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Ne vs. Ni Imagination

Siúil a Rúin

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This is partly inspired by the thread that is examining the entire differences between the two intuitive functions. As a specific feature of these functions, it could be interesting to hear what people's imaginations are like. The questions are open-ended because there are no assumptions going into this. I look forward to hearing your responses!

Do you use Ne or Ni?

Describe your imagination!

Whoo-hoo! :bunnyglee:

(edit: I tagged a few people who I have interacted with recently, but I hope everyone will join in!)
 

ZNP-TBA

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Describing my imagination would be inappropriate for the forum.
 

Dreamer

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Describing my imagination would be inappropriate for the forum.

Lmfao Hahaha I umm... Can totally relate. I may reveal a little bit of that inappropriateness in the name of valued discussion here ;)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I'm not 100% sure if I'm Ne or Ni, so this post won't help in making sense of that, but I'll go first so that crazy has already happened. The impressions I get I don't exactly know what to make of them, so it isn't something I work on creating, although I have daydreamed intentionally as well. For an example of the spontaneous impressions, I don't "believe" in past lives, but I get impressions and memories just the same. I realize these could be metaphors like dreams, random ideas, or maybe there is more to reality than we think of rationally. I don't necessarily need to know what it means.

I remember being a little person in a circus who used a crystal ball, had helper monkeys, and admired the acrobats knowing I could never perform those stunts. I have this feeling I'm going to find my crystal ball again someday.

I also remember being a harpist in the early 1900s, being fairly affluent and in a romantic relationship with a racecar driver.

Once I was looking up at the sky relaxing at a cabin with a friend when suddenly I had this impression like a shock that someone from the future was looking back at me. I know its crazy, but what the hell is that? Why would such an idea even happen? Just random-imagination-happenstance? A metaphor for something internal?

Sometimes when sitting in public like a restaurant, and letting my mind lose focus, I start to see the entire emotional range of people who walk by. I see their facial expression and body movement for when they are angry, joyful, sad, etc. I get strong impressions that they are passive-aggressive, or act out, etc. Of course there is no way to verify it, so it is what it is.
 

Norrsken

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It's very consuming, for me. I let it swim and it takes my entire body, my world, my very existence. I get to somehow move my body on autopilot as my mind does it's thing, and it seems to be triggered by almost everything. The physical reality around me, the sounds I hear, the way people look, what I saw in a movie last night, where I am going in the future. I use it for problem solving, for fun, and to push myself to accept other realities that may feel strange or even uncomfortable, but otherwise aiding my self growth to become a better person. I love letting it loose especially when I listen to music. I like to use it to time travel, to figure out someone's intention, and to get away from a very tiring situation.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Describing my imagination would be inappropriate for the forum.

Lmfao Hahaha I umm... Can totally relate. I may reveal a little bit of that inappropriateness in the name of valued discussion here ;)
Could you describe if the imaginative ideas are ones you create on purpose, if they just come to you, if they are structured, elaborate, and interconnected, or fragmentary bits? Do they relate at all to the external world as extensions of it like the facial expression thing I get, or is it a completely internally created cartoon? Stuff like that helps even if the content is too :happy2:
 

magpie

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I use Ni pretty far down in my stacking. This is an interesting question. I'm not sure I can even describe what my imagination is like because it's not something I consciously think about, nor do I enter into a place of self-awareness where I think "Oh, I'm using my imagination right now." The way my thought process functions doesn't even really feel like imagination. Even when I am imagining, there is a goal in mind (like to know the personality/life of a character I'm playing) and the process feels analytical. It's deduction or induction based (or some form of duction).

Not sure what kind of answer this is really, over than inadequate.
 

Forever

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Ni is automatic and present for me. I am reacted upon the external object and taken where I need to go. (it's a subjective function, dislike it when people say that Ni is objective, it isn't.) My Ni is something that constantly needs to be attuned by Fe and Ti and Se lest it gets out of reality.

I thank this function for without it, I wouldn't go through the rapid bouts of maturity without it. I see it as a function that can see the irony of things from a detached perspective. Hence why I laugh about many things people don't think are funny, some may even find it awful.

It brings me a sense of joy and wonder to know, that life is just a journey. That's really where my imagination stems from.
 

