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Jung's System Is Flawed - Rip My Theory To Shreds Please

Mal12345

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???

Jung says that what he refers to as the "third" function (the tertiary) essentially functions as the inferior's "auxiliary."

That's what I'm asking. So thank you for clarifying things. What do you want, a tip or something?

Jung said that one of his types had what he referred to as a "conscious attitude" (E or I) and an "unconscious attitude" (the opposite of the conscious attitude). And in a typical case, he envisioned that the dom and aux would essentially be concious and the third (tert) and fourth (inferior) would be unconscious. And in that quote from Chapter X of PT, he specifically refers to those pairs as the "conscious functions" and the "unconscious functions."

ADDED: As further discussed in that two-part post I've already linked to, Jung described a kind of default state of the psyche where the only differentiated function was the dom and the other three functions were all unconscious, and fused together (undifferentiated), and in that state Jung described all three of the non-dom functions as having the opposite attitude to the dom. But that description is very much inconsistent with Jung's description of the auxiliary function, which he described as a function that was largely differentiated and brought up into consciousness to serve the dom. Assuming that differentiation of the auxiliary took place (and Jung said that was "typical"), the auxiliary, as a "conscious function," would then share the dom's "conscious attitude."

Ok. So what about the unconscious auxiliary (i.e., tertiary) function? Does Jung give any more detail than saying it is usually unconscious (whatever that means), but when brought to consciousness carries with it negative unconscious traits? Or is that just the tip of the iceberg.
 

reckful

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What do you mean by "conscious" and "unconscious" in this context?

Huh?

I'm describing Jung's model, so I'm referring to Jung's "conscious" and "unconscious." I'm not meaning to add to it or adjust it in any reckfullian way.

As Jung saw it, the dynamics of the human psyche revolved first and foremost around a single great divide, and that divide involved two all-important components — namely, introversion/extraversion and conscious/unconscious. And as already noted, Jung's four-function model called (in the typical case) for two of the functions (dom and aux) to be differentiated and predominantly conscious (hence the "conscious functions") and two of the functions (tert and inf) to be essentially undifferentiated (fused together) and predominantly unconscious (hence "unconscious functions"). And the conscious functions would reflect the subject's "conscious attitude" (as Jung called it) — e.g., introverted for an introvert — and the unconscious functions would reflect the "unconscious attitude" (the opposite).
 

Mal12345

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Huh?

I'm describing Jung's model, so I'm referring to Jung's "conscious" and "unconscious." I'm not meaning to add to it or adjust it in any reckfullian way.

I'm not implying anything like that. Is this thing on..?

As Jung saw it, the dynamics of the human psyche revolved first and foremost around a single great divide, and that divide involved two all-important components — namely, introversion/extraversion and conscious/unconscious. And as already noted, Jung's four-function model called (in the typical case) for two of the functions (dom and aux) to be differentiated and predominantly conscious (hence the "conscious functions") and two of the functions (tert and inf) to be essentially undifferentiated (fused together) and predominantly unconscious (hence "unconscious functions"). And the conscious functions would reflect the subject's "conscious attitude" (as Jung called it) — e.g., introverted for an introvert — and the unconscious functions would reflect the "unconscious attitude" (the opposite).

So much of his talk about the unconscious sounds like it's a bad thing. What's so bad about functions being fused together, if anything?
 

reckful

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Ok. So what about the unconscious auxiliary (i.e., tertiary) function? Does Jung give any more detail than saying it is usually unconscious (whatever that means), but when brought to consciousness carries with it negative unconscious traits? Or is that just the tip of the iceberg.

Like Myers 60 years later, Jung didn't have much to say about the tertiary function.

And as you know, I think the whole idea of a "tertiary function" has been rightly characterized by Reynierse as a "category mistake," so I don't think that what Jung may have speculated about it is worth spending much time on in 2016.
 

Mal12345

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Like Myers 60 years later, Jung didn't have much to say about the tertiary function.

And as you know, I think the whole idea of a "tertiary function" has been rightly characterized by Reynierse as a "category mistake," so I don't think that what Jung may have speculated about it is worth spending much time on in 2016.

Category mistake?
 

Pionart

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The whole premise of an introvert having an "unconscious" extroverted attitude sounds a little strange to me.
 

Mal12345

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The whole premise of an introvert having an "unconscious" extroverted attitude sounds a little strange to me.

Hey yeah. And if it's unconscious, then it is a fused function, meaning that it is undifferentiated. But simply pointing it out treats it as differentiated.
 

