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[SJ] Check your type before you wreck your type – are you an ISFJ?

Yama

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Hi, my name is lux. I’m your local liberal gay atheistic trans boy ISFJ, and I’m here to tell you that you don’t have to be Your Grandmother™ to be the same. Your questions—answered. I was born for this day, and you were all waiting for it.

First, let’s give a little background information. Please acquaint yourself with this these threads:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...enfp.html?highlight=ESFJ+e2+The+People's+ENFP

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...si-conservative-semantics-misconceptions.html

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...unctions/84438-learn-introverted-sensing.html

Why ISFJ?

ISFJ is one of the most common types. Yet look around you. Most of the people you see, given only a very basic (or stereotyped) understanding of MBTI, will not type themselves as such—especially if given access to one of those horrid online ISFJ type profiles.

As addressed in the People’s ENFP thread, and its spin-off thread regarding INFPs and ISFJs… it’s “not okay” for someone to try to tell another person, usually a self-typed xNFP, that they are actually an xSFJ, because of inherent bias against the type. In fact, typing someone as an xSFJ has been used as an insult by some.

The usual portrait of an ISFJ that one may find online depicts us to be traditional, mothering, religious, etc. Those things aren’t bad, but they are also not what makes an ISFJ.

The ISFJ Is one of the most common and yet least understood types. Forget everything you think you know about ISFJs. I’m here to clear it up for you.

If you are questioning your type, feel free to ask me questions about ISFJs or anything related in this thread. Please don’t ask me to read a questionnaire and give you the answer. Talk to me. Engage. You are the only one who knows you best, and therefore you are the person who is most qualified to type yourself. I am here to provide knowledge, information, and tools. But you make all of the decisions in the end.

A few things about myself. I have been interested in typology (as a casual hobby) for almost five years. While I think MBTI is one of the weaker systems compared to enneagram and socionics, it was my “gateway drug” and so I hold a bit of a soft spot for it.

The first test I ever took gave me an ISFJ result. It lead me to an online profile of ISFJs. Some of it fit, but it never quite felt… right. It made me sound close-minded. It made me sound way more warm and nurturing than I really am. It made me sound like an old lady.

I went through a period of angst last year. Angst about Fe. “It’s the Fe,” I said. “I know I’m Si/Ne, but I must be Fi.” I never did type as INFP, but the angst was real. Finally, I learned what Fe is.

Fe is not shallow, conforming, or hivemind. Fe is not about blindly adopting external values.

Fe is about having the compulsive desire to spread your values. Fe types want what they value to be the norm. They want other people to value the same things they do, and it bothers them when they don’t. On the other hand, Fi types, while very much so also able to engage in debate to defend their values, are not so much about sharing them with others as much as they are more interested in being a “living example” or embodiment of what they believe, and let others judge for themselves. It doesn’t bother the Fi type as much as the Fe type when others have different values—they may argue with them and try to “show them the facts,” but at the end of the day, it’s not changing their mind that matters. This is why Fi types oftentimes see strong or immature Fe as “imposing,” and why Fe types may view Fi types as “selfish.”

Why I do what I do—why I have done so much work on this forum trying to teach and explain Si, Fe, and SFJs in general—is an example of utilizing Fe. It bugs the living shit out of me to see the spreading of misinformation and stereotypes about a type and its functions that are already extremely misrepresented and misunderstood. I want everyone to understand it the way I understand it. I want everyone to be on the same page.

Please ask me questions if you are questioning your type or would just like to understand ISFJs better. Don’t ask me to type you, only you can do that. Ask me questions that you would like answered about ISFJs, their functions, their stereotypes, what’s true and what isn’t, etc. and I will be more than happy to answer.

…At first, I was going to make this more of a FAQ masterthread of questions to guide the reader through the process of determining their type, but I guess it’s turning out to be more of an “Ask an ISFJ” thread. Except better, because I’m fucking fantastic.
 

Pionart

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I think Sensors are seen as close-minded due to a general preference for relating things back to what they have already experienced, rather than curiously attempting to go beyond the data at hand and look at what else may be suggested by it.

In general though, Sensing dominant types are quite laid back - an ISFJ is typically not a "judgmental" sort of person. This is implied through their dominant function, which is a perception function.

