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[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Introvert Sensing and the Persecution Complex

Hank

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Si is about perceiving the sensible world?

Is it not? Unless I'm mistaken, that's actually the definition of Sensing. Si senses the world at hand and records the patterns it finds to determine if they are logical (Te) or ethical (Fe); Se senses the world at hand, revels in the experience, and records it for processing as understandable/logical to oneself or for dissecting (Ti) or enjoyable/true to oneself (Fi).

We're also talking about several functions that I don't have a ton of experience with in real life, so if I'm off-base, you are more than welcome to correct me.
 

Mal12345

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Is it not? Unless I'm mistaken, that's actually the definition of Sensing. Si senses the world at hand and records the patterns it finds to determine if they are logical (Te) or ethical (Fe); Se senses the world at hand, revels in the experience, and records it for processing as understandable/logical to oneself or for dissecting (Ti) or enjoyable/true to oneself (Fi).

We're also talking about several functions that I don't have a ton of experience with in real life, so if I'm off-base, you are more than welcome to correct me.

Introverted sensing is obviously conscious of the external world, but Intuition also senses the external world. So it's not to be confused with perception. "Records patterns it finds" is not accurate. There are no patterns in the external world except those we create. This is especially true of introverted sensing which already has the patterns. It then overlays the perceptions with these patterns which surround and illuminate the object in accordance with the subject's unconscious backdrop. For example, when I see a soldier it's just a person in a military uniform; but introverted sensing (also) sees a true patriot.
 

Yama

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Introverted sensing is obviously conscious of the external world, but Intuition also senses the external world. So it's not to be confused with perception. "Records patterns it finds" is not accurate. There are no patterns in the external world except those we create. This is especially true of introverted sensing which already has the patterns. It then overlays the perceptions with these patterns which surround and illuminate the object in accordance with the subject's unconscious backdrop. For example, when I see a soldier it's just a person in a military uniform; but introverted sensing (also) sees a true patriot.

Introverted sensing compares its perception back to the archetypes it has created, but it does not judge them. Sensing and intuition are perceiving functions. The archetype it refers back to may see the person in uniform as a patriot, but whether that's a good or bad thing isn't for sensing to decide. That would be feeling or thinking.
 

the state i am in

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to me, the annoying thing about Pi is that it is ultimately semantic.

with that in mind, there is this sense that we Pi'ers remember the interpretation first and the actual experience less. all the associatedness IS what the thing is, rather than a construct, and rather than a higher order integration of a construct in a kind of statistical, inductive way. we forget the presence, the exploratory energy, that keeps us connected to the reality of the moment.

for me personally, Si is the only function i still have a lot of trouble with (in terms of fully connecting with in others or feeling really clear on what it would add to my own processes). there's a kind of weird feeling in it that feels inherently fundamentalist, whereas i like to keep more space open for swooping, emergent context and perspective to disclose new spaces. instead of this sense of like slicing thru the orders of information, there's this different way of it being absolute unto itself. the leveliness of perspective as an ongoing creation seems hard to maintain space for. there's a lot of attachment to details, when for me, context is privileged. i can see the messiness and sometimes wastefulness (efficiency-wise) of my way, and it can be tough to steady without a lot of self-observation and metacognition to pay attention to how the meaning is being made, but it's still hard for me to let go of to fully embrace Si.

i just don't understand how proportion and perspective really work with Si, at their best. and i know i find Si that isn't at its best pretty scary. all the false equivalences in the presidential campaigning, and not seeming to relate directly to the reality of the situation just kinda make my head spin, like we struggle to get to common denominators to do any kind of functional math.

with that said, many great sj contributions out there, to be sure. even if in other moments, the false equivalents and proportion issues allow the he-said she-said to replace reality really quick. and the general cognitive conservatism of Pi wanting to assume, to understand based on assuming and identifying so fully and at times blindly with its own assumptions, rather than creatively, critically examining. in the end, we are all using models to orient our understanding, but losing the dialectic between direct experiences misses one of the most crucial forms of error correction.
 

Mal12345

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Introverted sensing compares its perception back to the archetypes it has created, but it does not judge them. Sensing and intuition are perceiving functions. The archetype it refers back to may see the person in uniform as a patriot, but whether that's a good or bad thing isn't for sensing to decide. That would be feeling or thinking.