Mal12345

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So there's the "plot hole" in this Jungian cognitive functions mess. Unconscious functions are undifferentiated functions, meaning, they can't be differentiated from other functions. Yet Jung treated them as if they are differentiated.
 

reckful

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So much of his talk about the unconscious sounds like it's a bad thing. What's so bad about functions being fused together, if anything?

Although Jung thought the unconscious could serve some positive purposes from time to time, most of his descriptions of the unconscious functions in action on a typical, day-to-day basis were more negative than positive. He saw them as common sources of people's weaknesses and bad sides and neuroses.

Here he is describing Fi in a Te-dom:

There are guardians of public morals who suddenly find themselves in compromising situations, or rescue workers who are themselves in dire need of rescue. Their desire to save others leads them to employ means which are calculated to bring about the very thing they wished to avoid. There are extraverted idealists so consumed by their desire for the salvation of mankind that they will not shrink from any lie or trickery in pursuit of their ideal. In science there are not a few painful examples of highly respected investigators who are so convinced of the truth and general validity of their formula that they have not scrupled to falsify evidence in its favour. Their sanction is: the end justifies the means. Only an inferior feeling function, operating unconsciously and in secret, could seduce otherwise reputable men into such aberrations.​
 

reckful

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So there's the "plot hole" in this Jungian cognitive functions mess. Unconscious functions are undifferentiated functions, meaning, they can't be differentiated from other functions. Yet Jung treated them as if they are differentiated.

You're misusing "differentiated." It didn't mean Jung thought you couldn't look at the effects of one of those functions (like inferior Fi in that post I just made) and reasonably conclude, "Aha! There's the unconscious Fi in action!"

To Jung, "differentiated" was a special term he employed to describe the process of the individual bringing a function up into consciousness in a way that made it subject to their conscious "will" and capable of what Jung called "direction" (on top of mostly removing it from the doleful influence of the inferior function).
 

Mal12345

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Although Jung thought the unconscious could serve some positive purposes from time to time, most of his descriptions of the unconscious functions in action on a typical, day-to-day basis were more negative than positive. He saw them as common sources of people's weaknesses and bad sides and neuroses.

Here he is describing Fi in a Te-dom:

There are guardians of public morals who suddenly find themselves in compromising situations, or rescue workers who are themselves in dire need of rescue. Their desire to save others leads them to employ means which are calculated to bring about the very thing they wished to avoid. There are extraverted idealists so consumed by their desire for the salvation of mankind that they will not shrink from any lie or trickery in pursuit of their ideal. In science there are not a few painful examples of highly respected investigators who are so convinced of the truth and general validity of their formula that they have not scrupled to falsify evidence in its favour. Their sanction is: the end justifies the means. Only an inferior feeling function, operating unconsciously and in secret, could seduce otherwise reputable men into such aberrations.​

I like that. Is it from Psychological Types?
 

Pionart

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So there's the "plot hole" in this Jungian cognitive functions mess. Unconscious functions are undifferentiated functions, meaning, they can't be differentiated from other functions. Yet Jung treated them as if they are differentiated.

its glitched!!!1

nowadays I tend to see a lot of the evidence for MBTI stuff, like Nardi, as being sort of created by using the model in the first place. Like, Nardi finds links between functions and brain regions, but it seems like these correlations could have just come about by using the cognitive function model to type the participants to begin with. I don't find it convincing, and at least according to reckful, there seems to be no convincing evidence to suggest the validity of the cognitive functions model. The MBTI dichotomies themselves are quite solid, but the Big 5 can be used for that instead, but there still is some understanding to be gained from looking at the cognitive functions. It's one model, not the one true model.
 

Mal12345

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You're misusing "differentiated." It didn't mean Jung thought you couldn't look at the effects of one of those functions (like inferior Fi in that post I just made) and reasonably conclude, "Aha! There's the unconscious Fi in action!"

To Jung, "differentiated" was a special term he employed to describe the process of the individual bringing a function up into consciousness in a way that made it subject to their conscious "will" and capable of what Jung called "direction" (on top of mostly removing it from the doleful influence of the inferior function).

I should re-word what I wrote. Sloppy me. What I meant to write was, "Unconscious functions are undifferentiated functions, meaning, they AREN'T differentiated from other functions." Psychologically speaking, they exist in a morass of other functions, fused together. I'm not saying you can't abstract out one function from the others. But in so doing, you're no longer talking about someone's psychology but only theory.
 