--

Fe, to me, means a preference for the externalisation of one's values - these are made explicit, rather than for an Fi user, whose values are implicit. So, an Fe user will tell you what they value, and an Fi user will show you what they value through how they behave.

--

This distinction, of explicit versus implicit, also differentiates the Se user from the Si user. The Se user responds to the sensed object in a way consistent with the properties of that object which everyone may observe, whereas the way that the Si user responds to the sensed object can only be understood through the way that the object is being represented in the mind of the Si user - it would be an error to treat the Si user as seeing the sensed object as is and to hence infer something of their Fi or Ti from said behaviour.
 
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I'd say that's a pretty good explanation, certainly makes the idea of being an ISFJ a little less painful.

I typed as an ISFJ for a while before someone suggested I have a lot of Fi, at a time when I understood Fi to mean "strong personal feelings" or "being internally value driven". Since then I do tend to wonder about it, realizing my feelings about things aren't often that strong - or personal - and I have no internal fortitude regarding values.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/85417-wonder-im-isfj.html

I can't say I'm much of a crusader, or a value-spreader....but it oes bother me when people don't agree, and I'd certainly like to spread things I value more, which again seems to strengthen the Fe argument. So, yeah, I can't really tell.
 

Norrsken

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I hope you don't mind, lux, but I'll add a link to another thread where I asked about the Si function:
Si = Good Memory?

In your own words, can you tell me the differences between Ni and Si?
 

Yama

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I'd say that's a pretty good explanation, certainly makes the idea of being an ISFJ a little less painful.

I typed as an ISFJ for a while before someone suggested I have a lot of Fi, at a time when I understood Fi to mean "strong personal feelings" or "being internally value driven". Since then I do tend to wonder about it, realizing my feelings about things aren't often that strong - or personal - and I have no internal fortitude regarding values.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/85417-wonder-im-isfj.html

I can't say I'm much of a crusader, or a value-spreader....but it oes bother me when people don't agree, and I'd certainly like to spread things I value more, which again seems to strengthen the Fe argument. So, yeah, I can't really tell.

With the more analytical ISFJs, who are heavier in Si and Ti, I think they can appear very Fi-like. Being an ISFJ is no more painful than any other type, except for the excessive amount of stereotypes pushed upon them. I think this is because there are not many SFJs (or SJs in general) on forums like these to begin with; and the ones who are are often mistyped. Such as The People's NFP. It's easy to project onto or blame a target who isn't present to defend themselves. Thus, no one really even questions the stereotypes.

I came up with a theory. Ji is more "valued" and Je is more "respected." Ji is internal. It's abstract, pure, deep, and hard to communicate because of this. Je is externally driven; it "runs the world" so to speak. It has a much easier time communicating, but loses some of that "purity" in exchange. And I think that people, both Ji and Je types, can be jealous of what the other has--people with curly hair want straight hair. People with straight hair want curly hair. It is much the same with some Ji types being bitter that their Ji is not as "respected" as Je, or for some Je types to be resentful that their Je isn't as "valued" as Ji. When this resentment and bitterness happens, it can lead to mistypes, such as People's NFP, and also ISTP>INTJ, another somewhat common mistype. Both Ji and Je may fail to recognize their own strengths and instead become upset that they are lacking in the others'.

Another way that you can try and determine if you have aux Fe is to look at the Ti hidden agenda. This is delving into socionics, but whatever. A few days ago, I asked a question but was unhappy with the answer. I wanted more clarity. My Ti kicked in and began completely deconstructing the thought, ripping it apart, and throwing out anything that it found "useless." Once I reached the answer, I was still unhappy and frustrated, and discarded it. Why?

Because I went through a Ji process expecting a Je answer. I broke everything down with my Ti but I wanted to answer to be Je in structure. And it wasn't. Because I used Ji to get there. And it is precisely because I threw out the answer after reaching the conclusion through Ji that you can tell Ji isn't one of my valued functions. A Ji dom or aux would have no problem accepting a Ji conclusion after running it through the Ji process. But I wanted my answer to be more Je. I wanted it to be clear, conclusive, and make sense to me in a way that Ji doesn't do it for me. It wasn't. I would give you more specifics about my particular example, but it was a few days ago and I have a bad memory. I only remember what I remember because I took notes so I wouldn't forget, as I often forget my "revelations."

