User Tag List

First 31112131415 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 148

  1. #121
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    Nuture or nature for type? Is type genetic? Environmental impact in the womb? Early childhood (6 and younger)? How do so all this?
    The Minnesota Twin Family Study on identical twins raised apart suggests that MBTI personality type preferences are 40-60 percent inherited. Same for Big Five. So nature and nurture both play a role. I'd go so far as to say 40-60 percent is very high for something so complex, a testament to the relevance of personality. What's weird is that even very specific life choices such as the kind of car a twin drives, etc also tend to be identical at a far higher rate than chance! I'm sorry I cannot immediately find a good link to this. There's quite a bit on the Internet floating around about it.

    In my brain imaging data, I see that type plays a similarly significant role in brain wiring, though career must necessarily be part of the picture too. I've been gathering data from a colleague in India who uses my EEG protocol, and culture seems to play a role too. Indian graduate students at least seem to have more activity and wiring in the left temporal region, and less prefrontal, than their American counterparts. So they seem to be more detailed-oriented and perhaps less proactive in their affairs. I have 20+ folks from the UK too. They CLEARLY have more F4 wiring than their American counterparts. F4 is the right frontal region that aids abstract language use including metaphor, concepts and categories, humor, and probably poetry as well. Hmm. Not a surprise.
    Likes SearchingforPeace, Peter Deadpan liked this post

  2. #122
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    60

    Default

    I've mentioned "brain wiring" a number of times. I don't mention this in "Neuroscience of Personality". I do go into it in 2 other places:
    -- "Our Brains in Color" booklet
    -- this one hour video

    Here's a page out of the booklet:


  3. #123
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    60

    Default

    FYI, Today is my last day for this AMA, so now's your chance!

  4. #124
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4

    Default

    I do have one more question. Or a few related ones.

    You have mentioned your interest in personality models as therapeutic tools. I am often unimpressed with what passes for "therapeutic use" of MBTI on internet forums for a number of reasons, but foremost among them is that the way people appear to use MBTI ideas (and this is especially true for discussions that involve "the functions" or "stacks") is to latch onto whatever ideas "seem true", attempt to fit their problems into the current internet memes surrounding MBTI (such as "function loops", which has already been mentioned in this thread), and then looking for solutions that are premised on the "folk psychology" being true. To be clear, I don't see the problem with anyone speculating and introspecting based on internet-MBTI. It can be fun to imagine and wonder and conjecture. The problem, as I see it, is that often times function jargon impedes rather than facilitates self-discovery because it asks individuals to understand a system (of questionable truth value) and then fit themselves into that system rather than asking individuals to understand themselves. It reminds me a bit of Scientology, for example, in the sense that Scientology also markets itself as a therapeutic program, but whose underpinning may only have a, shall I say, weak relationship with reality. MBTI internet forums already had a brush with a strange, cult-y, abusive group in the past (the podlair people), so it's not much of a stretch to compare aspects of MBTI internet culture with aspects of Scientology.

    What is your take on the memetic churn of internet MBTI forums/culture and the benefit or harm of questionable ideas being pursued for therapeutic use? Is it reasonable to expect untrained or "lay" people to be able to use therapeutic tools effectively? What do you think is the proper scope of beneficial therapeutic use of the MBTI and similar ideas? What are the dangers you see? Do you think it is dangerous to present MBTI conjectures as facts?

  5. #125
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    SEI Fe
    Posts
    7,994

    Default

    My parents are both Te and Fi (ESTJ dad, ENFP mom) and me and my sister are Fe and Ti (me SFJ, sister INTP) so we all share Si and Ne in some order but me and my sister swapped judging axes.

  6. #126
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/so
    Socionics
    EIE None
    Posts
    6,900

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientSpirits View Post
    The Minnesota Twin Family Study on identical twins raised apart suggests that MBTI personality type preferences are 40-60 percent inherited. Same for Big Five. So nature and nurture both play a role. I'd go so far as to say 40-60 percent is very high for something so complex, a testament to the relevance of personality. What's weird is that even very specific life choices such as the kind of car a twin drives, etc also tend to be identical at a far higher rate than chance! I'm sorry I cannot immediately find a good link to this. There's quite a bit on the Internet floating around about it.