ZNP-TBA

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Could you describe if the imaginative ideas are ones you create on purpose, if they just come to you, if they are structured, elaborate, and interconnected, or fragmentary bits? Do they relate at all to the external world as extensions of it like the facial expression thing I get, or is it a completely internally created cartoon? Stuff like that helps even if the content is too :happy2:

My imagination is more like an extrapolation of reality. It's a 'modified' reality but doesn't completely detach itself from the real world. I'm more science fiction than pure fantasy if that makes sense. Pure fantasy is like magic and proposes imaginary things are virtually impossible to ever formulate or exist in reality while Sci-Fi imagines up things that can technically be possible in some (often future) reality.
 

ZNP-TBA

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I'm not 100% sure if I'm Ne or Ni, so this post won't help in making sense of that, but I'll go first so that crazy has already happened. The impressions I get I don't exactly know what to make of them, so it isn't something I work on creating, although I have daydreamed intentionally as well. For an example of the spontaneous impressions, I don't "believe" in past lives, but I get impressions and memories just the same. I realize these could be metaphors like dreams, random ideas, or maybe there is more to reality than we think of rationally. I don't necessarily need to know what it means.

I remember being a little person in a circus who used a crystal ball, had helper monkeys, and admired the acrobats knowing I could never perform those stunts. I have this feeling I'm going to find my crystal ball again someday.

I also remember being a harpist in the early 1900s, being fairly affluent and in a romantic relationship with a racecar driver.

Once I was looking up at the sky relaxing at a cabin with a friend when suddenly I had this impression like a shock that someone from the future was looking back at me. I know its crazy, but what the hell is that? Why would such an idea even happen? Just random-imagination-happenstance? A metaphor for something internal?

Sometimes when sitting in public like a restaurant, and letting my mind lose focus, I start to see the entire emotional range of people who walk by. I see their facial expression and body movement for when they are angry, joyful, sad, etc. I get strong impressions that they are passive-aggressive, or act out, etc. Of course there is no way to verify it, so it is what it is.

Wow you really pay attention to the detail in your imagination. I don't really do this. Maybe that's just a 'me' and 'you' thing but maybe it's Ne and Ni related. Based on your posts so far and the fact I know virtually nothing about you :D I'd say you're probably an Ni dom.
 

CitizenErased

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Uh, it’s so difficult! I’ll try to organize how I see my imagination leaving aside what I see with it (edit: I filled it with examples). I use Ne.

ONE-WORD SUMMARY: Unfolding/Fractal/Organic



ANALOGY: “The Neverending Story”

-Example: A leads to Aa, Ab and Ac; Aa leads to Aa1, Aa2, Aa3… the same with the others until Brain collapses. Like following hyperlinks and opening tabs and tabs and tabs of circumstantial information that at some point becomes more important than the original idea. Grows in different directions at the same time and is able to make connection between branches that have nothing to do with each other. This is why I have trouble speaking most of the time: my mouth picks parts of each idea going on in my mind at the time and the result is horrendous.

RELIES ON: percepted experiences (memories, shapes, sounds, texture, taste, smell, concepts –I don’t know if for others the 5 senses are important, but my mental creations need to be felt by all of them… I wish ideas could be loaded into flashdrives, so others could “feel” the idea themselves) and ability to deconstruct the objects into pieces, isolate these pieces, distort them and apply them to everything.

-Example 1: Imagine a person, recall their voice, isolate the voice and have fun applying it to random people, or objects.

-Example 2: I listen to a song, I like the bassline, I can “turn off” the rest of the instruments in my mind and build a new melody on it.

-Example 3: I write stories and novels (all unfinished, sadly) and I like “living” the characters in my head, so I grab a grey 3d model of a human body and I customize it until I feel its exterior matches the personality I want it to have.

FORMULAS:

1. Percepted experiences (real component) + completely new situation (possibly nonsensical –either humorous or dramatic) = metaphors (something as something else), or extrapolation (concepts applied to stuff it shouldn’t be applied to).

–Example: once a friend was telling me about her drama with her boyfriend but was adding many details about her sex life I din’t want to know about, so I asked her if she could treat her lady parts as parentheticals: if she took away what happened in between them I could understand the story all the same.

2. Note: likes engaging in abstract concepts as long as it can apply them to weird stuff and create its little monsters. Abstract ideas that remain pure, like Plato’s, are boring, time-consuming.