I hope you don't mind, lux, but I'll add a link to another thread where I asked about the Si function:
Si = Good Memory?

In your own words, can you tell me the differences between Ni and Si?

I don't mind at all. I was going to link that thread and a couple other as well, but they were also already linked in my Si masterthread so I wondered if it would be redundant or not, so I held off for now--but it's a good thread. :D

To be honest, Ni is a bit if a mystery to me--because it's Pi, so it's very similar, but it's Pi that's not Si. At the same time, I see Ni and Si as more similar to each other than Si is to Se or Ni is the Ne because of their Pi-ness. Out of all of the functions, Ni is probably the one that I understand the least, despite that they are so similar. And I think that's precisely why I have trouble grasping it. This also makes sense, considering Ni is supposedly dead last in my functional stacking.

Ni is definitely more than "future planning" and "just knowing things." It's much more complex than that, in the same way that Si is much more then "memory recall" and "traditionalism." I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm still learning about Ni!!) that while Si collects data from its own personal experience and utilizes that, Ni collects data from something more abstract, such as the "collective unconscious." Would you agree with this, or is it something else entirely?
 

Reborn Relic

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Whom do you view to be the ultimate authority on what Fe is? I can't accept that the purported Fe user is, because it's not necessarily a matter of self-awareness to be aware of what a set of definitions outside yourself are.
 

Yama

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Whom do you view to be the ultimate authority on what Fe is?

Me. I am your god now.

Heh, but I don't really know if there's any one "expert." Just whoever knows what they're talking about. And by that, I mean not blatantly stereotyping.
 

Norrsken

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To be honest, Ni is a bit if a mystery to me--because it's Pi, so it's very similar, but it's Pi that's not Si. At the same time, I see Ni and Si as more similar to each other than Si is to Se or Ni is the Ne because of their Pi-ness. Out of all of the functions, Ni is probably the one that I understand the least, despite that they are so similar. And I think that's precisely why I have trouble grasping it. This also makes sense, considering Ni is supposedly dead last in my functional stacking.

Ni is definitely more than "future planning" and "just knowing things." It's much more complex than that, in the same way that Si is much more then "memory recall" and "traditionalism." I think (and correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm still learning about Ni!!) that while Si collects data from its own personal experience and utilizes that, Ni collects data from something more abstract, such as the "collective unconscious." Would you agree with this, or is it something else entirely?

You definitely described how I feel about Si, in that since it is my last function, I just cannot seem to wrap my head around what it truly means to have it. Its akin to asking me to speak Chinese when I'm not proficient in it at all. I think Ni collects data from abstract signs and instrintic patterns, symbols, that kind of thing. [Source] Yes, I believe it is very future oriented, the kind of person that has their life planned out since they were a child, at least, inside their minds.

Si is the same but in reverse. It focuses on the details of the past and compares it to the present. Or am I wrong? :unsure:
 

Dreamer

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Just wanna butt into the convo [MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION] and [MENTION=26674]theforsaken[/MENTION]... Wow, [MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] is right, I DO butt in... I suck.

But I wanted to throw in some thoughts into the N/S divide. And like Yama, I personally find it easier to understand Ti through Fi or Se through Ne for example. I spoke with Zombie about Ti and Kierva about Se so that's where I found the parallels and it was ugh, awesome.

Anyways, with Se and Ne they actually do the exact same thing, surprise! But Se looks at the surface level of data, and Ne looks beneath the surface for data. They are both very exploratory in nature and are both "look! Squirrel!" functions where the Pe dominant is led by novelty and enjoys the exploration for the exploration itself.

So I'd definitely say that understanding Ni and Si through analyzing both functions and first seeing what they share, what they essentially do in parallel, then see where they differ. My hunch is, it's going to turn out to be just like my discovery between Ne and Se where they are basically the same thing, but looking at things through a different lens.

The way I relate to Si is that I store a collection of memories or understandings of things, and even the same thing will have these varied instances. Almost like a pile of "understandings" that are of the same thing but those references do not change and are stagnant. But put them together and you have a collected understanding of that thing. I would presume that Ni does this too but like Ne, on that level "beneath".

Thoughts?
 

Norrsken

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[MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] It's amazing how difficult it is to sometimes describe Si and Ni, since they are both introverted functions and are about what's going on inside a person's head, which may be hard to describe to others what it is like in a way. ;p

But I think you got it right.
 
