[MBTI General] Anti-sensor bias

[Peter Deadpan]

Being critical of it is where the fun begins.

I hope so. I often think about abandoning it altogether though. Just keeps sucking me back in.

 

[Poki]

Also a fair point. I've been very logically critical of typology lately.

Thats critical thinking. Its part of the search for truth. Its a good thing. Just dont get stuck in critcal...a good balance will find the truths.

 

[Pionart]

Here's what I've been able to gather about sensor bias:

1. The way that sensing is described in the MBTI tends to be much less flattering than intuition.

2. Because of this, 90% of people who take the test, when presented with a question asking them to choose between an intuitive and sensing response, will go with the intuitive response.

3. (I suspect that) because of this, the only people who are actually going to score as a sensor on the test will be the most extreme possible versions of their respective sensor type and probably not all that fun for a lot of people to deal with. Thus, the negative sensor stereotype is re-enforced.


Now, a few questions:

-Are there any tests that correct the sensor bias?

-Is there a good estimate of how many intuitives are actually mistyped sensors?

-Could you actually flip this around and design a test that has an anti-intuitive bias rather than an anti-sensor bias? What would the people who actually manage to score as intuitive on that test look like in contrast to the ISTJ accountant, ESFP cheerleader, etc?

Uhh... actually, people are more likely to choose the Sensing option. So, how do we know if there are actually more Ss than Ns or if the questionairre is biased? It's more likely that Ns mistype as Ss than the other way around.

 

[Red Ribbon]

I'm pretty sure I'm some kind of sensing type but I don't really think Ns and Ss are all that different in real life. I think the lines of dichotomy are pretty blurry. I think the tests also have a T/F bias with being more skewed to the T side. I think superficially, for someone who takes the test for the first time, they're misled by the questions. When I first took the test I score as infp because, of course I see the big picture and of course I'm very emotional. Then there's also the issue that a lot of the times people are nothing like how the type descriptions usually are.

My point is there are lots of things to be taken into consideration when talking about people being mistype and not just a sensor bias but TBH I don't expect an online test to be of any use to type yourself. I haven't taken the official test so I can't talk about that.

 

[Population: 1]

I have to agree that I find a lot of people don't want to associate with being intuitive. Sensing is straight forward and you can describe a situation in which you used your senses and everyone can relate. Intuitives try and describe how intuition works and it's difficult to explain and often it comes off as sounding like mumbojumbo and sparkly new age hippie nonsense.

I can't begin to tell you how it works except that it does and more often than not the insight about something is correct often based on nothing more than a feeling that something is what it is. Strangely, the less of a solid observation about someone or something I have before an intuitive moment, the more I tend to follow it and have it pan out in the end. It's completely counter to a reasonable assessment of something! Try telling your friends or family that you have drawn a conclusion about a particular person or situation based off of nothing more than your gut. We live in a fact driven society and sensing is concrete and a relatable process.

Anyway people want to relate to one another so sensing is way more agreeable than something that's hard to explain the operations of, impossible to substantiate, and sounds otherworldly compared to any other function in MBTI.

 

[Riva]

Who needs to be a big thinker?

It's overrated.

I just want to be competent at what I do; perhaps even the best.

My second cousin (who is an isfp) is a big thinker. Assistant professor in a research facility.

 

[Turi]

I'm still trying to come to a definition for Se for myself that doesn't feel so flat. It's the one function I feel, people just got lazy and finished up explaining the functions so they just quickly scribbled down some words then headed out to Starbucks.

I know there's something more to it, there just HAS to be. All the other functions I was bale to extract more from the typical definitions, and was able to see them in a way that truly made sense for me as to their reason for being. Se is totally just an afterthought and that seriously bugs me.

I'm an ISTP, I agree Se does seem like a bit of an afterthought.
Everybody uses all of their senses unless they're disabled.
Sensors will still walk into poles. It doesn't mean we have super powers.

The way I read it, is that a solid Se user might be more alert to their surroundings, more aware of what's going on around them, physically.

