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  1. #11
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    The above video applies of course to both INTJ and INFJ, although there could be some feeling of it being more of an NF description. My theory about what happens in the INFJ description, what makes it so irregular, is that it is difficult to grasp Ni and to make meaningful sense of it, so some descriptions rely on Fe or Ti to describe the INFJ and just add a little Ni spice to the mix to show that it isn't exactly like an ISFJ or an INTP or ISTP. I suspect there is a tendency to want to broaden the category so it has more meaning as a personality option. If you hold it to exactly what Jung says, then it becomes more rare and loses meaning for most of us, because how many people know someone who has a "snake in their abdomen"? People who talk like that are considered possibly mentally ill, really off, and avoided and forgotten. I can see reason to broaden the category beyond what Jung describes, but what typically happens is that the concept of Ni gets mostly abandoned because it feels almost useless in getting a sense of how someone is going to behave. We can also ask if Jung's concept of the Ni-dom actually is too esoteric. Are there enough people like that to make it a meaningless category?
    Well, it's my understanding that in developing his theories Jung was observing extreme cases of each of the types/cognitive ways of thought. So clinically I believe these people were, well, extreme, and thus not necessarily representative of the population at large. I think it makes total sense that it's easiest to observe and quantify a particular state via studying the extreme, as you're not getting muddled with other things that are counteracting, but I don't think these people he observed were very differentiated. I am guessing they were either unwilling or unable/incapable of getting outside of their own modes/ego states (and again, that too is the perfect way to 'see' a function in the raw).

    I think a lot of people don't really fit these clinical examples -- though we try to and get frustrated if we can't precisely 100% fit into a particular archetype. Also it can make real-world typing more difficult because many people may not be sitting in a pure archetype/ego state and are in fact willing/able to extend outwards to other modes of being, thus you see different behaviors, stereotypes being broken, all sorts of things that add to the confusion of typing in the real world. I mean practically speaking that's why Preferences are always stressed -- because most of us do in fact have preferences. It's just over time, through integrating with society, learning, experiencing, all of that, we may not be totally locked into a 'pure' way of being any longer. (And who says we HAVE to be? Also these are only 16 possible archetypes -- it's one way of categorization. There are others.)
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  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Some additional thoughts I had....

    It is always easier for me to grasp in comparison to my own thinking.
    So this reminds me of how to the outside eye, an Introveted Feeling type may not appear to be a Feeling type at all. And the more introverted they are, the more extreme this can be. Feeling is given more expression when Pe is developed. Even still, the depth of the Feeling is mostly embodied by the individual rather than directly communicated. It shows up in their life focus, their general worldview, etc.

    So I would say the same is true with Ni. Whatever "craziness" is associated with iNtuitiom is readily apparent in a Ne type, who may liberally use metaphor and symbolism and express and explore ideas as they arise, but it may be more hidden in a Ni type, especially their depth. Instead the person may use their aux to express it, and it may be demonstrated more in their whole person - they will embody their intuitions. I think this is why Ni is associated more with a steering "vision" and even with personal transformations. I hear them talk a lot of "inner shifts" which affect the outcome of their envisioned goals.
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  3. #13
    Junior Member astrotheologian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    The above video applies of course to both INTJ and INFJ, although there could be some feeling of it being more of an NF description. My theory about what happens in the INFJ description, what makes it so irregular, is that it is difficult to grasp Ni and to make meaningful sense of it, so some descriptions rely on Fe or Ti to describe the INFJ and just add a little Ni spice to the mix to show that it isn't exactly like an ISFJ or an INTP or ISTP. I suspect there is a tendency to want to broaden the category so it has more meaning as a personality option. If you hold it to exactly what Jung says, then it becomes more rare and loses meaning for most of us, because how many people know someone who has a "snake in their abdomen"? People who talk like that are considered possibly mentally ill, really off, and avoided and forgotten. I can see reason to broaden the category beyond what Jung describes, but what typically happens is that the concept of Ni gets mostly abandoned because it feels almost useless in getting a sense of how someone is going to behave. We can also ask if Jung's concept of the Ni-dom actually is too esoteric. Are there enough people like that to make it a meaningless category? I have a new friend who is an older lady (80 years old) who I think may be a classic example of a Ni-dom INFJ. She won't wear black because the "vibrational energy weighs her down too much". She is extremely right-brained and has zero aspects of what we often think of "J"s as being. She is the opposite of the Type A personality, she is entirely unstructured, but lives in this abstract world of metaphorical impressions. Anyway, this is worth discussing and finding out some opposing ideas about it.
    Although this is old, researching how others describe Ni brought me here. This is a great thread! Unfortunately, I happen to be the extreme type of Ni dom sort of like the 81 year old lady. ..and the kind Jung described in his video. I think people in the starseed/indigo communities who believe they are here on a mission to raise the vibrations or believe they're here to evolve for specific purposes have Ni in the dom or aux. (I'm not speaking of those who think they are exclusively such as such in order to feel special.) I speak of people like me who naturally feel or think as though we know with certainty that the Orion Wars happened or knowing about the invisible puppet masters. Of course, in this day and age, most of us hide in our preferred circle because we are looked at as crazy in the material world. We are the ones who describe the universe in energies, astrological cycles, make predictions about the future of humanity & etc.

