Te is less tactical and is extraverted just because its focus is on objective phenomena, phenomena external to the thinker. "Objective," in this case, includes unprovable religious tenets, if they're tradition-based.

    Thinking in general is fed from two sources, firstly from subjective and in the last resort unconscious roots, and secondly from objective data transmitted through sense perceptions.

    Extraverted thinking is conditioned in a larger measure by these latter factors than by the former. judgment always presupposes a criterion ; for the extraverted judgment, the valid and determining criterion is the standard taken from objective conditions, no matter whether this be directly represented by an objectively perceptible fact, or expressed in an objective idea ; for an objective idea, even when subjectively sanctioned, is equally external and objective in origin. Extraverted thinking, therefore, need not necessarily be a merely concretistic thinking it may equally well be a purely ideal thinking, if, for instance, it can be shown that the ideas with which it is engaged are to a great extent borrowed from without, i.e. are transmitted by tradition and education.

    (...)

    So far as the practical thinking of the merchant, the engineer, or the natural science pioneer is concerned, the objective direction is at once manifest. But in the case of a philosopher it is open to doubt, whenever the course of his thinking is directed towards ideas. In such a case, before deciding, we must further enquire whether these ideas are mere abstractions from objective experience, in which case they would merely represent higher collective concepts, comprising a sum of objective facts ; or whether (if they are clearly not abstractions from immediate experience) they may not be derived from tradition or borrowed from the intellectual atmosphere of the time. In the latter event, such ideas must also belong to the category of objective data, in which case this thinking should also be called extraverted.
    That might also be what I was calling his Si before.

    In any case, that Te description seems to fit him, in general, and in the case of his religious-evidence project, it was like he was starting with two disparate objective phenomena (the evidence he was collecting from the natural world, and the religious tenet he accepted from his religious tradition) and trying to mesh them together into a coherent description of reality. Like this:

    In accordance with his definition, we must picture a, man whose constant aim — in so far, of course, as he is a pure type — is to bring his total life-activities into relation with intellectual conclusions, which in the last resort are always orientated by objective data, whether objective facts or generally valid ideas. This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively.
    He wasn't Ni-dominant by any means. He didn't have (or at least didn't express, and I don't believe that he had) personal intuitions about the meaning of religious and metaphysical things. He just wanted intellectual agreement between two different points of view through which he viewed reality.

    Should the repression succeed, it disappears from consciousness and proceeds to unfold a subconscious activity, which runs counter to conscious aims, even producing effects whose causation is a complete enigma to the individual.

    (...)

    There are a few painful examples in science where investigators of the highest esteem, from a profound conviction of the truth and general validity of their formula, have not scrupled to falsify evidence in favour of their ideal. This is sanctioned by the formula; the end justifieth the means. Only an inferior feeling-function, operating seductively and unconsciously, could bring about such aberrations in otherwise reputable men.
    I'm not suggesting that he was deliberately falsifying the scientific process. He took a mental shortcut in this case.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    He took the official test, with his wife, and scored either ISTJ or ESTJ; I'm not sure. I've discussed this with another person who knew him well and studied MBTI. He seemed more extraverted.

    I was just reading this: Jung’s Portrait of the ENTJ / ESTJ Types – IDR Labs
    The way it describes Te is very different from the "Effectiveness" appellation, which calls to mind a paradigm more focused on logistical thinking and strategizing. In this description, Te is less tactical and is extraverted just because its focus is on objective phenomena, phenomena external to the thinker. "Objective," in this case, includes unprovable religious tenets, if they're tradition-based.



    That might also be what I was calling his Si before.

    In any case, that Te description seems to fit him, in general, and in the case of his religious-evidence project, it was like he was starting with two disparate objective phenomena (the evidence he was collecting from the natural world, and the religious tenet he accepted from his religious tradition) and trying to mesh them together into a coherent description of reality. Like this:



    He wasn't Ni-dominant by any means. He didn't have (or at least didn't express, and I don't believe that he had) personal intuitions about the meaning of religious and metaphysical things. He just wanted intellectual agreement between two different points of view through which he viewed reality.



