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[MBTI General] Interest in the MBTI is a Sign of Alienation or Self-Estrangement

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Thalassa

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Thank you for your thoughtful contribution.

And your thoughtful contribution does open the door to leaving alienation and self estrangement behind and becoming at home in our own skin.

Thank you, but I'm not even sure anymore that the Internet can ever foster a better level of emotional or social health. While it may stimulate people intellectually and some people actually use this to learn, it seems to me that this atmosphere will just make emotionally unhealthy people even more emotionally unhealthy. ..or simply lock them in place, like a hamster wheel of sorts, stranding them wherever they are in their emotional or social development, whether that be adolescent polemics, or prim authoritarian moderation ...two sides of the same coin, really, people childlike in either their conformity or rebellion. ..and the problem is that people are drawing from the same stagnant pool of surface emotions (without the nuances of body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, and human touch) so how could anyone. ..including myself ..."heal" in such a social environment?

Also, maybe it's partly physical. Maybe the more removed humans become from nature, the more insane they become.

I'm not romanticizing tribal life, but there is a condition known as "techno-despair" which can make people depressed, irritable, even angry by spending too much time on technology. ..and some studies have shown people in cultures who materially have less than Americans as a whole, are actually emotionally or spiritually happier.

Always nice talking with you Mole.
 

S16M4

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Good thread. I agree with it for the most part.

This understanding of Typology is inline with my Ti. half joking.
 

Cloudpatrol

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What is interesting is that while mbti is a sign of alienation and self estrangement, this is met by forced humour and trivialisation.

We have met this response of forced humour and trivialisation in the response to feminism.

It is plain that the thought of our own alienation and self estrangement and is too much for us to bear, so instead of responding rationally, we respond viscerally with a sad forced humour and a vicious trivialisation.

But tragically, the forced humour is at our expense, and we are trivialising our own pain and suffering.


Hi [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]. It's taken me time to weigh pursuing this conversation.

Personally, I used humour that wasn't forced, but came easily. I like laughing. Like my avatar says, sometimes I "just want to have fun".


I also see the value in (and practice) self-examination and feeling pain/suffering, as you say. Digging into it. Humour also has value. You seem like a well-read individual. So, I think it's likely you are familiar with studies that show: laughter can be akin to medicine in treating emotional and physical conditions.
[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION], I enjoyed several of your points. It's true that alienation is probably INEVITABLE if one seeks primary interaction through virtual means. Real life interaction (speaking, touching, eye contact...) is a need hard-wired into us. Babies deprived of those things literally fail to thrive.


Mole, this was the question that began this interchange:


No offence, but if the MBTI bothers you this much.. :thinking: then why do you stick around here?
I'm honestly curious, hope this question isn't rude to ask, I'm genuinely wondering.


I have wondered this myself. Frequently.

I understand you were invited (and don't think the question is meant to imply you don't have a "place" here). In fact, the question is not meant with any personal malice or bad intent, but reflects genuine lack of knowledge on my part.

I literally just don't understand it :shrug: and would welcome the chance to grow - through shared comprehension. I know you advocate personal growth and seeking understanding.



ie. I personally don't share the ideals of change-through-violence. So, I most likely wouldn't spend much time on a site whose name was based on that ideology or devote my time trying to dissuade the member's. Based on marketing and psychology I realize that would not be very effective & there are better ways to spend my time.

I would also not be surprised :thinking:when the majority of the site's member's expressed varying degrees of belief in accomplishing change-through-violence. The site's theme likely attracted member's in the first place.

IF I was to stumble in, I wouldn't make broad statements that assumed commonalities among people that might in fact not exist at all. Because it would limit the ability of people to relate to me and my own opportunities for learning.

More likely: I would live by example, ask individuals specific questions to tailor our conversations and LISTEN...


I would be open to still learning and possibly expanding my own view as well
. My questions would not just be open-ended statements.

THIS is specifically what I don't understand. I don't get the aim or what you are seeking to do? The purpose? I hear you talk about the importance of authenticity but I see you speaking in a manner that is contrived and using the masked voice of a character. I hear you talk about the importance of self-analysis and growth but I hear you acting always as teacher.


You do have good thoughts that provoke more thinking or expansion of consciousness. But, alienating people through judgment will make that message hard to discern at times. At least in my experience on the site thus far.
 

