• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[MBTI General] Is Altruism Foolish?

stoic

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Messages
23
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
954
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I was leaning towards the idea that people make mistakes and are impulsive, and it's easy to believe in leading people towards what feel like more favourable ways of living life and acting in the world, which I know well.

But it's also easy to get trapped into high-minded ideas about what would be best for a person, and not looking at myself while doing so, bringing that awkward detachment from engaging with life.

In essence, don't stress too much about whether people are ignorant or succumbing to temptations or etc..; there's more information than ever in a time where people are less equipped to use it. Daily irritations with the arrogance and pettiness of those around us, while also being ourselves part of that arrogance and pettiness de temps en temps.

It's a..nuance and a flimsy one at that. Act in one way and impose upon others your lessons which may be for their benefit, or maybe leave it and let them sort it out for themselves (it's their life afterall). To say it's contextual is a gross reductionism, but it's the only one language allows.

We can have lasting impacts on one another, regardless of what theories about people we subscribe to. It's phenomenological & to some extent I don't know if anyone has ever hurt me so much that I should drop my unravalling's on them because I believe it will be a path to giving them a better life in some form or another.

It's highly ironic (in the most paranoid sense) to attempt to call to light the ideas of introspection, only to follow it's extremes and find the limitations of rationality staring you in the face. And come back to ancient intuitions from childhood, un-abstracted by the trapped memories of time.

We are scum and we are saints. Often both at the same time; that's paradox for you.

This is much better articulated. It would seem that your paradox can be applied to everything. Much like the concept of relativism, no matter what we do or believe we'll always be a victim to our own subjective. To believe a certain path is righteous for yourself is very well and fine. Like you said, it's when you look to conceptualize someone else's path to righteousness, where lies the trouble. So then I'd suppose Fe is foolish if you have any bias or predicate on what is righteous for a person or community since there is no objective truth. From a non-philosophical standpoint adhering to communal righteousness creates that bias and expectancy for the people. In that way, we could believe in a collective righteous moral code. Do we help people abide with acceptance to that for their happiness? Take the victim mentality of the post-modern era. If you met someone who claimed to be oppressed by society. How would you propose a solution to relieve them from feeling victimized? Or, would you let it be?
 

stoic

New member
Joined
Sep 25, 2017
Messages
23
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
954
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't relate. I'm an egoist, not an altruist. If I help someone, it's because I'm feeling generous. I don't think to myself, "I want to help some people." I'm still a dominant Fe user.

Fe is about the depersonalization of ethics. It has nothing to do with being altruistic. Take my case, for example I am an Fe user but I see altruism as evil. If your question is, is altruism stupid, then yes it absolutely is. Fe in itself isn't. Fe users are perfectly capable of being egocentric and uncaring of others.

If you abstain to personal core values, then I would suppose you'd be quite more egocentric. Rather, your surely more focused on practical matters of assisting people. It's a valid point. Undoubtedly this topic is probably more applicable to altruists rather than the wider spectrum of Fe, so it deserves an edit.

d737bf3146fe1bcd8f47428ce2fd1017.jpg

From your standpoint, what's stupid about altruism then?
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
This is much better articulated. It would seem that your paradox can be applied to everything. Much like the concept of relativism, no matter what we do or believe we'll always be a victim to our own subjective. To believe a certain path is righteous for yourself is very well and fine. Like you said, it's when you look to conceptualize someone else's path to righteousness, where lies the trouble. So then I'd suppose Fe is foolish if you have any bias or predicate on what is righteous for a person or community since there is no objective truth. From a non-philosophical standpoint adhering to communal righteousness creates that bias and expectancy for the people. In that way, we could believe in a collective righteous moral code. Do we help people abide with acceptance to that for their happiness? Take the victim mentality of the post-modern era. If you met someone who claimed to be oppressed by society. How would you propose a solution to relieve them from feeling victimized? Or, would you let it be?

That's the rub, isn't it? What would be the context, the relation, to the other?

And there's the answer.

Besides, it's not entirely internal, our bodies are of great value to us and we cannot escape our form. But, they don't answer any questions of why they should be, which might always (perhaps necessarily) be vague and ineffable: the great Other of reality.