    I'm not suggesting that he was deliberately falsifying the scientific process. He took a mental shortcut in this case.
    I don't have much time right now. But what do you mean by "He seemed more extroverted"?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I don't have much time right now. But what do you mean by "He seemed more extroverted"?
    Likewise; I'll try and get back to this.

    Also, I'm not suggesting that ESTJ is the probable type for your example. I'm saying that I don't think you should rule it out or relegate it to the "highly unlikely" category just based on the idea that it's not considered a very "mystical" type.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Are you saying that Nietzsche made predictions about the future based on cherry-picking the evidence?
    I won't call it "cherry picking evidence" so much as riding a spiritual spaceship on top of Ron Hubbard (?)'s lap, if that makes sense.
    There's no love in fear.
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    Do we want to remind you of something? Yes: the world is good and we belong here.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    He took the official test, with his wife, and scored either ISTJ or ESTJ; I'm not sure. I've discussed this with another person who knew him well and studied MBTI. He seemed more extraverted.

    I was just reading this: Jung’s Portrait of the ENTJ / ESTJ Types – IDR Labs
    The way it describes Te is very different from the "Effectiveness" appellation, which calls to mind a paradigm more focused on logistical thinking and strategizing. In this description, Te is less tactical and is extraverted just because its focus is on objective phenomena, phenomena external to the thinker. "Objective," in this case, includes unprovable religious tenets, if they're tradition-based.



    That might also be what I was calling his Si before.

    In any case, that Te description seems to fit him, in general, and in the case of his religious-evidence project, it was like he was starting with two disparate objective phenomena (the evidence he was collecting from the natural world, and the religious tenet he accepted from his religious tradition) and trying to mesh them together into a coherent description of reality. Like this:



    He wasn't Ni-dominant by any means. He didn't have (or at least didn't express, and I don't believe that he had) personal intuitions about the meaning of religious and metaphysical things. He just wanted intellectual agreement between two different points of view through which he viewed reality.



    I'm not suggesting that he was deliberately falsifying the scientific process. He took a mental shortcut in this case.
    The person you're describing (whatever the personality type) has internally conflicting ideas that he feels he must resolve thus attaining intellectual intuition (i.e., God's method of cognition). If not INTJ, then ENTJ - the same as the person in my OP (I believe). I forgot to add that your posts helped to convince me.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    I won't call it "cherry picking evidence" so much as riding a spiritual spaceship on top of Ron Hubbard (?)'s lap, if that makes sense.
    How was Nietzsche spiritual?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    How was Nietzsche spiritual?
    Just... reading that stuff........

    Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
    Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: ITS OWN will, willeth now the spirit; HIS OWN world winneth the world’s outcast.
    Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.—
    Thus spake Zarathustra. And at that time he abode in the town which is called The Pied Cow.

    The creating body created for itself spirit, as a hand to its will.

    That said, I did not imply Nietzsche was spiritual, rather that he used a certain style found in religious texts. And as a result, both sound nuts.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    Just... reading that stuff........

    Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
    Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: ITS OWN will, willeth now the spirit; HIS OWN world winneth the world’s outcast.
    Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.—
    Thus spake Zarathustra. And at that time he abode in the town which is called The Pied Cow.

    The creating body created for itself spirit, as a hand to its will.

    That said, I did not imply Nietzsche was spiritual, rather that he used a certain style found in religious texts. And as a result, both sound nuts.
    Perhaps it just needs someone to explain it.
    Nietzsche’s three metamorphoses – Philosophy for change

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentwashington View Post
    Just... reading that stuff........

    Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a self-rolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.
    Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: ITS OWN will, willeth now the spirit; HIS OWN world winneth the world’s outcast.
    Three metamorphoses of the spirit have I designated to you: how the spirit became a camel, the camel a lion, and the lion at last a child.—
    Thus spake Zarathustra. And at that time he abode in the town which is called The Pied Cow.

    The creating body created for itself spirit, as a hand to its will.

    That said, I did not imply Nietzsche was spiritual, rather that he used a certain style found in religious texts. And as a result, both sound nuts.
    I know that your point wasn't that it needs someone to explain it, but that it sounds religious, or mystical, and over-the-top with symbols.
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