Thalassa

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[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION]

I agree with you, but allow me to clarify my meaning better. I have been a member of a vegetarian forum and have browsed psychology, healing and narcissism forums, and what all those forums share, including vegetarians, are clear boundaries. Every single one of those forums clearly outline productive, constructive and what they consider ethical behavior. Sure this forum has rules, but the boundaries are absurd and seem to have been made up by a pair of abusive parents, a group of people suffering from personality disorders, or else an elite group of moderators who actually don't care much about the real health of the forum, and instead prefer to whine about how it's a volunteer position, so deal with how inconsistent and borderline abusive the moderation has been in the past, because. ..we're busy. It's pretty bizarre to belong to a forum where members who are blatantly egotistical flamers are accepted and ignored, like a violent drunk uncle on the holidays, and people who have openly admitted to having emotional or psychological issues are infraction or banned for being upset or reacting to them. "Responsibility for ones feelings" has always been demanded here, with very little regard to ethical consistency, healthy boundaries and of course, real moderation which may have involved. ..oh I don't know. ..constructive group conversations privately with long term members, instead of moderation more resembling of that of a bored single parent of a troubled teenager who tells them to go to their room or move out?

The moderation has improved here, I won't be stingy or unfair with my judgment, but SERIOUSLY. ..this is a psychological self help forum? Just be alone with that for a while.

I dunno. MBTI forums are weird places, Mole is right, they're kind of like a Wal Mart in a small town where all the bored weirdos go to talk about anything except Wal Mart. I belonged to another one where the moderation was much more consistent...consistently pro-Islam.

In addition, let me just add, that I think (and I could be wrong, but I think) that the reason Mole is disturbed by the existence of this forum is because it probably traumatized or enabled more people than it helped. ..which would be like "whatever" if it was 4Chan, or even YouTube. ..but that it advertises itself under the banner of psych, self help, communication, growth,etc...but does very little in the way of showing hurting or angry people what boundaries are, what owning your feelings is like in a healthy environment where people aren't allowed to just casually be abusive narcissists, where charts or pie graphs or group chats are held specifically teaching people better communication skills, personal reflection and conflict resolution. Because it doesn't.
 

Mole

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THIS is specifically what I don't understand. I don't get the aim or what you are seeking to do? The purpose?

I do things for their own sake, I don't try to get anything out of it.

Except I write from my inner self, effortlessly, with pleasure, every day.
 

Kanra Jest

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Why must we toss out the whole system? Might be a mistake if one is truly to learn of themselves.

People have had these "recognitions" in them, they have been "scarily accurate" often... there's something that hits.

Although I agree that mbti and such systems shouldn't be the end all be all of anything, much less an absolute. It can explain differences and similarities in people's brains, as we all are NOT wired the same, let alone with disorders. But we may share clear similarities, patterns, and these are noticed and tied into a system of explanation. This system and ones similar, while flawed, have very good uses. Not merely festering the "illusion" of separateness. Thus it still holds important meaning to understand oneself or things of the world around you. At times it can feel too black and white I agree, but there are important things to extract from it. I would find it all quite useful and not to be discarded for this "we are just we and things are just as they are" with no real explanation.

There are no real understanding to be had there.
 

Thalassa

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Why must we toss out the whole system? Might be a mistake if one is truly to learn of themselves.

People have had these "recognitions" in them, they have been "scarily accurate" often... there's something that hits.

Although I agree that mbti and such systems shouldn't be the end all be all of anything, much less an absolute. It can explain differences and similarities in people's brains, as we all are NOT wired the same, let alone with disorders. But we may share clear similarities, patterns, and these are noticed and tied into a system of explanation. This system and ones similar, while flawed, have very good uses. Not merely festering the "illusion" of separateness. Thus it still holds important meaning to understand oneself or things of the world around you. At times it can feel too black and white I agree, but there are important things to extract from it. I would find it all quite useful and not to be discarded for this "we are just we and things are just as they are" with no real explanation.

There are no real understanding to be had there.

I think the same thing that I touched on in my earlier post is why the psych community wants to toss it out...most of these web sites don't offer any kind of real psychological support or follow any of the normal ethics or protocol of other psych web sites - including sites that aren't even affiliated with doctors - those other sites mostly do a better job of not allowing people who are possibly pathological narcissists or sociopaths or generally abusive to run rampant on their forums in the name of "free speech." Sites like Personality Cafe have done a much better job of weeding out racists, misogynists and trolls than this one has, but instead of building its protocol or rules around the psych community, it appears to be designed around politics instead - because there are still weird characters there, like a member with a very high post count going by an Islamic name who isn't a Muslim, who constantly flames people and says he wants Islam to take over the world. Of course he's extremely popular there - and that's the problem, these sites are run on popularity (something people with NPD or even repeat trolls can enjoy) and I honestly wish things had been a little less diplomatic a few years ago. A few years ago, here, my boundaries weren't as good and I defended people who definitely should have been banned. There are people here now who are long term members who should have been banned long ago ...one guy, won't name names, has been sexually harassing and degrading women in threads and vent since at least 2009, but he's still an active member here. WHY? Most of what he posts are derisive right wing politics, not related to MBTI, when he's not trolling for misogyny. One of my infractions here included a time I had been staying away from the forum for months and months, when a male member from here, who I never had a relationship with, found me on Facebook through other members, and to make a long story short, became angry and verbally abusive when I wasn't interested in him romantically or sexually. I unfriended him, he wrote a really horrible post about me here, linked it on FB, so I came back here and reported it...only to find they didn't immediately temp-ban him for STALKING ME, and when I mentioned in one post what was going on (because the guy was still trying to bait me there) I was the one infracted. I was infracted for telling people I had been stalked by one of the women haters he man club here, because the moderation hadn't bothered to at least immediately temp-ban him for such a serious offense, when I hadn't even been to this forum in months. That's what I mean about "abusive" and "inconsistent" ...also just the content of the posts of some of the people here, as long as they don't EXPLICITLY break rules by calling people names, they can essentially be as abusive as they want to be, and they tend to hide under NT types (occasionally ST but not as much) even though their behavior obviously isn't type related. I take full accountability for my behavior when I have felt too strongly during a particular debate and started flaming people...but honestly, the entire environment here is conducive to chaos and bullshit.