Mal12345

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its glitched!!!1

nowadays I tend to see a lot of the evidence for MBTI stuff, like Nardi, as being sort of created by using the model in the first place. Like, Nardi finds links between functions and brain regions, but it seems like these correlations could have just come about by using the cognitive function model to type the participants to begin with. I don't find it convincing, and at least according to reckful, there seems to be no convincing evidence to suggest the validity of the cognitive functions model. The MBTI dichotomies themselves are quite solid, but the Big 5 can be used for that instead, but there still is some understanding to be gained from looking at the cognitive functions. It's one model, not the one true model.

Nardi is using circular reasoning? That makes sense.
 

Pionart

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Nardi is using circular reasoning? That makes sense.

I don't wanna say that he definitely is, I haven't read any of his books or anything. But I was trying to understand how he could have gotten such strong results for neuroscientific correlations, and from what I've read, the circular reasoning thing seems to work.
 
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Wow I like this. Good ideas~~ Its much easier to assume intp for myself using this method... Ni > Ne > Ti > Fe > Fi > Si > Te > Se
 

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I always find it interesting to hear about different theories about cognitive functions. The stackings have never felt right for me personally because I tend to relate to all introverted functions and not many extroverted ones. I test strongly I and J and relate to most of the stereotypical traits associated with them. When I was going strictly off the MBTI dichotomies I was very comfortable identifying as INFJ. Learning about the functions ended up confusing me and I am still not entirely sure where I sit with them. I also strongly relate to EII in Socionics which doesn't fit with INFJ functions at all. I don't think the theory is completely accurate so I am open to different outlooks and interpretations of the system. Thanks for sharing yours!
 

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Jung described a stack of four functions, and said that, in the typical case, the auxiliary (mostly conscious) served the dominant (the most conscious) and the tertiary (mostly unconscious) served the inferior (the most repressed).

This part from Psychological Types is what led Myers and others to make the auxiliary extroverted. If the aux is in every respect different, it suggests an opposite attitude (ie if dom is I, then aux is E).

Psychological Types said:
This absolute sovereignty always belongs, empirically, to one function alone, and can belong only to one function, since the equally independent intervention of another function would necessarily yield a different orientation, which would at least partially contradict the first. .... Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. ... Experience shows that the secondary function is always one whose nature is different from, though not antagonistic to, the leading function : thus, for example, thinking, as primary function, can readily pair with intuition as auxiliary, or indeed equally well with sensation, but, as already observed, never with feeling. ... For all the types appearing in practice, the principle holds good that besides the conscious main function there is also a relatively unconscious, auxiliary function which is in every respect different from the nature of the main function. From these combinations well-known pictures arise, the practical intellect for instance paired with sensation, the speculative intellect breaking through [p. 516] with intuition, the artistic intuition which selects. and presents its images by means of feeling judgment, the philosophical intuition which, in league with a vigorous intellect, translates its vision into the sphere of comprehensible thought, and so forth.


The letter dichotomies are also based on Myer's idea that the auxiliary for an introvert determines their J/P preference also. Her book also groups people according to their dominant preference, which the J/P dichotomy is meant to indicate also. For example, she discusses both IxTPs as being Introverted Thinking types. So the difference between an ISTJ and ISTP is not simply J/P preferences, but what that indicates, which is that ISTJs are sensing types first and ISTPs are thinking types first, but that being introverts, each displays the other for their "face".

Remove the connection with functions and MBTI profiles don't make sense anymore.

Myers' function stack for a Ti-dom with an N-aux (for example) was Ti-Ne-Se-Fe, and the official MBTI folks have never endorsed the stack that flips the orientation of the tertiary. They've simply acknowledged that there is disagreement about that issue among MBTI theorists.

The tertiary is often listed without an attitude, true. I often suspect that no attitude is likely. Unless it's differentiated - which may happen with age as often suggested, who knows. Othewise I think it's probably fused with emotions, fantasies, memories - all the stuff Jung says aren't the functions themselves. If they get integrated, I suspect they are in service of the ego, so orientation may also be a moot point.

This is different from the inferior which is easier to detect an attitude for because it opposes the ego. When not differentiated, the tertiary is said to be fused to the inferior anyway.

So, I think the basis for giving the tertiary an opposite orientation to the inferior is based on this:

A grouping of the unconscious functions also takes place in accordance with the relationship of the conscious functions. Thus, for instance, an unconscious intuitive feeling attitude may correspond with a conscious practical intellect, whereby the function of feeling suffers a relatively stronger inhibition than intuition.

Aka An ST has an inferior NF attitude.

If the tertiary aligns with the inferior to form something of an opposite character to the ego and aux, then that suggests it would be opposite in every way to the inferior, just as the aux is with the dominant, or according to Myers' interpretation.