3. Zero judgement about its little monster creation: everything can be used for everything. –Example: the friend who introduced me to MBTI (also INTP) told me the story of a metal band who had a real goat head on stage. This happened like a year ago. Every time something good/bad/weird happens, it’s the goat’s fault. By now, we have a thick “Catalogue of goats and sayings”, which is complete nonsense, yet every time we read it we laugh ourselves to tears -> “Goationary (n.): Second part of this book that includes concepts not related to goats. It is called “Goationary” because, eventually, everything has to do with goats.”

4. Never knowing when it’s enough. Truth: it never is.

FAVOURITE QUESTIONS: “Why not?”/ “I wonder what would happen if…”

FOR IMAGES/WRITTEN IDEAS: Images in my mind are actually 3D. I zoom them in and out, change the “camera’s” place, change illumination, characters, furniture, landscape. Details are essential. If I’m thinking of a scene I want to draw or describe, my mind has to provide an accurate render: where things are positioned, whether they have dust on it, fingerprints, etc. Then I start wondering why I want a fingerprint to be on the coffee table, so then I imagine a previous scene of someone touching the coffee table to place some papers on it, and then I wonder what those papers say, and then I imagine the papers, the font they’re written with, and then I wonder who wrote them and why they chose that font and what’s their life story… and it continues till forever. My imagination process goes backwards. I imagine first the scene I want and then I build the story by asking a why and a what-if for every single cm squared of image I’ve thought about.

I sense my description deviated to the “creation” part of imagination. Aristotle’s phantasia (imagination) was related to the ability of bringing back to the mind “archives” (memories) we had previously collected. I think, as I mentioned above, that my way of doing that is through metaphors. I probably fail to speak literally because I think with metaphors and “potentials” (as in “this is like this, but it could be like…” –it may be possible or completely nonsensical… more likely nonsensical).

I hope this helps! If I have another idea about my imagination process, I'll edit this post.
 

Totenkindly

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Sometimes my imagination rockets off in different directions, springboarding from one thing rapidly to the next.

And then sometimes when I look at something, I see something underneath it all (or its "true form / essence" -- a different being/image that captures what I'm looking at, or flashes of "what's really going on").
 

Obfuscate

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Ne is a "given" for intp...

my thought process is a series of words, not all of which are connected in a concrete way... as i look at things a series of words "connect" to everything in my enviroment (some as single words and others as phrases)... after the identifying words are attached, odds begin to fall into place... i.e. i walk into my mother's house and see a dog... phrases that connect: short, black, white, pheobe, excited, friendly, watch your feet, close the door, etc... after that i think: she will step on my feet 60%, she will step in front of me while i walk 95%, she rolled in something stinky 5%, etc...

when i am imagining something it happens like this... i sense something in my environment and one of the "connected words" is one that relates to something else... for our example we will use pheobe again... pheobe->friendly<-rainbow gathering=what would it be like to take pheobe to a rainbow gathering... at this point a series of words pops up that are shared by the two... then a series of words that don't relate to either may pop up ("contrast words")... from this point the words would begin to fit into prior experiences... i would think of how pheobe would fit into my prior experiences at a rainbow gathering... at this point my thoughts could form a picture (most often this takes effort and is very detailed), but they are (much) more likely to create a story (with attached odds)... anyhow, this all happens in a matter of seconds (2-7)... things that my mind links: things in the environment, possibilities, things in the past... these could be objects, ideas, conversations, or anything else really... i will bounce between various chains rapidly, and at times look for ways to connect the chains of thought together... anyhow, that is how my imagination works...

post script: it would be fun to take pheobe to a rainbow gathering... i think that people would enjoy her, and she would enjoy them also... i would need a leash for her because she likes to fight other dogs (there is 35% odd that i would need to break up a dog fight)... she is getting old, so i would need to be careful not to keep her to busy... my brother had this idea first, so it would be nice to do it with him... there is a regional in washington soon, so i should make this happen (and my brother is planning to go)...

post post script: the greater number of "connecting words", the more likely it is that i will connect the two thoughts...
 

geedoenfj

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I'm an Ni, my imagination is more of an escape from harsh reality to a parallel world..
I am very artistic, I love creativity and originality in every thing around me, I am a music addict, specially classic music and movies because they take me to that world with all these emotions and lovely feelings that I want to carry with me wherever I go, I get to choose best elements of the past and present, combine them together in order to enrich this world..
In that place, I'm living all things that I miss or lack in reality, soothing myself, rearranging my feelings and thoughts, find a peaceful and safe spot for a little while..
 

