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[MBTI General] The MBTI Destroyed!

Mal12345

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IxTP
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5w4
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sx/sp
There are some who have tried to ruin the MBTI by attacking its proponents. Such attempts are unoriginal, non-creative, and are the products of very little minds. The problem with the MBTI is that it relies on a series of implicit theoretical unquestioned assumptions. They are implicit because of the failure of the system's creators to draw them out; they are theoretical because the logic upon which the system is based is circular - axioms are designed to produce results which justify the axioms; and it is unquestioned simply because it is so popular. Those critics who deride the system know that there has to be something wrong, but they consider the MBTI to be drivel not worthy of their attention, therefore not worth disproving.

One of the MBTI's assumptions came under attack almost 20 years ago when the observation was made that the J/P scale can just as well be considered an independent variable in the system. Originally, all four scales were considered independent of each other, each one simply tested for strength and then thrown together to create your four-letter type. If you scored higher in I than E, then I was the first letter. If you scored higher in N than in S, then N was the second letter. Etc.

Then a "new" development came along which brought Jungian typology back into the system. It was assumed that if your strongest function was Ni, then your secondary function had to be extroverted. But more importantly, this function order determined, via formula, whether or not the fourth letter in the type was going to be a J or a P. In other words, to use John Fudjack's geometry-like nomenclature, J and P are dependent variables.

Whether or not this formulaic type determination works in reality was never questioned. So let's go back a little way and see how the assumption can be formulated a different way.

Let's say your dominant function is Ni. If we drop the assumption that J and P are determined by some formula that may be true only in theory, it will be necessary to actually test real Ni-dominant people to see if they are more P than J or vice versa. Using the MBTI's rigid formula, an Ni dominant has to have J as the last letter. In reality, however, an Ni-dominant may test as a Perceiver. In other words, J and P are independent variables.

(For more information on how independent variables are established, see Parallel postulate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Euclid's fifth postulate.)

If this theory works out in practice, then it leads to a less wieldy 32-type system which (omitting auxiliary types) looks like this:

Ni with P
Ni with J
Si with P
Si with J
Te with P
Te with J
Fe with P
Fe with J
Ne with P
Ne with J
Se with P
Se with J
Ti with P
Ti with J
Fi with P
Fi with J

But assuming the tests bear it out, why does it exist psychologically?

There is at least no theoretical contradiction in saying that, let's say, an Fi-dominant person can have Judging characteristics. Perceiving and Judging are merely externally observable behavioral traits. But it has nothing to do with having a messy desk or not. Judging and Perceiving types of people (and these are types in themselves) prefer either spontaneity or control, and either closure or openness. They are externally either flexible or rigid in their life orientation. They either prefer to play it by ear or they want everything planned out in advance.

Traditionally, one would say that an Fi-dominant person prefers openness (remember, this is an external behavior set), flexibility, and spontaneity. Although Fi-dominance lends them internal closure (a set of unquestionable values), this is not made apparent in his or her behavior. So there is a cognitive split between the internal and external in that person (normally called an INFP). With the value-system, it is "my way or the highway," everything exists in black-and-white terms. But externally (in reality) this person doesn't match the ideal at all. It is all words. The concepts fail to match the reality. Their values exist only in theory; they may apply them to others but there is a struggle to attain the ideal for themselves.

No, I'm not just picking on the Fi type again because I can and will do the same for any other function. Also, there is a way out of this cycle of attempting to but failing to meet the ideal value-self. The problem for Fi, and for any other function type, is the loss of self-confidence in the primary value system. Confidence is the psychological trait which keeps us striving for something more in reality, to bring our reality into conformity with our ideals. When this confidence in our values is broken, we repress the loss, driving it back to the shadow level of consciousness where it then bedevils us with various compulsions. We become either extremely, unhealthily flexible, or extremely, unhealthily rigid and non-conforming. We either begin to pander to other people in the hopes that they will mirror for us those ideals we lack in ourselves; or we turn against other people feeling that all valuing is pointless; or we withdraw completely from them, not wanting to play the people game at all.

These three false alternatives are simply the way in which the shadow or repressed self attempts to manifest itself in the lives of those who have lost confidence in themselves. They are ways in which we attempt to feel self-confident again. And all three amount to the desire either to control and dominate others, either through explicit domination (kings/queens, bosses, dictators), implicit domination (manipulative behavior), or to control and dominate the self.