The issue is that we can't know that there is no objectivity.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Two-Headed Boy
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,603
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
As an INFJ, I see myself surrounded by ignorance. Rather, I see people who lack enlightenment. People succumb to desire and temptation. People lost in their beliefs and pursuits. I've found to live with personal indifference by vow instead of collective virtue seems to be the only viable lifestyle for peacekeeping. Problems with our disposition to status quo and present incompetence seem to be the drivers of conflict and insecurity. I can understand feeling complacent with this knowledge or deciding to attribute it to your own personal growth. Is it foolish to want to help these people become enlightened? Much like the bodhisattva, may our mission be to enlighten others to void suffering. These people are already set on their ways, is it even possible? Is it a waste of time? Are we to only speak to those open and interested? Give me your thoughts.


I feel like you have to start with yourself before you can help others. It's important to have your own house in order. The other way doesn't work; it just breeds bitterness and resentment.

I'm not sure how this relates to FE, though.
 

Peter Deadpan

phallus impudicus
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Messages
8,882
I didn't even read the entire thread because you seem to be confused about the definitions of both enlightenment and Fe.
 

Tennessee Jed

Active member
Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Messages
590
MBTI Type
INFP
From the OP:

[...snipped] Is it foolish to want to help these people become enlightened? Much like the bodhisattva, may our mission be to enlighten others to void suffering. These people are already set on their ways, is it even possible? Is it a waste of time? Are we to only speak to those open and interested? Give me your thoughts.

As others have said, the OP is confusing.

Seems like you want to talk about proselytizing (or "enlightening others" as you put it) and whether it's a useful (or ultimately useless) activity. Fine, whatever. That's a reasonable topic. But then, based on the title of the thread, you seem to assume that this drive to proselytize comes from Fe. But Fe Doms have repeatedly pointed out in this thread that they don't recognize proselytizing as an Fe trait.

So it seems that you need to start by properly defining where that proselytizing drive is coming from. In other words, if you want to talk about the utility (or not) of proselytizing, it would help to square away that initial confusion about where your proselytizing drive is coming from in the first place.

Here's my theory: Things like a drive to proselytize derive from the Ego (in the Freudian sense).

That is, our individual Egos each contain our own individual pictures or ideas or assumptions of how the world should function. I've seen these ideas/assumptions referred to as one's "sense of life," "world view," "organizing perceptions," etc. Furthermore, we want the outer world around us to *mirror* that Ego-based "sense of life." That is, we're happy when the world confirms our inner "sense of life," and we become unhappy and even anxious when the world runs counter to our inner "sense of life."

Thus, we all have a desire to see the world *mirror* our Ego-based "sense of life," and so we may choose to reach out to the world around us and try to push the world to move closer to our "sense of life." IOW, we may try to "mold the world in our own image."

How do we do that? Well, it depends on our type.

--Se-Dominant types may demonstrate wild skills at some extreme sport, hypnotizing an admiring audience with their flips and gyrations. This is a type of *mirroring* between audience and a performer on the grand stage.

--Ti-Dom types like to create systems to guide the world in a more orderly pattern: Legal codes, philosophical systems, psychological systems, etc. It's a more academic and intellectual style of *mirroring*.

--As for Fe-Dom types (based mainly on some ENFJ friends and acquaintances of mine over the years), I would characterize them as Charmers and Networkers. When they want to engage in *mirroring*, they create networks of like-minded people around them, and then bask in the glow. It's a social thing. IOW, they aren't proselytizers; it's more like schmooze-fests. (Apologies to ENFJs if I'm wrong here; I'm just presenting my own superficial impression of how they operate.)

--As for INFJs: When they want to engage in *mirroring*, they proselytize. They tend to create little discussion groups of like-minded people and work up political or philosophical or religious positions together, like a little choir all singing together in tune. It's true that they're using their Fe people skills to help get their message across. But it's Aux Fe working in service of Dom Ni. Ultimately the drive to proselytize comes from Ni: INFJs ponder and ponder and ponder issues in their usual Ni way, and then they want the world to *mirror* those Ni-related issues.

So technically, here's how it works in INFJs: They ponder Ni ideas, and then their Ego wants the world to *mirror* those ideas. But since Ego pretty much overlaps with one's Dominant function, they tend to express that mirroring in a way that fits their Dom. And then, secondarily, they might use their Auxiliary Fe in service to their Dom Ni to help with the mirroring process. But ultimately their *mirroring* style reflects their Dom function.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. I was just doing some reading up on *sense of life* and *mirroring*, so this stuff is all fresh on my mind. I decided to jump in and clarify this one point about the source of the proselytization drive, since it's creating a lot of distraction about how much Fe might be involved.