Some examples might be someone with solid Se out on a walk through a forest, and spotting things like lizards, various plants etc, and noticing things like spider webs etc that might be hanging in the path ahead.
Someone who's not so attuned to their Se - someone who lives in their head more - might be thinking about something else, and perhaps miss those details that are present in the here and now.
They might be concerned with say.. how long would it take to EV train their Charizard to smash up their friends team.. or perhaps think how a tree root sticking out of the ground kinda looks like a wizards staff.

The stronger Se user might also have these thoughts, but they're more aware of their surroundings. They might not get caught up on those thoughts.
The weaker Se user might actually get so involved with those thoughts that they miss things around them.



In my opinion, we all use all of the functions, we're all Se users - one thing that stronger Se users might resonate with, is that they love new experiences.
Whether that is by trying new foods - even something as small as picking different things off a menu each time they go to a restaurant might be indicative of Se... these people might like to listen to a variety of different music.

They might like to walk a different route every day, mix it up. They might enjoy both hot and cold weather.

This is stuff everyone might do, I'm just trying to demonstrate how I see Se, as someone who relatively consistently gets ISTP as a result in tests.

Perhaps this tendency to like trying new things, whatever it is, means they might be more susceptible to just "going for it" and seeing what happens in some circumstances, than someone with a weaker Se might do.
This is hard because I mean, as you'd know, ISTPs have Ti as their dominant function - I'll have a think about a situation first, then dive in if it makes sense to do so, and honestly, it just being something new may very well be enough to pass my Ti check.
Or it might not be.


It might also come through in great hand-eye co-ordination, I myself have brilliant hand-eye co-ordination, I prove this time and time again with pretty much anything physical I do - I'm accurate in Archery, I'm accurate with a guillotine in the office, I'm accurate in video games at sniping peoples heads off, I'm accurate with my guesses at distances etc and measurements, I'm just naturally good at that kind of thing and more than that, I enjoy it.

I enjoy having great hand-eye co-ordination. I enjoy being able to tell whether the chef at my local indian restaurant has added too much white pepper to my rice, or a little too much salt to my butter chicken sauce. Anyone could tell the differences sure, but is it perhaps the trait of a solid Se that can pin-point what the difference is?

I don't know. It gets confusing because it's like.. Se is something we all have. We all use.


Perhaps it could be tied to practicality - i.e my car breaks downs - rather than think of various worst-case scenarios involving backpacker murderers, or wild animals, I'm going to take a more practical approach and just get out of the car and see WTF is going on, pop the bonnet, have a look.

Some people wouldn't do that. For real. They'd think about who they're going to call etc.
Common sense wouldn't even enter their brains. They'd think.. what if this happens.. or this happens.. better call someone now.. my phone battery will die soon.. come on..



I could be way way way off. Sorry for going on and on.
I could go on for way longer.

I'd love to answer any questions people have.
I resonate with Se really strongly. I'm positive I'm an ISTP. I'd be totally down for answering questions from my point of view just to see if it helps clear anything up.

Not that I'm some kind of ISTP spokesperson but, I might have some natural insight into Se, that my Ti will let me express in an easy to understand, logical manner.

 

[cascadeco]

I can agree with several points brought up in this thread.

I do think that there's actually nothing negative about many of the sensor descriptors in tests. Ie 'practical', 'sensible', and so on are at the very least neutral, and many sensors will in fact identify with them and my mom, for example, might scoff at the opposite, 'imaginative'. And for me, at least, I know I've always been 'sensible' and I do identify with that; though there was a time when I may have felt sheepish about it. (see below)

However, sensors in an intuitive dominant environment, which could include organizations or institutions which may have a leaning towards intuitives, or even sensors with a lot of intuitive friends, may be so immersed in intuitive world that they may attach value to intuitive traits, thus may begin aspiring to/valuing those things, and then test as such. These sensors might experience a feeling of 'lacking' if in those environments, just as intuitives may feel 'lacking' when immersed with tons of sensors. I think this can happen too.

And then, I think ultimately it's a spectrum, so there are extreme intuitives, extreme sensors, and a whole lot in between.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

I'm sometimes imaginative and sometimes in the real world, both are important for a meaningful life imo.