Obfuscate

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-Example: A leads to Aa, Ab and Ac; Aa leads to Aa1, Aa2, Aa3… the same with the others until Brain collapses. Like following hyperlinks and opening tabs and tabs and tabs of circumstantial information that at some point becomes more important than the original idea. Grows in different directions at the same time and is able to make connection between branches that have nothing to do with each other. This is why I have trouble speaking most of the time: my mouth picks parts of each idea going on in my mind at the time and the result is horrendous.

RELIES ON: ability to deconstruct the objects into pieces, isolate these pieces, distort them and apply them to everything.

FORMULAS:

1. Percepted experiences (real component) + completely new situation (possibly nonsensical –either humorous or dramatic) = metaphors (something as something else), or extrapolation (concepts applied to stuff it shouldn’t be applied to).

2. Note: likes engaging in abstract concepts it can apply them to weird stuff and create its little monsters.

3. Zero judgement about its little monster creation: everything can be used for everything.

4. Never knowing when it’s enough. Truth: it never is.

FAVOURITE QUESTIONS: “Why not?”/ “I wonder what would happen if…”

I sense my description deviated to the “creation” part of imagination. Aristotle’s phantasia (imagination) was related to the ability of bringing back to the mind “archives” (memories) we had previously collected. I think, as I mentioned above, that my way of doing that is through metaphors. I probably fail to speak literally because I think with metaphors and “potentials” (as in “this is like this, but it could be like…” –it may be possible or completely nonsensical… more likely nonsensical).

these portions could apply to the way i think... i chopped out words here and there, but added none...
 
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Honestly, I'm not sure whether I use Ne as an INFP or Ni as an ISFP, but my imagination is a very intricate part of my daily life since I was a little girl. I'm not going to go into too much specific detail, but I'll try explaining as best as I can.

Ever since I was little, I always imagined an alternate world and would continue it each day as a series of events like in a television show. I usually would escape into this world at night in bed before I fall asleep. I also would imagine myself becoming a larger than life person, like if I was in the real world and could just imagine what it would be like if I could do something cool like a million back flips to try to impress people. I know, sounds lame, haha.

And now, even as an adult, I still imagine a whole alternate world and play it in my head every day, but instead with a totally different concept because I outgrew the other world I was in when I was young. I currently have a few different scenarios I like to envision. They usually involve me and a bunch of made up characters and what my idealized life would be like in the near future. It's not really a fantasy genre like Harry Potter, but more something that can happen in real life, but won't if that makes any sense. Like a story that is fiction, but played out like it's reality. I also listen to music to help color the storyline too. I have a whole playlist dedicated to my fantasy world on my phone, and still add or change the order of songs to accompany the storyline I have in mind. This is so that I can always go back to a specific song and replay a certain scene or try a different outcome that I may prefer better. The sad thing is, I know it will never happen in reality, but it's still my own little world that makes me happy to escape to every time when I can. :)

Additionally, in real life circumstances such as being invited to a special event somewhere, I would get really excited about the event and envision what I would ideally like to happen. Like I would meet my soul mate or just be desired by someone in general. And I usually would be hesitant to go because I know from life experience everything would not play out like how I envisioned, so I become disappointed. Gosh I sound so lame. XD

Anyways, if anyone can relate to this somewhat and maybe point out if it's Ne or Ni that is occurring, that would be very helpful. I would assume it's Ne due to the possibilities and series of events I play out in my mind, but I'm just too detail oriented in real life like an ISFP, so I'm not completely sure...
 

á´…eparted

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I'm an Ni, my imagination is more of an escape from harsh reality to a parallel world.

I think this captures it fairly well for me as well.

I was a very imaginative child. I was constantly acting out stories, talking with imaginary friends, playing all sorts of make believe games, and imagining seeing things in front of me that weren't actually there. I do that significantly less as I am older (as nearly everyone does), but it's still a part of me. Sometimes I'll just imagine fantasy scenarios and worlds because it's fun, other times it's to de-stress.