Even as I'm typing this, I'm wondering why I'm even still here, and the answer is probably simply that I have been a member for so many years and like some of the other members here and have had SOME productive conversations.
 

Mole

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People have had these "recognitions" in them, they have been "scarily accurate" often... there's something that hits.

The scientific method has been developed because we find it very easy to delude ourselves.

And the academic discipline of Psychology uses the scientific method because the psyche is past master at self deception.

However the scientific method has not been applied to mbti in 75 years. This is because the delusions created by mbti meet deep needs within ourselves.

We are awash with these deep needs on Typology Central, but we have no means of addressing them, and indeed we actively avoid them. And we want to avoid them.
 

misfortuneteller

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i don't know what it is about MBTI but it seems to rub a lot of people on the interwebz the wrong way... i don't understand why they have to keep thrashing it. it's getting old.
 
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[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION]: In my experience, though, sites like TypoC or PerC are, by nature, much more like 4chan than a psych support. I've been on psych support sites - the general culture and demographic alone is totally different. Mainly though, I don't think people really come to typology sites for psych help; more like socializing or learning. It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

Unless I'm misreading you.


This from someone who kind of did have her psyche f-ed up hard by personality typology, despite also finding it fascinating and inspiring.
 

Mole

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[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION]: In my experience, though, sites like TypoC or PerC are, by nature, much more like 4chan than a psych support. I've been on psych support sites - the general culture and demographic alone is totally different. Mainly though, I don't think people really come to typology sites for psych help; more like socializing or learning. It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

Unless I'm misreading you.

This from someone who kind of did have her psyche f-ed up hard by personality typology, despite also finding it fascinating and inspiring.

It is regularly stated on Typology Central that we don't provide therapy.

However we do recognise that some members come here in emotional pain seeking relief.

And naturally they are disappointed, and Typology Central inadvertently increases their pain.

In fact Typology Central is a well run international site, well run voluntarily by the moderators, it is a social media site that practises free speech within a commonsense set of rules.

Typology Central is part of the flow of history, and as history ebbs and flows, so Typology Central ebbs and flows.
 

Mole

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You can not speak for others, nor should you.

Surely is is a sign of alienation to say we cannot speak for others, and worse, it is grossly authoritarian to say we should not speak for others.

Solidarity in the pain of others would suggest we do speak for others, and indeed it may be our duty. And as well, solidarity in the joy of others would also suggest we speak for others, and indeed it is our pleasure.

And the electronic media, including the internet, unites us all emotionally across the globe in the global village. And the hallmark any village, whether it be traditional or electronic, is that we all feel the same thing at the same time. For instance, when you feel something in the USA, we also feel it at the same time in Oz. So speaking for others is as natural a breathing. Just take a deep breath.
 

Thalassa

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[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION]: In my experience, though, sites like TypoC or PerC are, by nature, much more like 4chan than a psych support. I've been on psych support sites - the general culture and demographic alone is totally different. Mainly though, I don't think people really come to typology sites for psych help; more like socializing or learning. It's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

Unless I'm misreading you.


This from someone who kind of did have her psyche f-ed up hard by personality typology, despite also finding it fascinating and inspiring.

Yes but even places like PsychCentral don't offer therapy, per se. The disclaimers are usually meant for legal protection. This is a good place to go and vent about random shit you don't want to say to 3rd cousins or 9th grade acquaintances on FB, or which are too long for Twitter, but mostly it's a brain dump. ThatGirl called it that once, I thought she was being rude, or self centered, at the time...but that's all it is, at the end of the day. Goodluck having someone listen, respect, care, or even engage in debate the way they might in a classroom or other controlled environment. This place is an unloading dock for most people, whatever that means to them, unless you form specific friendships.

I've never been sure of the overall moderator goal, it appears to be simply to keep from people killing each other.
 

