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  1. #81

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    Have barely been on TypoC for the past week and missed this. No questions beyond stating that I'm a fan of your work and am glad that you're continuing with it, particularly relative to cognitive functions and neuroimaging!
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  2. #82
    awwwwwwwk Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I have a question for @AncientSpirits. Are there ways we can consciously engage and use certain functions? In particular, I'm interesting in knowing more how to access that "Christmas Tree" pattern for extraverted intuition that you speak of.
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  3. #83
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    I have a question for @AncientSpirits. Are there ways we can consciously engage and use certain functions? In particular, I'm interesting in knowing more how to access that "Christmas Tree" pattern for extraverted intuition that you speak of.
    I echo this question. I hit a point a number of years ago where I was in a bit of an Fi/Ti loop. For some reason, for a period of a few months I was in a funk where my mind would spin around, I wasn't very decisive, and overall just got a bit frustrated with myself. I wasn't as product as I normally was and had a hard time making decisions. My function tests were scoring differently. I came to the conclusion that for some odd or unknown reason I hadn't been exercising Te as much as normal. I tried looking at books to see what you can do to use the function more and made a concerted effort on it. This was over a period of several months again. None of it worked. What worked was getting out an engaging with people in person, on the phone, etc. - just getting out there more. At the time, I was working from home and spending a lot of time in my house not interacting with others which had been pretty unusual in my career up to that point. When I got out there, that broke me out of it and everything went back to normal. @AncientSpirits have you seen anything like that before?

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  4. #84
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post

    I'm in the dom+aux camp, with the 3rd and 4th functions necessarily reflecting one's opposite type. Why am I in that camp? The reasons are multiple, and mostly practical, and I use it as a prescriptive model. That is, people are happier and healthier this way.
    That's kind of what I have thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post

    To determine E or I:
    E score = Se + Ne + Te + Fe
    I score = Si + Ni + Ti + Fi
    Whichever is higher wins out. So I'm following Jung's viewpoint here.

    Then I look for which PAIR of functions, out of the 8 "allowed" by type, has the highest score.
    So maybe Ni+Fe is the highest pairing, or maybe Ne+Ti is the highest or what not.

    The assessment scores this way because I tried several scoring methods and this came closest to matching declared type. Maybe not the best reason, but it works, and is essentially a hybrid of what's discussed above.
    I think if you just look at the top two functions, odds are they may test close to each other and so it seems difficult at times to reliably get data on which one is dominant and which one is auxilary. So based on the introvert/extravert preference, do you order the top 2 as to which is dominant and which is auxilary?

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post
    Finally, when I work with people one-on-one, I give a bit of leeway. For example, by definition, ENFP is minimally Ne + Fi. But beyond that, most adults have several more moderately-develop functions. For introverts, I find 3 introverted functions and 1 or 2 extraverted functions are typical; vice versa for extraverts. So an ENFP might be Ne + Fi, with Fe and Te, plus some Si. But I've met some ENFPs who are Ne + Fi, with Fe and Se, or Te and Se, plus some Si. Or whatever. BTW, I find those less-usual ENFPs tend lead lives that are not so well "sorted", but are perhaps more interesting.... I use this model not because I believe it's true, but because it's a practical way to characterize and work with a person. To work with the ENFP "as if" Te or Fe or Se or whatever is also developed, even if at a deep psychical level, it's not true.
    That is certainly fascinating. Also makes sense.

    I must admit you mentioned Survival Games Personalities Play - you called it a masterpiece compared to Beside Ourselves. Beside Ourselves resonated better with me. Maybe I will have to take a look at the other book. I have both of them. I believe I also have your book on multiple intelligences .

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  5. #85
    Softserve Ice Cream Agent Washington's Avatar
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    @AncientSpirits

    dsjfhhj;l kj Is it possible for one function associated with one brain region to compensate for another function associated with another brain region? Eg. Using Ne to compensate for Fe, especially with atypical developments such as Asperger's.

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  6. #86
    Senior Member Turi's Avatar
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    I've read the thread, and I feel I already know the answer - however, I'd love it to be practically crystalised for me:

    You don't necessarily subscribe to the Harold Grant cognitive function model, that the majority of the typology community (online, at least) subscribes to - i.e, INTJ as Ni-Te-Fi-Se, rather you see it as Ni-Te and then the rest as practically being up in the air - a case by case basis thing - have I got this correct?