    In my brain imaging data, I see that type plays a similarly significant role in brain wiring, though career must necessarily be part of the picture too. I've been gathering data from a colleague in India who uses my EEG protocol, and culture seems to play a role too. Indian graduate students at least seem to have more activity and wiring in the left temporal region, and less prefrontal, than their American counterparts. So they seem to be more detailed-oriented and perhaps less proactive in their affairs. I have 20+ folks from the UK too. They CLEARLY have more F4 wiring than their American counterparts. F4 is the right frontal region that aids abstract language use including metaphor, concepts and categories, humor, and probably poetry as well. Hmm. Not a surprise.
    I have adopted identical twin teenage sons. One is clearly a INTP. The other is clearly a ESFJ. They clearly are complimentary in their types, so it seems that JCF stacking clear. It seems that prenatal issues created two distinct personalities, but with the same functions. Their personalties were evident from the NICU, born very premature.

    So, I wonder if genetically the stack might be set in genetics, but not the order.
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

    “It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.”

    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays

  7. #127
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OkNo View Post
    I do have one more question. Or a few related ones.

    You have mentioned your interest in personality models as therapeutic tools. I am often unimpressed with what passes for "therapeutic use" of MBTI on internet forums for a number of reasons, but foremost among them is that the way people appear to use MBTI ideas (and this is especially true for discussions that involve "the functions" or "stacks") is to latch onto whatever ideas "seem true", attempt to fit their problems into the current internet memes surrounding MBTI (such as "function loops", which has already been mentioned in this thread), and then looking for solutions that are premised on the "folk psychology" being true. To be clear, I don't see the problem with anyone speculating and introspecting based on internet-MBTI. It can be fun to imagine and wonder and conjecture. The problem, as I see it, is that often times function jargon impedes rather than facilitates self-discovery because it asks individuals to understand a system (of questionable truth value) and then fit themselves into that system rather than asking individuals to understand themselves. It reminds me a bit of Scientology, for example, in the sense that Scientology also markets itself as a therapeutic program, but whose underpinning may only have a, shall I say, weak relationship with reality. MBTI internet forums already had a brush with a strange, cult-y, abusive group in the past (the podlair people), so it's not much of a stretch to compare aspects of MBTI internet culture with aspects of Scientology.

    What is your take on the memetic churn of internet MBTI forums/culture and the benefit or harm of questionable ideas being pursued for therapeutic use? Is it reasonable to expect untrained or "lay" people to be able to use therapeutic tools effectively? What do you think is the proper scope of beneficial therapeutic use of the MBTI and similar ideas? What are the dangers you see? Do you think it is dangerous to present MBTI conjectures as facts?
    A really great question. For the most part, I share your concern.

    Many clinical psychologists say they find little use in using Type, or at least the MBTI instrument, and would likely say that about Five Factor Model and such as well, though that's a guess. In some areas like careers or marriage counseling, I can see the benefit because bringing preferences into conscious awareness is a more natural fit. There, we're aiming to empower the person to make their own choices and/or engage in perspective shifting on their own. In contrast, in a psychotherapy session, the issues are often deep-seated and emotional in nature, beyond the scope of Type per se, though shadow work etc may be relevant. A number of type experts like Linda Berens and Eve Delunas have PhDs in Marriage and Family Therapy (MFT), so they can speak much better than I can. Personally, I never attempt any kind of therapeutic process with people beyond offering some advice to a friend or doing a brain imaging session, which they understand is meant to be informative not therapeutic. It's not my area, and I follow the maxim, "first, do no harm". With regard to the 8 cognitive processes and all the nuance with it, well, that's beyond most people's interest; if I were to suggest a model, it would be temperament. It can be kept simple and it gets at needs and values. Connecting a person back to his or her essential needs has clearer therapeutic value. On the therapist side, they often know a host of models and techniques. I think therapists can benefit from knowing Type. When there's a natural fit between therapist and client, such as INFJ-INFJ, they may share blindspots. And when there's a big difference, such as INFJ-ESTJ, the therapist may wonder how to best engage and retain the client. Type can help there, not to say anything specific to the client, but to improve the therapist's other favorite tools.