So the ST who is, say, Se ego with aux Ti would have an inferior Ni character with aux Fe.

I'm probably biased to that interpretation because I have trouble seeing another one in what Jung wrote (although what he wrote was vague).

Directed to the OP:
One reason I think people get confused is they think of functions as literal thought processes you "use" or even as skill sets, not as mentalities we identify with and display as personality. Myers notes this when she says a person often shows a preference when they can use either style, but may still have the ability for the non-preferred process when it's called for (ie Feelers can use logic). The inferior isnt an inability to use a thought process, it's more of a mentality that someone doesn't identify with, but which come out unconsciously.

That means cognitive function tests often aren't going to identify any typical function stack for someone. Rather, I notice that analyzing them shows they actually will indicate the same thing the dichotomies indicate, if you include the I/E and J/P preferences as wll.

For example, an IxTP type may find some Fi descriptions appealing, as they are Introverted Rationals, aka, it describes an IxxP preference. So they may show higher Fi than expected, but their Fe scoring is often predicably low.

Or an ISxJ type may identify with the Introverted Perceiving (Pi) qualities of Ni because it shows an IxxJ preference, not because they are even on their N/S preference. A low Ne score and higher Se score will often reveal that.

It can also happen where people identify with the same function but different attitude (ie N types tend to score themselves highly on both Ne and Ni).

Their lowest scores are often not the flip of the 4 function model for their type, but rather they reflect the opposite of their 4 preferred dichotomies.

This would defy the popular function stacks, but not the dichotomies, if you stop and think about what the person is actually identifying with (not always N/S or T/F, but also orientation and attitudes, which I/E and J/P represent). Given you can't always know what made someone identify with a statement, it becomes hard to untangle it, and without knowledge of the function dichotomies, it's not very helpful for typing.

I think there is one advantage in that in separating Si from Se or Fi from Fe, etc, it can peg a preference in someone who might otherwise be deterred by aspects of the function they dont relate to (ie I identify slightly more with Feeling than Thinking, but not when Feeling sounds like Fe. Then I will always choose the Thinyyking preference answer; however, cognitive function tests will always show me as preferring Fi a bit to Ti, although I will rate both highly).

Which, of course, is why it's not hard to understand that, despite the fact that people like Berens and Nardi have basically been peddling that stack for 15 years as if it's "the MBTI," the official MBTI folks who wear grown-up pants — and who accordingly share Isabel Myers' allegiance to data-based personality science — haven't endorsed it.

Nardi seems to be trying to bridge actual brain activity with the more psychospiritual ideas of Jung. IMO what Jung was talking about was more of a whole mentality, not specific processes. I think Nardi's ideas are interesting but he's too confident in putting them out there when there is not much to back up the patterns he supposedly detected (he didn't study many people at all).

I do have a few questions [MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION] - and maybe they're addressed in your other posts - but what of people who testing nearly 50/50 on certain dichotomies and may relate equally as much to both descriptions of the letter dichotomy?

Also, what about the matter of a large percentage of people testing as a different type months later?

It seems to me the focus on functions and order came out of these weak points in the test. People are looking to figure out their type when the dichotomies fail to clearly peg them consistently.

Personally, I only identified as a Feeling type after reading Jung and learning that Introverted Feeling is rational and doesn't look like Feeling or emotionality outwardly. The dichotomies put me smack in the middle of T/F.

Edit: to clarify, I don't accept the tandem junk either. I find that a gross misunderstanding of the tertiary and the inferior. I do think ideas like Lenore Thompson's (which had a similar concept to socionics) are pretty reasonable, because they assert that, say, an INTP having Ti-Ne preferences wouldn't be threatened by or suppress Ni and Te, and so they may show that mentality occasionally even if they much prefer Ti-Ne (I hesitate to say they use them, as then it sounds like skillsets). Basically, Ns will have stuff in common, Ts will have stuff in common, etc.
Fe would absolutely be inferior to them though, and arguably, Fi would even be less threatening and possibly more admissable, making them in no way a Ti-Fe type as if the two complement eachother and aren't opposing forces in their psychology with one unconscious and the other experienced as identity. A difference between an INTP and INTJ would also be that an INTP would find sensing less threatening than an INTJ, and the mbti dichotomy approach doesn't really touch on that. It does seem implied by Jung though and is noted when these new models talk about the tertiary. IMO its still a mistake to think of a tandem for the aux-tert because IF the tertiary is differentiated at all, then its in service of the ego not the aux and if not then its fused to the inferior.
 
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