Are ESFJs really sensitive and caring or is it a ploy?

[Yama]

I agree, I think it's true that on average, some types are predisposed to more unhealthy/healthy behaviors on average than others. Although when I point out a messed up behavior that I consistently see in one type, people will always deny that it's related to type and just say that the individual was unhealthy.

Because correlation =/= causation. People are not types. People are people, and types are a label that cannot capture their complexity. Personality type is an archetype that no single person is capable of encapsulating in its entirety; unhealthy behavior that deviates from the archetype is an individual thing. Not to mention the complete reliance on anecdotes as evidence--to say that the type itself is unhealthy, you should be looking at the type's archetype, not a few people you've happened to come across in your lifetime. It's entirely possible that you've just come across the wrong people, or that your own experiences flavor your idea of unhealthy behavior. Not to say that these people who you're typing as xSFJs aren't in the wrong in whatever they did, because I don't know them or what situations you've gone through with them. But once you consider just how little actual evidence there is to slap a few personal examples from one or two people's personal experience onto the entire type's archetype, it becomes absurd. All types are equally capable of being healthy or unhealthy because all types are archetypes that can never box any individual person 100% accurately. I certainly have faith that you will meet healthy examples of the type, if you haven't already without knowing.

 

[Scapegoated 4 fun]

Not to mention the complete reliance on anecdotes as evidence--to say that the type itself is unhealthy, you should be looking at the type's archetype, not a few people you've happened to come across in your lifetime...

As far as everything I've read goes, the ESFJ archetype is one of the protector, nurturer, defender, rule-follower, rule instiller etc. All the descriptions I've read seem to talk about the ESFJ's preoccupation with following the established norms and rules, and some descriptions even go as far as saying that ESFJs look down on and possibly even resent others who don't follow the "rules" to the same extent that they do. To me, that sounds like an inherently unhealthy behavior. Also, their tendency to self-sacrifice or play the role of victim (even the healthy ones) seems an unhealthy default state to exist in as they are willing to go to great lengths to be seen as being a "victim" or someone in need of help. Other types (namely the thinking ones), don't seem to, at least on average, have the same problem of having a pathological need to be viewed as a victim by others. We are more or less detached from how others perceive us because we know it is mostly beyond our control what others think and that it would be a waste of energy/unhealthy/not respectful of ourselves and our boundaries to allow others views of us dictate or influence our actions.

 

[Haven]

Sometimes I help people out because I have the time and energy to do so. It isn't a means to an end here, it's just a natural disposition.

Sometimes I don't have that time or energy, so I don't

Sometimes helping someone can have bad consequences for myself or others, so I stop. If I'm considering the consequences of what I do, it could sort of be a means to and end here. It isn't so different from Te in that way.

I think I get angry for the same reason I'm helpful though, I'm looking out for people. But if I spend too much time with someone that grates on me it wears me down and, well, yea.

 

[Yama]

As far as everything I've read goes, the ESFJ archetype is one of the protector, nurturer, defender, rule-follower, rule instiller etc. All the descriptions I've read seem to talk about the ESFJ's preoccupation with following the established norms and rules, and some descriptions even go as far as saying that ESFJs look down on and possibly even resent others who don't follow the "rules" to the same extent that they do. To me, that sounds like an inherently unhealthy behavior. Also, their tendency to self-sacrifice or play the role of victim (even the healthy ones) seems an unhealthy default state to exist in as they are willing to go to great lengths to be seen as being a "victim" or someone in need of help. Other types (namely the thinking ones), don't seem to, at least on average, have the same problem of having a pathological need to be viewed as a victim by others. We are more or less detached from how others perceive us because we know it is mostly beyond our control what others think and that it would be a waste of energy/unhealthy/not respectful of ourselves and our boundaries to allow others views of us dictate or influence our actions.

But again, this is the archetype, and people do not ever match the archetype to a T. I definitely believe some people match up with it, and I don't doubt you've met some crappy SFJs, but the only explanation I think I could buy for there possibly being more bad SFJs than bad other types is because it's the most common type, so there will be more of both bad and good of this type. There are some pretty cool ESFJs out there and some bad ones as well. I hope that one day you will meet some cool ones to balance how many icky ones you've run into.

 

[Scapegoated 4 fun]

But again, this is the archetype, and people do not ever match the archetype to a T. I definitely believe some people match up with it, and I don't doubt you've met some crappy SFJs, but the only explanation I think I could buy for there possibly being more bad SFJs than bad other types is because it's the most common type, so there will be more of both bad and good of this type. There are some pretty cool ESFJs out there and some bad ones as well. I hope that one day you will meet some cool ones to balance how many icky ones you've run into.

Since when is unhealthy interchangeable with bad?

 

[Scapegoated 4 fun]

Sometimes I help people out because I have the time and energy to do so. It isn't a means to an end here, it's just a natural disposition.

Sometimes I don't have that time or energy, so I don't

Sometimes helping someone can have bad consequences for myself or others, so I stop. If I'm considering the consequences of what I do, it could sort of be a means to and end here. It isn't so different from Te in that way.

I think I get angry for the same reason I'm helpful though, I'm looking out for people. But if I spend too much time with someone that grates on me it wears me down and, well, yea.

Well it's nice to hear your perspective although it's ultimately anecdotal which means it likely won't be taken very seriously here.

 

[Yama]

Since when is unhealthy interchangeable with bad?

I was on my phone. It was easier to type. lol

 

[Yama]

Well it's nice to hear your perspective although it's ultimately anecdotal which means it likely won't be taken very seriously here.

...I know this wasn't directed at me, but you know, just because I argued that you can't justify an entire theory off of anecdotal evidence doesn't mean that anecdotes are completely worthless. I use them as well. I'm getting the feeling that you have some kind of problem with me, and I don't know if it's because I disagree with some of your posts, because I type as an xSFJ, both, or neither, but I don't really get it. Would you like me to just stop posting in your threads?

 

[Scapegoated 4 fun]

...I know this wasn't directed at me, but you know, just because I argued that you can't justify an entire theory off of anecdotal evidence doesn't mean that anecdotes are completely worthless. I use them as well. I'm getting the feeling that you have some kind of problem with me, and I don't know if it's because I disagree with some of your posts, because I type as an xSFJ, both, or neither, but I don't really get it. Would you like me to just stop posting in your threads?

No it's not just you, it's been everyone's argument who's openly disagreed with me so far.

 

[EJCC]

Moved several pages' worth of personal bickering to Off-Topic Posts (which you may find in the Graveyard if you are morbidly curious).