For the Fi-dominant, loss of confidence leads to a Perceiving lifestyle; never losing, or regaining, confidence means that the Fi-dominant leads a more Judging (or judicious) lifestyle. So now the P and J distinction becomes one of character, the manifestation of ethical values. However, the more extremely you are dominated by either P or J (depending on type), the more neurotic you are likely to be, and the lower your character.

A neurotic ESTJ type, for example, will have an extremely rigid and inflexible way of life that is forced on others. This manifests itself in a lifestyle that panders to the socially valued and traditional by playing a socially-acceptable role, while the repressed self casts a black-and-white rigid and judgmental shadow on people in the society. Such a person feels morally bad inside, but this is repressed into the shadow and then projected via the belief that everybody else is bad. This person exudes extremes of self-confidence, but inside doesn't really feel worthy and hates his or her life. This shadow self is projected into the world, and everywhere this person goes he or she is surrounded by badness, having failed to face the shadow within themselves.

But it's not necessary to accept and merge with the shadow self. One can simply acknowledge its existence so that it no longer stays in the shadows, and gain in self-confidence because doing so takes much strength. The power that the ESTJ acquires in reality is a reverse image of the weakness that the ESTJ fears to feel in him- or herself, the inferior function (Fi with P).
 

existence

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ISTJ
[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION]

I don't think the "strength" of J/P preference has anything to do with neuroses. I know neurotic Fi-dom who's very strongly J in MBTI (and EII-Fi in Socionics). I also know neurotic Fi-dom who's quite P in MBTI (EII-Ne in Socionics). I know a less neurotic Fi-dom who's again quite J (though, slightly less than the first one I mentioned)... etc.

I feel good in both a very J mode and in another mode that's close to the middle on J/P (still slightly J though). I have these basic two modes of operation that I like. Don't like going too P.

Hope you like more input on this.
 

Peter Pan

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Hey how come when people don't like answers they make up their own new questions and then make up new answers

Like my friend had heard about MBTI and then told me and our other friends about it one night when we all were hangin out and then all of us took the test and we were all like hey that's just like me and everybody else would be like hey that's just like you too and then we have this oooooooooooone friend who is all like nuh uh that's not like me and we are all like yes huh that's just like you and he's like nuh uh and we like yes huh and then he gets mad and leaves and then like months later we are all hanging out and he starts talking about MBTI out of nowhere like he's all pissed and stuff and then starts talking about functions and stacking and this and that and then tells some of our friends that they were wrong and they were actually this different type and then they read the other type and are like that's not like me and then he's like yes huh and then we are all like nuh uh and then he shows us his new type he found and we are all like what the hell that ain't like you dude and he is like yes huh and we are like nuh uh and he's like yes huh and we like nuh uh and then he gets mad and leaves again and now like every once and a while he will go off on these long rants about MBTI stuff trying to say everyone else is wrong and he is right and that how what we are actually doing isn't what we are actually doing and we somehow someway doing something completely else and we are like oh my god dude will you just shut the hell up we do doooooont carrrrrrrrreeeeee and then he gets pissed off and leaves again
 

existence

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Hey how come when people don't like answers they make up their own new questions and then make up new answers

It's not about "not liking" the answer. It's about 1) the lack of internal logical consistency in the system 2) facts objectively not matching certain claims. Are you a Fi type by any chance? Since you assumed it's about "not liking" instead of logical analysis.
 

Peter Pan

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It's not about "not liking" the answer. It's about 1) the lack of internal logical consistency in the system 2) facts objectively not matching certain claims. Are you a Fi type by any chance? Since you assumed it's about "not liking" instead of logical analysis.

Wait isn't that basically just saying the same thing that I just said that you just don't like it cuz it seems like you just don't like it cuz you get asked a question by something and either like the answer and say hey that's good enough or you don't like the answer and then just keep going until you do like the answer and wouldn't it be not logical to try and say otherwise and ignore the fact that you just don't like something cuz then the whole thing just becomes an illogical mess of trying to explain why you just don't like instead of being like hey yeah no I just don't like it haha
 

existence

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Wait isn't that basically just saying the same thing that I just said that you just don't like it cuz it seems like you just don't like it cuz you get asked a question by something and either like the answer and say hey that's good enough or you don't like the answer and then just keep going until you do like the answer and wouldn't it be not logical to try and say otherwise and ignore the fact that you just don't like something cuz then the whole thing just becomes an illogical mess of trying to explain why you just don't like instead of being like hey yeah no I just don't like it haha

No, most definitely not the same.
 
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