 

[cascadeco]

I'm sometimes imaginative and sometimes in the real world, both are important for a meaningful life imo.

Yeah, I don't even know what imaginative means anymore. Compared to some people, I probably am; compared to others, I'm not.

 

[virtualinsanity]

Extraverted Sensation is better than Extraverted Intuition in my opinion.. and is as equal of importance to me as Ni. Hell.. I never understood the bias against "Sensors." Introverted Sensation is abstract, too. It actually has ability to distort things and make them seem cooler than what they are... Sure, some Se users can be basic as hell ...but at times.... basic is all you need to enjoy life and experience it to the highest degree possible. In the end, we're all dead and etc..

Humans only responsibility is living.

 

[Straylight]

I can agree with several points brought up in this thread.

I do think that there's actually nothing negative about many of the sensor descriptors in tests. Ie 'practical', 'sensible', and so on are at the very least neutral, and many sensors will in fact identify with them and my mom, for example, might scoff at the opposite, 'imaginative'. And for me, at least, I know I've always been 'sensible' and I do identify with that; though there was a time when I may have felt sheepish about it. (see below)

However, sensors in an intuitive dominant environment, which could include organizations or institutions which may have a leaning towards intuitives, or even sensors with a lot of intuitive friends, may be so immersed in intuitive world that they may attach value to intuitive traits, thus may begin aspiring to/valuing those things, and then test as such. These sensors might experience a feeling of 'lacking' if in those environments, just as intuitives may feel 'lacking' when immersed with tons of sensors. I think this can happen too.

And then, I think ultimately it's a spectrum, so there are extreme intuitives, extreme sensors, and a whole lot in between.

What an extremely sensible point of view.

I'm an N-type myself, and I completely agree with you. I think your response perfectly summarizes the issue and illustrates what is actually taking place.

This thread is really quite the irony. Speaking from my own experience, being an N-type immersed into S-biased world culture, it's absolutely awful and I feel like crap all the time. For example, I do not want to "let loose and enjoy myself" the way sensors always tell me to do because their lifestyle is not appealing or fun to me and I do not enjoy participating in it.

I literally cannot engage in anything in my life without having to confine my perception to the realm of information that only sensation types would appreciate most of the time. Even in college, and at work, there is always a sensor-bias. The institutions all skew and present the information in such a way as to cater to sensation types. In every market, every single data-set showing any kind of consumer sentimentality and interest is skewed toward sensation types. The entire planet is dominated by the values and interests of sensation types, It's depressing enough to induce an existential crisis if you're an intuitive type and still a kid trying to understand why you don't fit in.

Throw on top of that all the psychologists who don't have any background in MBTI, so they use a model like MMPI to try and diagnose an illness when you go in to them saying what I'm saying. So suddenly being intuitive is literally a disease?

Sorry, maybe this thread can cure my intuitiveness and turn me into a good little sensor boy, so then finally I'll learn to appreciate sensation types and check my intuitive privilege.

 

[Dreamer]

Quite honestly, when these sorts of threads pop up, where one feels put down by a description of their type or function stack, whatever, I feel it has much less to do with what is actually presented, and more going on behind the scenes. If you feel victimized, put down, you will see the descriptions in a very similar light since that's your perspective. I don't really see much difference between how the functions and types are described. If anything, I find them to be a bit dull since they are all presented in only the best way possible.

This goes both ways though, if someone believes they are decendents of God, they will attribute their amazingness to Ni or whatever bias leaning they have of themselves. So where you see the description coming from, also plays a part. But in general, the typical websites like 16personalities, eh, they all seem fine to me with no type reining supreme.

And just to throw it out there, why do I often say on the forum and on Discord that I wish I had an ESFP friend, or that I tend to befriend SFJs unknowingly? Because I'm fully aware of my weaknesses and I DO live in my head and in fantasy land quite a bit. I need people around me to wake me up from that, not to change me mind you, I love who I am, but I need that balance, between the real and the figurative.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

What an extremely sensible point of view.

I'm an N-type myself, and I completely agree with you. I think your response perfectly summarizes the issue and illustrates what is actually taking place.