á´…eparted

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Surely is is a sign of alienation to say we cannot speak for others, and worse, it is grossly authoritarian to say we should not speak for others.

Solidarity in the pain of others would suggest we do speak for others, and indeed it may be our duty. And as well, solidarity in the joy of others would also suggest we speak for others, and indeed it is our pleasure.

And the electronic media, including the internet, unites us all emotionally across the globe in the global village. And the hallmark any village, whether it be traditional or electronic, is that we all feel the same thing at the same time. For instance, when you feel something in the USA, we also feel it at the same time in Oz. So speaking for others is as natural a breathing. Just take a deep breath.

Yeah you also don't get to say what goes on inside my head, and it's serve you well to not try that BS with me. Besides, you don't have a clue about me. Want to know? Go read my blog and post over there, then maybe I'd be prepared to discuss this matter. I'd be happy to discuss my psychological underpinnings there, since you seem so interested in doing that to people all the time. It would also prevent this thread to become off topic since you have a habit of doing that anyway.

And I stand by my word. You can not say that being a member here increases mental pain and suffering in others. Period. you don't know this. It's mean spirited, and you know exactly what you're doing, as does everyone. It's nothing more than you continuing your smear campaign against a website you obsessively hate.

Though I do have to give you credit, you really are the master of being insulting.
 

yoliyoli

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[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]: *claps* You are indeed a pseudo psychologist. Congratulations. I thought you could never do it. But the system you claim to hate, which is indeed a branch of pseudo psychology, being attacked by a pseudo psychologist is quite funny. Are you pseudo (Pseudo- | Define Pseudo- at Dictionary.com) or are you pseudo (Pseudo-) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia? Better check first. Haha. Also if we're really not in touch with ourselves that would be a sign of narcissism, but then again you're wrong because even narcissists are in touch with themselves. The selves they created.

Hmm, but then again you're also wrong (to get back on topic) with the whole we worship MBTI more than religion. That'd be a sin. At least, according to religion. But if you're atheist I suppose it doesn't matter. And as you've said, America is increasingly secular and capitalist, so what does it matter about religion? Oh, I forgot. It's because America's a Christian nation, isn't it? Well, oh well. We're already capitalist. And aren't Evangelicals a bit capitalist? Hmm.

Anyway.

Also, you can debunk this whole argument by saying that everyone relies on psychology, whether it's MBTI or not. Psychology isn't even proven so you shouldn't focus on MBTI. It hasn't done anything to you.
 

Mole

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[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]: *claps* You are indeed a pseudo psychologist. Congratulations. I thought you could never do it. But the system you claim to hate, which is indeed a branch of pseudo psychology, being attacked by a pseudo psychologist is quite funny. Are you pseudo (Pseudo- | Define Pseudo- at Dictionary.com) or are you pseudo (Pseudo-) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia? Better check first. Haha. Also if we're really not in touch with ourselves that would be a sign of narcissism, but then again you're wrong because even narcissists are in touch with themselves. The selves they created.

Hmm, but then again you're also wrong (to get back on topic) with the whole we worship MBTI more than religion. That'd be a sin. At least, according to religion. But if you're atheist I suppose it doesn't matter. And as you've said, America is increasingly secular and capitalist, so what does it matter about religion? Oh, I forgot. It's because America's a Christian nation, isn't it? Well, oh well. We're already capitalist. And aren't Evangelicals a bit capitalist? Hmm.

Anyway.

Also, you can debunk this whole argument by saying that everyone relies on psychology, whether it's MBTI or not. Psychology isn't even proven so you shouldn't focus on MBTI. It hasn't done anything to you.

Mbti does something to me everyday and I respond.

And I am pleased you feel confident enough to tell me where I am wrong, as it is sometimes hard to see myself.

And as for the USA being a Christian nation, rather the USA has a secular Constitution guaranteeing freedom of religion, including criticism of religion.

As for being not in touch with ourselves, this is important because we are moving from a literate visual culture to an electronic tactile culture, so we are caught halfway, we are still visual, and as yet to realise the benefits of tactility.

And there is also the question of depth, we can see our superficial aspects like personality but we are yet to get in touch with our deeper selves.
 

yeghor

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Mbti is about 80 years old and is part of the New Age religion. It is spread throughout the world. It is another American cult. And it is a money making cult. It preys on the vulnerability of young people discovering their identity, and it preys on those who are part of the decline of religion in the West, and who are looking for a substitute. For instance, mbti is popular with nuns who are losing their faith.

Mbti is part of a much larger world. I am very interested in the much larger world and the place of mbti in it.

And believe me, I did not attach myself to mbti, rather I was invited in writing to join Typology Central by the moderator, Geoff, because he thought I had something to offer. And I do.

I miss your cryptic sniping Mole.
 
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