    I'm trying to get a clear understanding of your point of view with regards to the tertiary function being in the same direction as the dominant function, because I'm noticing professionals like Peter Geyer oppose this, and are more of the believe the tertiary function is just say, F, in an INTJ, rather than Fi or Fe, etc.
    I realise you've already practically covered this but I just want to know your position on the direction of the tertiary function 'officially', so to speak.

    Do you see any validity in people attempting to type themselves via tertiary function at all?
    Do you believe the tertiary function even exists, rather than perhaps there being two auxiliary functions?

    One thing I would absolutely love the input of a professional on, is this:

    How can it be, that two people - say, INFJ and INFP - can share no similarities according to 'cognitive functions', yet, to get INFx results in any tests, they have to be selecting practically the same answers - ergo, there simply have to be similarities.
    It makes no sense to me, that the two would be worlds apart, sharing no functions in common, when these people are clearly similar enough to both score INFx results.

    If you've got time (and I'm sure you haven't) - I'd love to hear your thoughts on this article:
    https://www.capt.org/research/articl...Vol69_0109.pdf

    I know you've likely read it before, so I'm kind of hoping you'll already have some thoughts formed, I don't want to chew up too much of your time.


    An idea for future Neuroscience of Personality 2.0 - can your machine scan the N2pc region of the brain?
    N2pc - Wikipedia

    To me, this sounds like a region, or thing (not particularly hip to brain.. terms..) that would be directly related to the perceiving functions in some fashion and is worthy of some real exploration.


    Thanks for reading and feel free to not respond to anything you don't want to.

  7. #87
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @AncientSpirits
    My place in the Enneagram was harder to figure. I took an assessment in college and scored “1” as highest, which concerned me. A “1” has legs into 4 and 7, and I a saw the 4 space as both my creative side and unpleasant emotionally.
    Your 4 creativity shows and you've kept 4 as a wing. Has your relationship to 4 feeling emotionally unpleasant evolved over time? What are your thoughts about the concept that humans are, at base, emotional beings (even T-types ) who rationalize, as opposed to rational beings?

    When developing Socialbot (Socialbot Central), I drew upon knowledge of type and favored language. I considered both favorite words and certain usage structures inspired by NLP’s list of “meta-violations”. For example, it seems TP types are prone to “missing referential index” while FJ types are prone to “casual violations”.
    Would you give examples of what "missing referential index" and "casual violations" are, please?

    While I appreciate folks working on new ways to analyze and label people, the value is in the applications, in coordinate between persons. If more effort was put into understanding how to coordinate, I think Type would gain some prestige and type enthusiasts would also be stretched to really learn to use Type.
    This. So much this. My questions are an attempt at learning from another view point, seeing where my models are lacking and where they have merit.

    However, my experience has been that instead of listening, engaging in discussion, and learning from one another, what happens is an almost automatic defensiveness of one's perspective. I'm guilty of that defensiveness and am trying to be more aware of it. Also, I think that understanding one another has gotten more difficult as our communities grow and change because communication is based on a lot of assumptions about common experiences and cultural norms.

    What are your thoughts on how people can better coordinate?


    Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions.
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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #88
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    Dario, I find your argument (using the apples) about trait theory to be lacking. Psychologists have moved way beyond the simple description of personality and are tackling deeper questions about personality by applying (among other things) the study of systems to the study of psychology. For example: DeYoung, C. G. (2015). Cybernetic Big Five Theory. Journal of Research in Personality.

    The problem with your apple metaphor is that when someone takes scientific issue with your approach, it isn't just a matter of "Let's categorize x" vs. "let's better understand how this thing interacts with a larger system". It is "I doubt that X is a real thing at all" vs., well, taking your word for it I guess? You pooh-pooh the approach of using statistics and the FFM to study personality in this thread. However, would you agree that it is important to have a clear ability to identify an apple before you can rigorously study the role of an apple in a larger system? If you fail to rigorously define what you are studying (an apple), then maybe you aren't studying what you think you are studying at all. Maybe that object you are studying is really a pear. Or maybe it's just a rock. Or maybe its an apple but it's rotten and filled with worms!

    When a person comes in to wear your EEG cap, in order for you to claim that the voltages you record mean something besides, well, just voltages, there must be something real and independent of the voltages for you to point to. That is, the voltages cannot be the sole evidence for this other thing; the other thing must have some foundation and validity apart from your EEG data.