This thread is really quite the irony. Speaking from my own experience, being an N-type immersed into S-biased world culture, it's absolutely awful and I feel like crap all the time. For example, I do not want to "let loose and enjoy myself" the way sensors always tell me to do because their lifestyle is not appealing or fun to me and I do not enjoy participating in it.

I literally cannot engage in anything in my life without having to confine my perception to the realm of information that only sensation types would appreciate most of the time. Even in college, and at work, there is always a sensor-bias. The institutions all skew and present the information in such a way as to cater to sensation types. In every market, every single data-set showing any kind of consumer sentimentality and interest is skewed toward sensation types. The entire planet is dominated by the values and interests of sensation types, It's depressing enough to induce an existential crisis if you're an intuitive type and still a kid trying to understand why you don't fit in.

Throw on top of that all the psychologists who don't have any background in MBTI, so they use a model like MMPI to try and diagnose an illness when you go in to them saying what I'm saying. So suddenly being intuitive is literally a disease?

Sorry, maybe this thread can cure my intuitiveness and turn me into a good little sensor boy, so then finally I'll learn to appreciate sensation types and check my intuitive privilege.

Intuition is not a disease, and what even makes you think that it is? Besides, the world isn't 100% made for anyone. Learn to make it through the world your own way.

I'm not into the "let lose yolo" lifestyle myself, but I find my own ways to have fun.

 

[Straylight]

Intuition is not a disease, and what even makes you think that it is? Besides, the world isn't 100% made for anyone.

I don't even know why you replied to me. Where did I say it was a disease? Also, I never said the world was 100% for anyone.

As I said in my post, most psychologists use the MMPI to try and diagnose you for an illness.

There are a lot of psychologists who interpret it as ADHD.

Also a lot of psychologists even interpret high scoring introversion as symptoms of autism.

What, you think general practitioners use the MBTI?

 

[Smilephantomhive]

I don't even know why you replied to me. Where did I say it was a disease? Also, I never said the world was 100% for anyone.

As I said in my post, most psychologists use the MMPI to try and diagnose you for an illness.

There are a lot of psychologists who interpret it as ADHD.

Also a lot of psychologists even interpret high scoring introversion as symptoms of autism.

What, you think general practitioners use the MBTI?

This is a quote you said, go up and check:

So suddenly being intuitive is literally a disease?

So, you did think of it as a disease.

Now I replied to your post because I want to help you and all the other intutives who are using mbti to justify their failures. I understand that people want to know where their negative feelings and failures come from, but blaming it on others and not doing anything to foix it is self sabotage.

But let's say that all your problems were due to being intuitive. What would you do to solve them?
Spend some time to think if using mbti is helping you solve problems or is it just giving you an excuse to give up?

What do psychologists interpret as ADHD?
I know that there are some extroverts professionally diagnosed with autism, so I'm not sure where the introvert part comes in.

Okay some people do consider some things as bad. Look I had, and still do have incredibly low self esteem, and have felt different than other people in a negative way. Hell, my mom said that my teachers couldn't figure me out since I was so weird. But I am currently working on myself, and trying to become a better person.

Okay so sometimes I have to work with theories in school, sometimes my teachers give me incredibly vague instructions which STJs loath. Am I complaining about the school system not catering towards me 100% of the time? No, I understand that another type of information is good for me and can help me grow. And I don't think that every system is biased towards sensors. I mean there are plenty of theoretical "intuitive" types of jobs. You just need to find your niche. Personally I think it's possible that you think everything is biased towards sensors because you think that everything that doesn't come easy to you is because the sensors are oppressing you due to confirmation bias. That's just my opinion, but I think it will benefit you to think about it.

And of course sensors have it easy with some things, but intutitves have it easy with other things.

You never said the world was 100% anyone, but you certaintly implied it. Many intuitives think that sensors live easy lives, which is not always true. They tend to praise sensors in strangely odd ways such as saying how great you are at maintaining things, but not worth much when it comes to creating thinsg. Their "compliments" tend to be about how easy sensors have it, and not really about things they were passionate and put a lot of work into. So you didn't say it, but I'm talking to the general people here.