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With the more analytical ISFJs, who are heavier in Si and Ti, I think they can appear very Fi-like. Being an ISFJ is no more painful than any other type, except for the excessive amount of stereotypes pushed upon them. I think this is because there are not many SFJs (or SJs in general) on forums like these to begin with; and the ones who are are often mistyped. Such as The People's NFP. It's easy to project onto or blame a target who isn't present to defend themselves. Thus, no one really even questions the stereotypes.

I came up with a theory. Ji is more "valued" and Je is more "respected." Ji is internal. It's abstract, pure, deep, and hard to communicate because of this. Je is externally driven; it "runs the world" so to speak. It has a much easier time communicating, but loses some of that "purity" in exchange. And I think that people, both Ji and Je types, can be jealous of what the other has--people with curly hair want straight hair. People with straight hair want curly hair. It is much the same with some Ji types being bitter that their Ji is not as "respected" as Je, or for some Je types to be resentful that their Je isn't as "valued" as Ji. When this resentment and bitterness happens, it can lead to mistypes, such as People's NFP, and also ISTP>INTJ, another somewhat common mistype. Both Ji and Je may fail to recognize their own strengths and instead become upset that they are lacking in the others'.

Well, with those descriptions, who wouldn't want to have strong Ji? I wouldn't say it isn't respected, quite the opposite.

Another way that you can try and determine if you have aux Fe is to look at the Ti hidden agenda. This is delving into socionics, but whatever. A few days ago, I asked a question but was unhappy with the answer. I wanted more clarity. My Ti kicked in and began completely deconstructing the thought, ripping it apart, and throwing out anything that it found "useless." Once I reached the answer, I was still unhappy and frustrated, and discarded it. Why?

Because I went through a Ji process expecting a Je answer. I broke everything down with my Ti but I wanted to answer to be Je in structure. And it wasn't. Because I used Ji to get there. And it is precisely because I threw out the answer after reaching the conclusion through Ji that you can tell Ji isn't one of my valued functions. A Ji dom or aux would have no problem accepting a Ji conclusion after running it through the Ji process. But I wanted my answer to be more Je. I wanted it to be clear, conclusive, and make sense to me in a way that Ji doesn't do it for me. It wasn't. I would give you more specifics about my particular example, but it was a few days ago and I have a bad memory. I only remember what I remember because I took notes so I wouldn't forget, as I often forget my "revelations."

I recall reading somewhere that hidden-agenda Ti is basically the pinnacle of pseudointellectualism: being obsessed with appearing analytical, intelligent and knowledgeable when you really aren't. Emphasizing erudition and intellectual grandstanding to make up for an actual incompetence in intellectual matters and lack of objectivity. Trying to organize their feelings logically and thinking that makes them actually logical.

I think I've experienced something similar to you, ripping apart questions to find satisfactory answers...then not being quite satisfied. Inconclusive answers frustrate me, as do vague ones. Give me a straight answer: is this right or wrong, good or bad, useful or useless, acceptable or unacceptable, etc? Sure, I'll hash out possibilities, but I eventually want to settle on one.



Another major reson I've considered ISFJ for myself I forgot to mention is that my Se is crap. Like, crap. Maybe it's just bad descriptions, but I can barely relate to anythign about Se in MBTI or Socionics. Whereas the actually good descriptions of Si resonate with me, and Socionics version is perfect.
 

Yama

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Well, with those descriptions, who wouldn't want to have strong Ji? I wouldn't say it isn't respected, quite the opposite.

It depends on your point of view; of course, this is not to say that Je does not have any value, or that Ji is not worthy of respect. Only that there seems to be a certain mindset in the majority of the typology community where more value is given to Ji than Je, and more respect to Je than Ji. This says nothing about their actual worth, only what seems to be the predominantly majority opinion. IMO Ji may be more valued by the typology community but that doesn't mean that Je lacks value, and Je may be shown more respect but that doesn't exclude Ji from being respectable (or deserving of it). It does, however, explain phenomena such as "The People's ENFP," where a Je type who may feel resentful that their preference isn't treated with the value that they want will actually mistype in order to receive it from the community. This in itself actually solidifies their Je-ness, imo.