    I've looked at brain activity as therapists and coaches work with clients. I did this with Andrea Isaacs and 6 of her clients. We did 1 hour baseline EEG sessions. Then she did 1-hour therapy sessions (with me in the corner at the EEG monitor). And finally, we did follow ups the day after to see how well the client was able to evoke the resources still helped "install" for them the day (or two) before. I've done similar stuff in Prague and San Diego. EEG fluctuates and shows meaningful (relevant) changes during therapy sessions. I talked about those in detail in workshops and in "Our Brains in Color".

    Like most of the folks who use Type in a professional capacity, I don't participate in the MBTI forums and online culture. While many folks are well-meaning, my time is better spent interacting with other professionals, doing research, and so forth. Also, there are some significant holes in the knowledge base amongst online communities, such as the existence of the MBTI Users Manual, CAPT and the MILO database, APTi.com, and so forth. From brief perusal over the years, it seems there's often tremendous speculation about topics like IQ and type without knowing the topic has already been researched and published.

    From what I gathered, Jung took his ethical responsibilities as a therapist very seriously yet he didn't take his tools that seriously. He worked at a high epistemological level, well beyond where most people are. Only recently, as I've read more into Jung, delved into altered states of consciousness, and spent more time reading Peter Geyer' stuff, have I understand how Jung thought about things.

    For "lay" persons, it can be helpful at times to know about basic therapeutic concepts like projection, so long as they stick to applying those tools to themselves. Isabel Myers' original two goals were to help people find satisfying careers and bring peace to the world through understanding. David Keirsey warned about the Pygmalion Project (the inclination to try to mold others to be like us, which is doomed). Type gives us a lens and language to actualize these goals. There are many tools that help with those goals. And if Type is being used otherwise, I'm unsure of its purpose. Perhaps it's most visible when someone bringing out Type in a heated spat with a loved-one. I literally have never done that. Very disrespectful, in my opinion. If Type helps you be more present, to build trust and respect with others, great. And when a relationship is strong, it can make for some fun conversations about differences. In all fairness, there does seem to be a "Type addict" phase that may occur naturally and people can move past. And out of compassion, I try to see how a misuse -- or simply, over-zealousness -- is part of a person's journey of discovery and growth using Type as a kind of mandala. So the person who goes into developing a new theory or whatever is simply trying, perhaps unconsciously, to internalize the model and somehow grow from that.

    I believe a person can hurt themselves in a bad relationship by using Type. What I mean is, Type becomes a reason to stay in the relationship by explaining away genuine issues and incompatibilities as mere personality differences. If your partner is hitting you, that's a red flag to leave, not a mere indicator of dysfunctional extraverted Sensing (or whatever). And there are some insane people out there. M Scott Peck said, based on his years as a therapist, that perhaps 20% of the population is dominated by psychopathy, though often they are still functional, and of course people can move beyond that. Many people as young adults have some kind of episode. Just stretch that out over years. I say this as a warning when trying to engage in amateur therapy.
    Likes Turi liked this post

  8. #128
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    MBTI
    NiFi
    Enneagram
    3w4 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEI4 Ni
    Posts
    9,288

    Default

    Thank you for your responses to my previous questions @AncientSpirits.

    I appreciate Eastern Philosophy as well. I try to mix both into my mind. I mean since I do live in America, I do read more western ultimately by chance more.

    Dogs was the correct answer, but I'll give you partial credit for supporting evidence. (Some cats are just too cute to pass up though)

    And thank you for the other responses.


    Given you may not have much time, here are some more.. I'll get right to it.

    1. So as someone who may be struggling to find their auxiliary function.. in my case I believe it's Fe or Te.. think of any ways to resolve that? I don't like finding out one's type by simply the lack of doing.. (behavioral).. which you might agree with (since this is cognition after all).