I was actually doing this yesterday. Years back I saw a dramaticized comic of a man going through college, as if it were a lord of the rings or D&D esque journey. Fighting monsters that were the personifcation of calculus, biology, exams, etc. It was a cool concept. I recently completed a bit report that summarized my work over the past year (I'm in grad school), and as I was walking to downtown, I was imagining myself in that sort of fantasy setting. I saw the PhD "world" as being farther up in space, out in the distance from the undergrad worlds. I was in a dungeon fighting of a monster that just wouldn't die. For years fighting it and it would keep getting back up. I saw myself as battle-scarred and emotionally broken. My adviser then warped in as a hologram like wizard and helped me get back up and would say to me "look how far you came. Look in the mirror at yourself, you're strong, you have come so far, you have all the abilities, you know what you have to do. Keep going, you will defeat this". It was very satisfying to dive into that for a while, and while I was in it, I had no visual memory of where I was walking around outside because I was so in my head.

That's a pretty good illustration of how my imagination works. It was much more detailed in my head, and I could write it out but the post would get too big. Since I am an Fe user, there is usually a lot of emotion, feeling, and passion behind the things I imagine. They are seldom unfeeling. I like to think of it as "fantasy rooted in reality". Often, it will surround my real life events in some personified manner. Othertimes, there's no connection and I just create a world. I have been taking advantage of this world creating as I have been working on the D&D campaign I am going to be running for my friends in a week or so. I've written around 300 pages of material describing the world. In many ways, it's an escape. Reality is honestly pretty boring to me, and I wish the world was much more fantastic and grand. It's a reason why I explore psychedelic drugs.

I'm not sure how this connects to Ni, but one difference I have noticed between Ni and Ne in this regard is that Ni's imagination tends to be more structured, but much more distant and slow.
 

Luv Deluxe

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Ni-dom here.

My imagination is sharp, constant, and sudden in the ways that it presents ideas to me. Wholly formed scenarios usually pop into my head, complete with details and dialogue that I don't need to focus on coloring in (it's already there). When I mentally move past those ideas and daydreams, I have a harder time remembering every tiny element, or those elements become less important; they tend to leave impressions, or one very clear realization in their wake instead.

I am drawn to concept albums and stories that have noir elements, plot lines that fold back on themselves to close some loop or tie up a theme. I'm attracted to symbols and characters that represent very personal concepts. Tropes favored by pop culture at large, positive though they may be, do less for me. I sometimes (not always) favor unpopular or troublesome characters if their attached meaning resonates strongly enough on a subjective level.

My creativity is not of the "brainstorming" variety. I generally come to the party with an endgame in mind, knowing what I want to say or how I'd like a story to end. I then find myself arranging all of the pieces in very deliberate ways in order to convey that message, with all of these elements combining to make something streamlined and perfect.

I feel my thoughts coming out more slowly than my Ne friends' ideas. They are incessant, just...more like a steady stream of large bubbles frothing up from a very deep spring.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm Ne or Ni, so this post won't help in making sense of that, but I'll go first so that crazy has already happened. The impressions I get I don't exactly know what to make of them, so it isn't something I work on creating, although I have daydreamed intentionally as well. For an example of the spontaneous impressions, I don't "believe" in past lives, but I get impressions and memories just the same. I realize these could be metaphors like dreams, random ideas, or maybe there is more to reality than we think of rationally. I don't necessarily need to know what it means.

I remember being a little person in a circus who used a crystal ball, had helper monkeys, and admired the acrobats knowing I could never perform those stunts. I have this feeling I'm going to find my crystal ball again someday.

I also remember being a harpist in the early 1900s, being fairly affluent and in a romantic relationship with a racecar driver.

I honestly don't know what this is.

I think in fully-formed pictures - sometimes so strongly that these pictures feel like memories of things that actually happened - but there's not really a sensation about or focus on the past at all for me, temporally speaking. I get flashes of things constantly, but I feel extremely disconnected from history and consequently I tend to apply whatever I'm thinking about to the present and future.

I love symbols, and I do believe in intersecting themes that circle back and overlap just perfectly, but I'm also something of a realist. While I was in the chair for two hours, my tattoo artist and I were talking about dream symbols. When I told her mine (tornadoes, very often), she suggested that maybe I'd been killed in a tornado in a previous life and therefore see them all the time now as some kind of residual side effect. Personally, I find the idea a little silly (though I'll entertain it politely). My tornadoes are definitely a very big symbol, but I believe they're my internal chaos and apocalyptic anxiety, and they show up whenever I haven't been adequately dealing with those feelings. So, a lot.

