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View Poll Results: You must obey my rules, but I can ignore or break your rules

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  1. #41
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    Actually, watching the video you linked to, that guy's style of argument/salesmanship and way of semi-F-ishly justifying arguments with tenuous "value" judgements is a style of sales that I've seen a lot in ENTPs in real life. He's really playing it up, like a stereotype of a used car salesman, and he might not be a real ENTP in real life; I don't know. But it's an ENTP-ish tactic.

    LOL That sounds like I'm divulging our secrets. I don't mean it that way. Obviously, not all or necessarily even most ENTPs are going to be that "used car salesman" stereotype. Even a lot of used car salesmen aren't, probably.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    Actually, watching the video you linked to, that guy's style of argument/salesmanship and way of semi-F-ishly justifying arguments with tenuous "value" judgements is a style of sales that I've seen a lot in ENTPs in real life. He's really playing it up, like a stereotype of a used car salesman, and he might not be a real ENTP in real life; I don't know. But it's an ENTP-ish tactic.

    LOL That sounds like I'm divulging our secrets. I don't mean it that way. Obviously, not all or necessarily even most ENTPs are going to be that "used car salesman" stereotype. Even a lot of used car salesmen aren't, probably.
    Just to put it another way:

    I don't think he goes to bed at night and is kept up by thoughts like: "There's really something troubling me about the world, and what it is is that people just don't respect my pop-up ads. Pop-up ads are valuable to people, and I'm only trying to help people. Why don't they get it? Why don't the people do what they know in their hearts is right, and click my pop-up ads?"

    I'm sure he also doesn't see it this way: "It really hurts my feelings when people "hate" on my pop-ups. I put my heart and soul into those. I put a lot of work into them, too. And then people are just *rude*! They say all sorts of unkind things when I flash them on their screens! Why can't people just be nicer to each other?"

    There's nothing F about his argument, imo. It's pseudo-F at best. He's using pathos because it's a tactic that might work. An INFP using pathos in an argument would be more likely to be expressing a strong feeling that they actually have about something, whether it's right or wrong. Even if the INFPs argument was wrong or in some way even dishonest, you could believe that they really felt that way. With the argument in the video, there's no reason to think that the guy really cares one way or another about pop-ups as a moral/ethical issue (which is how he's defending them) or even as a personal issue of hurt feelings or any other emotions.

    The line of reasoning goes more like this: "I WANT more people to buy _____ from me, and I WANT more attention on my site, more visitors, and more contact information from people signing up for my newsletter, because the more traffic my site gets, and the more people's contact info I have, the more potential paying customers I will have out of that. And so, WHY SHOULDN'T I use rhetoric to try to persuade people to visit my site, sign up for my newsletter, and ultimately buy things, and WHY SHOULDN'T I use pathos as an argument in defense of pop-up ads? I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't think I'm taking unfair advantage of anyone. I'm not stealing. I'm just framing the situation in the way that I think best helps me achieve what I want."
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  3. #43
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    Right!
    Because he's operating off of Te, and likely overdriven at that; so the Fi is all the more unconscious, and used to justify their Te perspective, which know the principles of “how to win friends and influence people“. So they're not thinking in terms of being “troubled“ that “they're only trying to help”; thet's just what they tell everyone to again, justify themselves. It's really about “the bottom line”.

    I've leard of the ENTP “salesman” stereotype, but don't know enough of them in real life to say how true it might be. On the Feeling angle, they would have tertiary Fe, which might be more attuned to what people actually say they want. I guess Ne could craft an argument like that because they know it might “sell” with people.
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  4. #44
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    "salesman" stereotype is ESTP, not ENTP.
    But these 2 types both have Ti as aux coginitive function & Fe as third cognitive function. They both are naturally good at sales.

    However, none of them is going to play me I always find it amusing when I notice a sales person can't "read" me like they do with most people.
    "I’m forever near a stereo saying, ‘What the fuck is this garbage?’ And the answer is always the Red Hot Chili Peppers" ~ Nick Cave

  5. #45
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    I've heard the EFP's said to be good salesmen types. It seems any EP type (dominant extraverted perceiving), and I guess because their main world view is just "being" (and in the outer world), rather than making decisions.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Do Fi doms and auxes believe that their rules must be obeyed, but that others' rules can be broken at will?
    Ive grown to think of Fi as being a matter of resolution. The more mature Fi is, the more resolved it is, and the more thought has gone into the particulars of situations-not like a glowing orb, but instead like crysta with many filaments. Ne can help with live and let live, and Se can help with contextual judgement. Often introversion saves one from forcing others to the whims of one's Fi.