The term "patriot" automatically carries with it a positive value, a spontaneous, a-rational felt-sense that "this is good." The idea that any archetype has either a positive or negative connotation is seen in Jung's description of the Si type. It's easy to see that introverted sensing is very black-and-white because the archetype either white-washes the perception or paints it all black. There is no middle ground, no gray area.

The judgment you're referring to with the Si type will come from either extroverted feeling or extroverted thinking. Their judgments are not spontaneous and a-rational but calculated and thought-out. They do not bring with them a feeling but a thought. If something is considered good, then it is by conscious decision and not by a spontaneous feeling erupting into consciousness from unknown unconscious sources.

There is an ambiguity in your use of the word "created." While humans aren't born with the concept "patriot," neither is the concept found in reality. While I agree that the concept was created, it wasn't created by the individual but exists in the collective unconscious of mankind. Its subjective origin goes back to antiquity and beyond, it is mythological in nature and not rational as with conscious judgments.

To understand why "good" and "bad" archetypes are not rational judgments it is necessary to know the difference between mythos and logos. I searched and found this helpful site:
Mythos & Logos: Two Ways of Explaining the World | Journey to the Sea

Carl Jung also has a theory of mythos and logos, and you can see how he applies it to his theory of psychological types. Myths are social in nature, whereas reason is a trait of the individual. Just as each person has perceiving and judging functions, so each person's psyche consists of a combination of myths (concepts such as the "patriot") that come to us via social interactions and reasons that derive from the judging self.

So when you say that introverted sensing does not judge archetypes, you are correct, because the judgments were already there. They are a priori to the experience.
 

skimpit

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I don't see them taking it personally enough to call it a persecution complex...instead they may have an exaggeratedly fearful, negative view of reality, a sort of "what can go wrong WILL go wrong" viewpoint. But it's not like they think they are being personally targeted for some reason related to who they are. At least, that is not how they appear to me.

I have seen some with martyr complexes, but it's more like: "Nobody does as much as I do! I do all the work, get taken for granted, while others just slack off!".

It looks more like a grasshopper and ant scenario, where they resent the grasshopper for playing the summer away while they "sacrifice" their summer to prepare for hard times ahead, but in the end they will share their winter store with the grasshopper because they feel it's the right thing (but not without playing the martyr, grumbling about it, and laying endless guilt trips).

This is probably the most correct quote I've read on the subject. It's really like this.

However, I don't think the Si user is imagining things that aren't there, sir. Si is like experience painted over with memory. Something happens, and then it gets coated with the Si user's perception. So imagine a map of some kind or a wall. That's the obvious. But then it gets covered in whatever happened, and by that I mean the accumulated experience of the Si user. This isn't what they know or have gone through, but what they have perceived in it, and what they got from it - i.e. what they learned. It's like a repeating coat (this way of perception is). I guess it's like a graffiti wall, almost, and each person who paints on it is a representative of the past in memories of the Si user in question. Does that make sense? It's kind of convergent.

Like this: https://spacefiction.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/avatar.png
or http://www.topocreator.com/public/rg-stage1-3d.jpg

Si-Ne can be a very dangerous combination. It kind of takes on the form of a "me against the world" thing, more than a persecution complex. It's almost as if the user himself is separate from his function. He is the person, but the function is the one controlling all his moves. I don't know how to describe it. Maybe, if the world is a chess board, he is the chess piece. The chess board moves by itself, and the Si user has no choice but to go along. It doesn't mean he wants to, though. And he may try to change it if he is courageous enough. The world isn't necessarily bad, it's just not him. If it was a persecution complex, it'd be more like "the world is against me" or "the world is incompatible with my view (i.e. it doesn't understand it)". He wants to put his view to use, to put it into position. Having a persecution complex would be the opposite of that, because he'd never find a use for his thoughts.
 

Tater

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Does anybody know if the Si function is especially prone to being associated with a persecution complex? It seems like the two would go together very well in the same psyche. Because Si is the function that adds something to reality that's not really present, as in getting mad at a green light for turning red as if the traffic signal has some kind of personal agenda.

For example, I read this online:
IS THERE A TREATMENT FOR A PERSECUTION COMPLEX? - Anxiety - MedHelp
"I'm definitely one of those people with the insane persecution reactions. To this day, I have difficulty believing that a light that suddenly turns red on me did not deliberately try to mess with me. I regularly flame out of control, like this. So far, I believe that the only solution is to develop and practice an instant reaction to these flame-ups by telling myself, CALM DOWN."

This person is obviously imagining something that isn't there, as I would expect with the Si function.

No.
 
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