 

[Straylight]

[MENTION=25892]Smilephantomhive[/MENTION]

I didn't imply any of that. You clearly misinterpreted what I said to mean something else, and then I even replied to you clarifying it and you're still trying to argue with me.

And now you're accusing me of trying to justify my failures and a lot of other bullshit that just got really personal and totally inappropriate.

You are way out of line and attacking me for no reason.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

[MENTION=25892]Smilephantomhive[/MENTION]

I didn't imply any of that. You clearly misinterpreted what I said to mean something else, and then I even replied to you clarifying it and you're still trying to argue with me.

And now you're accusing me of trying to justify my failures and a lot of other bullshit that just got really personal and totally inappropriate.

You are way out of line and attacking me for no reason.

Okay maybe I shouldn't have quoted you since I was thinking if other people, and maybe I projected their qualities onto you.

I'm sorry for that

But I do think that what I wrote needed to be said, but yeah I shouldn't have directed that at you.

 

[Straylight]

Okay maybe I shouldn't have quoted you since I was thinking if other people, and maybe I projected their qualities onto you.

I'm sorry for that

But I do think that what I wrote needed to be said, but yeah I shouldn't have directed that at you.

Thank you for apologizing. Honestly, I wasn't expecting that level of maturity. I really appreciate it.

I think I understand where your feelings are coming from. I've been immersed into personality psychology since 2009 when I first joined Personality Cafe. I can see what you are saying, that there are a lot of intuitive types who abuse the system to justify their projected feelings and negativity. I assure you, I'm well past that kind of behavior. I don't go around labeling people and being a "typist". I have no grudge against sensors.

My grudge is about being told by psychologists growing up that I had all these mental issues that I didn't really have, simply because general practitioners are not equipped to understand when something is a personality trait versus an illness. Most of them just slap "depressed" on your forehead, and then give you a bottle of pills and tell you to get more exercise. It's really stupid.

Then, you find out way down the line "oh, I'm just an intuitive type. My behavior is perfectly normative, it's only seen as eccentric because I'm in a small percentage of the population."

I also have a grudge against marketing and the education system for being really biased toward sensors. I'm not blaming sensors for this, it's the fault of the administration for not having a more dynamic set of curriculum that caters to different learning styles. And it's frustrating working in development with companies that only care about designing a product to appeal to sensation types because they form the majority of the consumer base. It just makes me feel left out and that's depressing.

But, there are always little niches for intuitive types to thrive in, you know, little corners of the world. We do well in theoretical subjects and higher education for example. I meet a lot of intuitive types in my advanced science courses at university (I'm currently in a graduate studies program going for a masters in computer science).

And to be fair, I do see a disproportionately large number of introverts and intuitive types on these sorts of forums (psychology websites). I'm sure it must feel alienating and frustrating to be a sensation type, trying to fit in, only to have everyone sitting at the table with you being really dissonant and condescending toward you because they think they run the place.

I think a more apt title for this thread would have been "anti-sensor bias in MBTI forum communities." The MBTI itself seems extremely fair to me. However, I think the fans of it really distort the whole thing and it becomes used to discriminate, mainly on these kinds of websites.

 

[Poki]

Intuition is not a disease, and what even makes you think that it is? Besides, the world isn't 100% made for anyone. Learn to make it through the world your own way. I'm not into the "let lose yolo" lifestyle myself, but I find my own ways to have fun.

Intuition told them that because it cant actually see whats in front if it that well. It just uses a sixth sense of intuition it doesnt understand. :Laugh:

Both are valuable, intuition has a disconnect from reality that allows one to span out, while sensor has a connection to reality which is grounded. Utilize both, its the best of both worlds. Same applies to T vs F. Time and place for both, instead of picking one why dont people figure out when and where you are good at using the functions you have available and do that.

Anti-sensor bias is N ego minimizing what it cant do. I honestly see an equal amount of sensors and intuitives in this world. Its like just because we use "senses" to see the world it must be a "sensor" world. In ways i am thankful for being aux S and Tert N because i find both S and N to be highly useful and functions that work awesome together as a checks and balance system. Both are half ass on their own.