    Some Fi rule are very specific to me:
    • I like asparagus with blue cheese
    • I find bright wall colors to be disturbing
    • I like to let potatoes dry up and grow new baby potatoes because I enjoy seeing life regenerate


    Some of my Fi rules seem like they are aligned with Fe generalized norms:
    • dont say mean things
    • dont lie, steal, hurt others
    • in a mixed setting dont draw attention to oneself


    and then there our my rules that I will seek to have others comply with in groups:
    • in a team we treat each other with honesty
    • we work hard and arent lazy
    • we dont throw others under the bus
      If you are in my immediate family or at a meal with me, dont eat cabrito please


    and then there are the rules I have for those closest to me-these are my personal boundaries. WElcome to the inner circle and the work you will need to do if you wish to be a part of it:

    you will respond to me if I make a request of you in a timely fashion
    you will not make jokes about your thoughts on marriage in public
    you will accept that I choose to help those who are less fortunate than me
    you will accept my animals as part of my world
    I like oysters a lot. buy them for me please and Ill be happy
    every so often I will kiss you and you will need to hold me
    you need to help provide boundaries for my children when I am with you
    you need to be certain you treat me with respect when I am with you in front of your family and friends

    and so on...it can be quite particular. You need to follow my rules and in turn I will do my best to follow yours IF I understand what they are.

    In a situation where rules are conflicting, you can either gently edge around the other person's space and respect it or you have to develop Fi resolution in both of your rules sets. Just like in a logical argument where you are both logically incorrect and have to work together point by point to identify the logical disconnect.


    As an example I recently had a conflict with my partner. I didnt have my phone charger while at his home, thus couldnt set my alarm and asked him to set his (Value: a very generic I need your help). He said no thus violating my rule. I became upset, feeling (insert stupid, irrational feeling). The next day he shared that he sleeps very poorly (value: I need to not be disturbed from 5-8 to feel good that day) and that he felt we always take his chargers (value: I want my things respected). I can then choose to respect his values and say nothing, share my values so he has awareness, or attempt to negotiate values. In this case I opt for option two, as his points are valid but I do want him to be aware of my values.

  7. #47
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    I just don't think the guy in the pop-up ad video is using Fi. I think he's using Ti in a convoluted way. If his Fi were being engaged, I think he would come across less act-y. @Eric B, what type do you think that guy is?

    What ubiquitin just posted is more what I think of as Fi/Te.

    Those are some very specific personal rules, @ubiquitin!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by meowington View Post
    "salesman" stereotype is ESTP, not ENTP.
    But these 2 types both have Ti as aux coginitive function & Fe as third cognitive function. They both are naturally good at sales.
    I usually think of "salesman" as one of a few stereotypes of ENTP, as well as "inventor", "debater", "lawyer", "politician", and "Most Popular Math Teacher of the Year, Every Year".

    What would you think of as the prime ENTP stereotype, @meowington?
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    I just don't think the guy in the pop-up ad video is using Fi. I think he's using Ti in a convoluted way. If his Fi were being engaged, I think he would come across less act-y. Eric B, what type do you think that guy is?

    What ubiquitin just posted is more what I think of as Fi/Te.

    Those are some very specific personal rules, @ubiquitin!
    Sounds like TeNi

    First two minutes:

    "I know I'm right".

    "If you don't use popups, you are an idiot".

    Very "directive" (ENTP is "informative"; i.e. not quite as critical; has more of a "light and airiness" to them). So he's definitely an "In Charge" (Choleric) type (EST/ENJ) and seems more iNtuitive; but tertiary Se will also figure.
    Ti will be 5th place "backup"; making it possibly prominent, but still on the "shadow" side; that is why it would come off as "convoluted" (the exact term Beebe used in his book to describe likely INTJ Jung's apparent 6th place Ti). Its purpose is to support the dominant Te (which is coming off confident and effective), and Fi, likewise is supporting it, by him appealing to what he "knows" you must need. ubiquitin's example would be a more mature or conscious Fi (though it does start to get more "directive" on the bottom; what type is @ubiquitin?); the popup guy's Fi would be inferior; all the more so with Te likely overdriven; so Fi is still unconscious (and perhaps even less visible than backup Ti), but still the ego-syntonic flipside of Te; hence coloring the appeal to others' underlying needs (whether they think they want it or not).

    Of course, the actual person could for all we know be someone reading a script (so yes, an ENTP might make himself talk this way, but then many other types could as well), but that script is definitely written by some kind of In Charge type, but it does seem to come "naturally" for him.
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  10. #50
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    Sounds like my ESTP boyfriend

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