There still remains the question broached by the OP: Is Ni-based proselytization a useful or less-than-useful pursuit in the larger world? How do other types react to it? I have opinions on those questions as well, having participated in a couple INFJ-led discussion groups. But I'll stop here and see if what I've said about the source of the proselytization drive generates any discussion.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
6,048
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I feel like you have to start with yourself before you can help others. It's important to have your own house in order. The other way doesn't work; it just breeds bitterness and resentment.

I agree with this completely. As much as people tend to define Fe as being predominantly other-centered (or at least that Fe focuses first on others), it's a definition that I believe pretty much nulls the concept of "healthy Fe." Because there's nothing healthy about using others to regulate our emotions for us - and if a person isn't focused first and foremost on keeping their own needs in check/ managing their own emotions, then invariably we lean on others to do that work for us.

And to the op question: I'd say it's foolish for anyone to think they hold the keys to anyone else's enlightenment. People generally embrace wisdom presented to them; not without exception, but for the most part it's true. If a troubling amount of people reject the 'key', then it isn't as infallible/universal a key as you think it is. The wisest people are able to share their opinion without neeee-e-eding others to embrace it as wisdom or enlightenment. Imposing our needs on others in the guise of 'caring' does indeed breed bitterness and resent.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Um... I don't really understand this? Is this Ni? I don't help people to have an everlasting impact on them. I live life for myself. If I ever help someone, it's because I'm a nice person. I don't expect an outcome. I also don't understand how you think you can have an everlasting impact on someone. It's not possible.
I can't speak for [MENTION=35226]stoic[/MENTION], but if I think I won't have an impact on someone, even if only a limited impact, I am unlikely to try to help them. That is just wasted effort. Might as well move on to someone for whom I can make an actual difference.

As for the question in the thread title, altruism isn't foolish, but at its roots, it is inevitably selfish.
 

Lucy_Ricardo

New member
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
146
MBTI Type
INFP
Firstly, the title of this thread (Is Altruism Foolish?) and the question asked in the post are two entirely different things.

Secondly, altruism--to have a selfless concern for the well-being of others--is not foolish. It can be self-detrimental, which some might see as foolish. But I don't feel like discussing that.

Thirdly, it is not foolish to want to help people find a righteous path to enlightenment, but a want is all it can be. No one can achieve true enlightenment, so to think that you could lead others to achieve it is foolishness of the highest order.

We see through a glass darkly, meaning that our views of reality are distorted and imperfect. Therefore, we cannot achieve true enlightenment because our perceptions won't allow it. So to think that we could lead someone else to enlightenment when we can't even get there ourselves is pompous.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for enlightenment--we should never stop trying to be better than we are. We just have to accept that enlightenment is a star we can never reach.
 

Red Ribbon

New member
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
241
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
If you abstain to personal core values, then I would suppose you'd be quite more egocentric. Rather, your surely more focused on practical matters of assisting people. It's a valid point. Undoubtedly this topic is probably more applicable to altruists rather than the wider spectrum of Fe, so it deserves an edit.

View attachment 19014

From your standpoint, what's stupid about altruism then?

I follow Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. That should tell you everything.
 

Red Ribbon

New member
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
241
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I can't speak for [MENTION=35226]stoic[/MENTION], but if I think I won't have an impact on someone, even if only a limited impact, I am unlikely to try to help them. That is just wasted effort. Might as well move on to someone for whom I can make an actual difference.

As for the question in the thread title, altruism isn't foolish, but at its roots, it is inevitably selfish.

I understand that and I'd say most people are like that as well. But their talk of enlightenment and things like that made me wonder if it's Ni. I personally don't understand Ni all that well. When I think of helping someone, I think of more trivial things. IDK.

- - - Updated - - -

Pathological Altruism is a plague.

You understand :)
 

Agent Washington

Softserve Ice Cream
Joined
Jan 24, 2017
Messages
2,053
I understand that and I'd say most people are like that as well. But their talk of enlightenment and things like that made me wonder if it's Ni. I personally don't understand Ni all that well. When I think of helping someone, I think of more trivial things. IDK.

- - - Updated - - -



You understand :)

And no, it's not Ni.

.......Your icon makes me think of Umbridge.
 

caspar

New member
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Messages
14
MBTI Type
INTJ
“Kindly let me help you or you will drown,” said the monkey putting the fish safely up a tree.


Personally I don't like if someone is absolutely convinced of his/her opinion and wants to "convert" all non-believers. Trying to convince me of something that I think is nonsense will just make both of us bitter. You because you didn't succeed, me because I don't like to be bothered with things I don't trust/believe in. Allow people to find enlightenment for themselves, as it means something else for every person. For some it might be some religious stuff, for others football and beer.
 
Top