    I think in the less extreme cases of Ni doms, they go on to make great psychologists and pick up on the intangible workings of the everyday person or persons.
    As someone else stated here, I too, live my life through a lense of metaphorical energies & intensive perception. I know that what I'm experiencing and what I know it's real.. However, it can't be described in the material world without being deemed as crazy..and what is crazy, anyways? Living in a matrix, following every order, being subtly manipulated by unseen forces & recognizing the manipulative patterns of the invisible puppet masters is crazy, in my opinion. For me, Ni means to know the truth..and if one dare speak it, one would be called crazy for speaking the ultimate truth..which unfortunately will be hidden from society/humanity until it's too late.
    I tell people not to compare themselves to extreme cases such as me because in everyday life, Ni isn't so extreme.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrotheologian View Post
    if one dare speak it, one would be called crazy for speaking the ultimate truth..which unfortunately will be hidden from society/humanity until it's too late.
    What's the ultimate truth? Or is that what you described before about the puppet-masters?


    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    But, since he tends to rely exclusively upon his vision, his moral effort becomes one-sided; he makes himself and his life symbolic, adapted, it is true, to the inner and eternal meaning of events, but unadapted to the actual present-day reality. Therewith he also deprives himself of any influence upon it
    I went through a period like that. It was encouraged by a religious movement that was going on when I was younger. It might still be; I don't know. But I definitely developed my use of Ni during that time. It was certainly personal effort due to cultural context, same as if I wanted to practice and become good at a different skill. I'm sure that if I had been raised in an environment that encouraged Ni, I would have developed it more from birth. On the other hand, I was raised in an environment that encouraged a lot of skills that I never really have developed, so I might have more of a natural relationship with Ni than I have with, say, Te--or it might just be that I actually "applied myself" to developing Ni for a time. I think it's little bit of both, because it's easier for me to get "lost" in my mind than to ride an extended wave of extraverted personal efficacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    To what extent does historical and cultural context influence the expression of Ni?
    I think cultural context can influence not just the expression but also the development of Ni. I'm sure there are more and less Ni-predisposed people, but if more people were culturally Ni-developed, then the people who have the highest predispositions to Ni would probably be a lot more at home expressing it, and integrating it with other aspects of life.

    Just like Mariobanana.
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  5. #15
    Junior Member astrotheologian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metis View Post
    What's the ultimate truth? Or is that what you described before about the puppet-masters?




    I went through a period like that. It was encouraged by a religious movement that was going on when I was younger. It might still be; I don't know. But I definitely developed my use of Ni during that time. It was certainly personal effort due to cultural context, same as if I wanted to practice and become good at a different skill. I'm sure that if I had been raised in an environment that encouraged Ni, I would have developed it more from birth. On the other hand, I was raised in an environment that encouraged a lot of skills that I never really have developed, so I might have more of a natural relationship with Ni than I have with, say, Te--or it might just be that I actually "applied myself" to developing Ni for a time. I think it's little bit of both, because it's easier for me to get "lost" in my mind than to ride an extended wave of extraverted personal efficacy.



    I think cultural context can influence not just the expression but also the development of Ni. I'm sure there are more and less Ni-predisposed people, but if more people were culturally Ni-developed, then the people who have the highest predispositions to Ni would probably be a lot more at home expressing it, and integrating it with other aspects of life.

    Just like Mariobanana.
    When I said, "ultimate truth" I mean according to how the Ni user takes it in. Things just "appear" as the case.. sometimes without immediate evidence..and also .. yes, I did mean similar to the invisible puppet masters thingy.
    I'm considered mentally ill but I guess life appears more interesting this way..

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrotheologian View Post
    When I said, "ultimate truth" I mean according to how the Ni user takes it in. Things just "appear" as the case.. sometimes without immediate evidence..and also .. yes, I did mean similar to the invisible puppet masters thingy.
    That is, whom I always suspected !!

  7. #17
    Honeyed Water thoughtlost's Avatar
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    I can only explain introverted intuition as I see it occurring people I know, so I'll try to connect it to Jung's descriptions.

    It's possible that people who study the functions can blow up what Ni is. It is not as esoteric as people think it is, but the fact that they are so aware of what is going on around them is ...something I don't notice all that much ...even as I am aware of what the Ni dom is aware of.

    From observation, I see Ni (INFJs) users are often trying to understand what is going on around them in terms of a larger group. In a sense, I feel like they notice what the people are doing, but in a broad sense (at least that is what their mental facilities focus on). For example, an iNFJ will note the tone of the majority. They notice what the political climate is like, they may notice what "everyone" in their social group (this can include even their family as the sole social environment) is doing. Is every getting married?? Is everyone pushing a certain set of values (so as an example: an Ni dom will notice that everyone believes in marriage as a sign of true love ...while the INFJ is above that and will see that people are only marrying for financial gain and not some idea of "true love". I guess they are "seers" in that sense. INFJ is aware of what social trends are out there (they are aware that everyone is into apple products or buys into the "one needs to travel to be cultured" hype). They are always questioning society in this sense. But again, it's not really all that abstract, it's just a hyper awareness of what is going on in "society" and having the ability to articulate in a clear manner.

    TL;DR: they will see how everything fits into a broader context of humans ...your desire to drink coffee... will fit into some societal framework (I.E. we are a career obsessed society).


    Idk. but these are my thoughts for now. I am procrastinating on the work I need to do ...so I will come back to this.
    You are so arbitrary.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member great_bay's Avatar
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    Ni foresees the implication. Ni foresees what's going to happened. I use this as my 6th functions. I notices how I use it with Ne. Ne foresees all the possibilities and Ni foresees what's going to happen. I find Ni useful but I am baffled by people who use it 95% of the same as their dominate function such as INTJ.
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  9. #19
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    Cultural context can influence the development of Ni? Interesting theory. But I wonder how to test it.

  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Here: Taking it again from the top: Root defintions of the functions I had proposed single one word terms for the functional perspectives, and while for Ni, "forbodance" (a partly made up word) might come off as too potentially negative, perhaps a better term would be "hunchery" (also partly made up, as it only seems to be associated with a Doobie Bothers song). As I've said, it's not just about "foreseeing" the future.
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