    What evidence can you point to, outside of your EEG data, that supports sorting people according to cognitive functions (i.e., the interaction of preferences) and that isn't as well explained (or better explained) by the simple addition of their preferences? On balance, which approach (multiplicative vs additive) explains more observations with greater parsimony?

  9. #89
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    ^^Who created an account in December of 2013 only to post one time today? I was about to call dupe and then noticed the join date. I'm still calling dupe, because how would some random inactive user know Dario is here right now? Unless someone follows him on social media and is too cowardly to ask him these with a name and face attached. Peculiar indeed.

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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystal Winter Dream View Post
    I have a few typology related questions now.

    So I have noticed there is a significant struggle in defining feeling/ethics functions properly. How do you distinguish Fe vs. Fi?

    Speaking of MBTI with other forms of typology, do you feel Enneagram can fill in some of personality gaps of MBTI? Many MBTI types follow this particular idea but I noticed how there is variations among how this is based on enneagram. While they are that type, they may not meet the exact usual view of the said type.

    Do you feel there is any way typology assessments can improve how they assess a type?

    Do you think there is a real use of typology outside of being an introspective tool?

    Where do you think the future of personality psychology is going?

    and for a simpler question: Do you drink soda? if so what is your favorite kind?
    Almost missed this one!

    I tend to look for whole-type first, then go back and confirm (or change) using various models, including Fe vs Fi when needed, though the functions always occur within the context of the whole type. I also keep in mind that in some key ways, there's no Fe or Fi, there's just Feeling in either an introverted or extraverted context and style.

    For example, I'm introduced to Dan. I go to sort at the 16 types level. Dan strikes me as Composer Producer (aka ISFP). There are distinct themes for each type, and noting those helps, and I just have a lot of practical experience with type to do this (and a few folks reading this may also have). I will do some checks at the temperament and interaction styles level. Improviser (Artisan/SP) fits best, great, but Catalyst (Idealist/NF) is a very close second. And hmm, interaction style isn't so clear. Might be Behind the Scenes. Might also be Get Things Going. So ESFP, INFP etc might be possible. Then after some interactions, he proves free to express his opinions, share stuff about himself, etc. Hmm, so Fi or Fe? Could he be ESFJ or ENFJ? But when I look at the these hypotheses, I look for a best-fit--a triangulation--amongst the models. I do some micro-pinging of keywords and ask some questions. It turns out he's usually pretty reticent to share about himself with most people and needs a lot of alone time, but once he's cozied up to someone and feels that person is trustworthy, which is rare, he's willing to be vulnerable. So my experience with him is atypical. I also notice he engages in a quick listen-act cycle, which is typical of ISFPs. Other ISFP themes continue to show themselves and I confirm dominant Feeling for an introvert with auxiliary Sensing to balance it.

    ----------

    Typology assessments can improve how they assess type by
    a) their creators and users taking them less seriously,
    b) using more sophisticated forms of assessment, such as interactive simulations
    c) drawing upon multiple assessment methods that offer complementary data points

    ----------

    Is there a real use of typology outside of being an introspective tool? For sure. Teamwork for one. Improving one's skills when interacting with others, such as when teaching or selling. I think a person can use type without being that introspective about it.

    ----------

    Just like now, personality psychology as several likely futures:
    -- continuation of trait-based approaches
    -- use of brain imaging to profile personality
    -- cognitive testing, such as sending people through scenarios and looking at their style
    -- genetic testing to target likely heritable personality traits
    -- dynamic systems models of body and mind
    -- body-based and movement-based systems
    -- renewed focus on hormones and neurotransmitters, in a less pop-psychology way
    -- a renewed focus on consciousness in its various forms, as a lens on personality
    -- artificially intelligence systems taking in tons of data and coming up with their own categories.

    While we might think of some of these as potentially more scientific that others, each by itself has limited approaches. Like Godel, I believe human nature cannot be entirely formalized (entirely defined or circumscribed using a symbol system), so there will always be a value to more qualitative methods, and the frameworks and methods used will vary by application. A sports trainer will likely want a more body-based framework than a computer science teacher, who might look to use cognitive testing or such.

    ----------

    I don't drink soda, except for soda water with bitters and lime.
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