I dunno, though. I don't mean to undermine something you might feel to be true in some way. I guess I just lean more heavily on the metaphor side of the fence, myself.

labyrinthine said:
Once I was looking up at the sky relaxing at a cabin with a friend when suddenly I had this impression like a shock that someone from the future was looking back at me. I know its crazy, but what the hell is that? Why would such an idea even happen? Just random-imagination-happenstance? A metaphor for something internal?

This one does happen to me. The "someone from the future looking back" is always me, though, not an outside entity. Time feels fluid to me, always has, and I usually get this sensation either right before I'm about to do something stressful or during a prolonged moment of absolute ecstasy. It's like I'm teleporting ahead to a time wherein this moment has already slid past, and I feel future-me thinking about the present of current-me, about the moment I'm physically occupying, right here right now.

Sometimes it's explicitly clear in ways that are almost...stupidly stereotypical, insofar as how lazy descriptions think Ni performs. It often happens when I'm trying to get a nice sports highlight (for work). It's easy to stress about not having a goal yet, or needing to have something interesting to show later (for broadcast or whatever the case may be). More than once, though, I've gotten that "looking-back-on-now" sensation and had the thought, "Oh, btw, this is totally when you got that sweet goal tonight, well done." And then it happens.

I suspect that this is a kind of subconscious awareness, driven or fed by one's surroundings, that just sort of funnels into a gut feeling or moment of dissociation, but I really don't know. It probably just sounds like I'm vomiting words uselessly because the truth is that I really can't explain or figure out what causes this.

labyrinthine said:
Sometimes when sitting in public like a restaurant, and letting my mind lose focus, I start to see the entire emotional range of people who walk by. I see their facial expression and body movement for when they are angry, joyful, sad, etc. I get strong impressions that they are passive-aggressive, or act out, etc. Of course there is no way to verify it, so it is what it is.

Good observation skills, haha. Maybe take up writing, if you don't already.
 

Dreamer

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I'm not 100% sure if I'm Ne or Ni, so this post won't help in making sense of that, but I'll go first so that crazy has already happened. The impressions I get I don't exactly know what to make of them, so it isn't something I work on creating, although I have daydreamed intentionally as well. For an example of the spontaneous impressions, I don't "believe" in past lives, but I get impressions and memories just the same. I realize these could be metaphors like dreams, random ideas, or maybe there is more to reality than we think of rationally. I don't necessarily need to know what it means.

I remember being a little person in a circus who used a crystal ball, had helper monkeys, and admired the acrobats knowing I could never perform those stunts. I have this feeling I'm going to find my crystal ball again someday.

I also remember being a harpist in the early 1900s, being fairly affluent and in a romantic relationship with a racecar driver.

Once I was looking up at the sky relaxing at a cabin with a friend when suddenly I had this impression like a shock that someone from the future was looking back at me. I know its crazy, but what the hell is that? Why would such an idea even happen? Just random-imagination-happenstance? A metaphor for something internal?

Sometimes when sitting in public like a restaurant, and letting my mind lose focus, I start to see the entire emotional range of people who walk by. I see their facial expression and body movement for when they are angry, joyful, sad, etc. I get strong impressions that they are passive-aggressive, or act out, etc. Of course there is no way to verify it, so it is what it is.

I actually confuse memories and thoughts very often myself. I will often have internal dialogs with someone, perhaps an argument I emotionally want to happen but in actuality, I don't, so it doesn't happen. But give it enough time, and that internal, imagined scene with that person can sometimes blend with actual memories and I can sometimes forget if a conversation I had with someone was real or not. Perhaps it's related to intuition? But I feel it's more tied to how vivid your imaginations can be, with the sort of emotional impression that imagination may have left, like with the argument example above, that could leave a very real emotional impression on me, as if it really happened, and so I think this is where the line can blur, between actual memory, and imagined reality. Whenever you tie an emotion to a memory, be it real or imagined, it becomes stronger than simply storing it as flat data. And as time passes and memories lose their clarity, who's to really say, which "realities" are even real and which ones were simply imagined?
 
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