Another major reson I've considered ISFJ for myself I forgot to mention is that my Se is crap. Like, crap. Maybe it's just bad descriptions, but I can barely relate to anythign about Se in MBTI or Socionics. Whereas the actually good descriptions of Si resonate with me, and Socionics version is perfect.

Socionics' Si is something I've had a bit of a problem with in the past, though recent developments have explained why and helped me come to terms with it. Its take on Si fits me--up until it gets really physical. "Aware of bodily sensations" and all of that. Whereas I will forget to eat for a day without even realizing it. However, I believe this can be explained by the fact that I'm sp-last in enneagram, and that sort of thing also falls into the sp domain.
 

Yama

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You definitely described how I feel about Si, in that since it is my last function, I just cannot seem to wrap my head around what it truly means to have it. Its akin to asking me to speak Chinese when I'm not proficient in it at all. I think Ni collects data from abstract signs and instrintic patterns, symbols, that kind of thing. [Source] Yes, I believe it is very future oriented, the kind of person that has their life planned out since they were a child, at least, inside their minds.

Yes, the bolded is what I was assuming, but wasn't sure.

Si is the same but in reverse. It focuses on the details of the past and compares it to the present. Or am I wrong? :unsure:

Si draws from archetypes that it has created through individual experience rather than from abstraction. So in a way, yes, but more complex than it is usually given credit for. :p
 

violet_crown

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I don't have anything to add, but I'm definitely appreciative of how ferocious Luxy has gotten about his Fe.

You better werk, queen!!!
 

julesiscools

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Just wanna butt into the convo [MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION] and [MENTION=26674]theforsaken[/MENTION]... Wow, [MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] is right, I DO butt in... I suck.

But I wanted to throw in some thoughts into the N/S divide. And like Yama, I personally find it easier to understand Ti through Fi or Se through Ne for example. I spoke with Zombie about Ti and Kierva about Se so that's where I found the parallels and it was ugh, awesome.

Anyways, with Se and Ne they actually do the exact same thing, surprise! But Se looks at the surface level of data, and Ne looks beneath the surface for data. They are both very exploratory in nature and are both "look! Squirrel!" functions where the Pe dominant is led by novelty and enjoys the exploration for the exploration itself.

So I'd definitely say that understanding Ni and Si through analyzing both functions and first seeing what they share, what they essentially do in parallel, then see where they differ. My hunch is, it's going to turn out to be just like my discovery between Ne and Se where they are basically the same thing, but looking at things through a different lens.

The way I relate to Si is that I store a collection of memories or understandings of things, and even the same thing will have these varied instances. Almost like a pile of "understandings" that are of the same thing but those references do not change and are stagnant. But put them together and you have a collected understanding of that thing. I would presume that Ni does this too but like Ne, on that level "beneath".

Thoughts?

Wow, this helped me so much with sorting the Se/Ne thing. I've always related to Ne because it's always described as an abundance of ideas and liking novelty, and Se isn't generally given a description that involves ideas at all.

Thank you, [MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION], for pointing me towards this thread! :hug:
 

Dreamer

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Wow, this helped me so much with sorting the Se/Ne thing. I've always related to Ne because it's always described as an abundance of ideas and liking novelty, and Se isn't generally given a description that involves ideas at all.

Thank you, [MENTION=23583]Yamato Nadeshiko[/MENTION], for pointing me towards this thread! :hug:

Glad it helped you out! I was never really able to understand the functions and types until I removed the language often seen online, and made sense of it in a way that I could personally understand. Everyone has their own way of learning and understanding things. Just figure out how you put two and two together and any theory becomes easy peasy.

Se totally plays with things as Ne does, it just does so in a more literal sense. But ideas are not solely an Ne thing :newwink:
 

julesiscools

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Glad it helped you out! I was never really able to understand the functions and types until I removed the language often seen online, and made sense of it in a way that I could personally understand. Everyone has their own way of learning and understanding things. Just figure out how you put two and two together and any theory becomes easy peasy.

Se totally plays with things as Ne does, it just does so in a more literal sense. But ideas are not solely an Ne thing :newwink:

Yeah, I think that was my biggest issue. Thinking that Se couldn't play with ideas like Ne, but putting in a context where Se simply skims the surface made it click for me. Because that's me, I jump from idea to idea so much that it's like skipping a rock on top of a lake.
 
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