    2. When meeting your INFJ and INTJ test subjects in general , did you notice a stark difference in their personalities?

    3. Given you were/are (excuse me for my ignorance) a college professor, did you see a use through the UC system? (I live in California, but in the Northern area) I might of thinking of transferring to one of their schools when I get back in college. You seemed rather upset with the staff there if I read you right.

    4. Did you or will you study dream states of types as well? (kind of esoteric maybe, but will you.. if this excited a search/hypothesis within you make sure to credit Forever from Typology Central Lol)

  9. #129
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/so
    Socionics
    EIE None
    Posts
    6,900

    Default

    Thank you for all your responses here, Dario.

    If nothing else, you may have opened many here to the understanding of the enormous and rich world studying typology and introduced some interesting resources.

    Having watched your Google talk a few years ago, it is disheartening to think that you are no longer teaching. So many academics are very boring and counterproductive to learning, while I suspect you greatly inspired and enlightened your students.

    Thank you for all your efforts and I look forward to your continued production of great resources.
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

    “It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.”

    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays
    Likes Peter Deadpan liked this post

  10. #130
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    1. So as someone who may be struggling to find their auxiliary function.. in my case I believe it's Fe or Te.. think of any ways to resolve that? I don't like finding out one's type by simply the lack of doing.. (behavioral).. which you might agree with (since this is cognition after all).

    2. When meeting your INFJ and INTJ test subjects in general , did you notice a stark difference in their personalities?

    3. Given you were/are (excuse me for my ignorance) a college professor, did you see a use through the UC system? (I live in California, but in the Northern area) I might of thinking of transferring to one of their schools when I get back in college. You seemed rather upset with the staff there if I read you right.

    4. Did you or will you study dream states of types as well? (kind of esoteric maybe, but will you.. if this excited a search/hypothesis within you make sure to credit Forever from Typology Central Lol)
    1. I would bring in another model, either temperament (notably for NF and NT types) or interaction styles (notably for SJ and SP types).

    2. Yeah, I meet a fair number of INFJs and INTJs. What stands out is a difference in temperament. The concerns, values, needs, etc for each are quite different, even at odds.

    3. I'm a Senior Lecturer in Anthropology, though I now mainly teach Computing once a year. Mostly, I left teaching, though I love it, do the administrators and their politics. "Staff" is actually the secretaries, juniors, technicians and so forth who make the day-to-day operation possible. They are almost entirely lovely folks of nearly unlimited patience. The UC is pretty good, particularly at UCLA, because the students are from the top of the high school system and many of the faculty are doing interesting stuff, even if they can be fairly biased (north campus) or boring (south campus).

    4. I haven't, and I probably won't. There's a lot of research by others already on this topic. What begs more attention is the impact of psychedelics, particularly entheogens, on the brain. UCLA is actually an exciting place for that, what with the newly approved MDMA studies, among others. You can see this neat overview of the brain on LSD here:
    Because Science - For the first time ever, scientists...
    This isn't an area I work in; very competent people are already doing that (legally).
    Instead, I've done some imaging of folks on DMT and 5MeO-DMT, where people look like they are asleep and from a novice's viewpoint, might be dreaming, but in fact their brains are experiencing something entirely different. That said, I probably won't get too much into this, more as a little side thing, because you have to travel to do the research, and the bar to get accepted into the Psychedelic Sciences conference is incredibly high.
    Likes Forever liked this post

Similar Threads

  1. Cognitive Processes Test (Dario Nardi's 48 Question Test)
    By Mondo in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 675
    Last Post: 05-02-2019, 10:20 AM
  2. Dario Nardi's Neuroscience of Personality
    By Seymour in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 210
    Last Post: 11-26-2017, 07:39 PM
  3. Video: New Dario Nardi Interview
    By highlander in forum Typology Videos and RSS Feeds
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-12-2015, 10:55 PM
  4. IxTP + INFJ = INTJ (Dario Nardi Interviews "Remix")
    By RaptorWizard in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-09-2014, 05:17 PM
  5. Dario Nardi on Reddit
    By 011235813 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-28-2013, 12:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO