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[Fi] Fi, Why Are You So Dependent On Others?

Mal12345

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Whoah. That doesn't sound like ethical therapy to me. I feel really sorry for that client.
I've known people extremely repressed to the point of feeling no anger, but also expressing an extremely, extremely passive form of aggression. Violating someone to trigger their anger is not ethical. I know a strongly religious woman who was brutally raped, but she insists on forgiving the attacker and she suffers from a lot of passive aggression and control. The point is that even if the therapist actively harmed such a passive person, it is unlikely to trigger rage when it is suppressed. You have to get at the root of why that person fears anger so much. They need to feel safety not violation. It is safety that will enable the rage to come through. It is suppressed typically out of fear, so adding fear will further suppress it.

I'm sorry you've dealt with difficulties as well. I'm also upset about the treatment of your friend with the suppressed anger.

Edit: The therapist should lose their license. If that isn't something you can pursue, I hope your friend can at least find a different therapist. That is a serious offense that was committed with the pillow.

It was a long time ago. I think she said that the therapist was at her wits end dealing with a case of repression so profound. I don't know how passive-aggressive she was though. But I do know that she expressed emotions somatically. If something happened that would bring out emotion she would immediately get a headache. The purpose of the headache was to block the unwanted emotion. I saw her do that quite a few times so it was pretty obvious what was happening. I didn't think anything of it the first time I saw her grab her head in sudden pain. But over the months I spotted a pattern where she would react to something upsetting by immediately getting a headache.
 

Mal12345

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In an effort to try to take your post seriously, why do you think this type of depression and neurosis is specific to Fi (and if so, why?), vs instead more of an insanely unhealthy level of enneagram(s), or codependency/chronic self esteem issues, or? Do you think Fi alone causes this to occur, ie xxFJ's never plagiarize from others? Or in reality everyone plagiarizes, thus everyone is a charlatan, it's just according to theory Fi thinks they don't and thus they get sucked into the neurotic abyss you are trying to describe?

And now for a harder post to answer, because it asks "why" questions. And you should know that "why" questions involve the deepest thinking.

In an effort to try to take your post seriously, why do you think this type of depression and neurosis is specific to Fi (and if so, why?)
It comes from doing a great deal of reading, especially book reading and not internet junk, and then applying into experience what I learned as objectively as possible. I've come to the conclusion that with the Fi type, especially the neurotic ones (the ones who are internally split between someone's ideal of who they should be versus who they really are), there is a deep-seated anger that is implied in their manipulativeness. But on the internet, I've noticed that manipulation is more difficult a tactic for them, and so their anger tends to arise more frequently. People on the internet, other netizens, become like whipping posts for them to relieve the internal stresses caused by their contradictory natures.

In an effort to try to take your post seriously, why do you think this type of depression and neurosis is specific to Fi (and if so, why?), vs instead more of an insanely unhealthy level of enneagram(s), or codependency/chronic self esteem issues
Why can't MBTI types be insanely unhealthy?
Codependency is the introjection of the traits possessed by a SO who has an addiction. This is a type of merger seen with Fi-dominants, and many of these are e-type 9s who, at a certain level of health, desire merger with another. But I won't say that all codependents have introverted feeling without doing some kind of study.
Chronic low self-esteem isn't type related. I think there are types who are more expressive of their low self-esteem, and if there was a single type who is good at expressing low self-esteem, it would be Fi because of dependency combined with manipulation.

Do you think Fi alone causes this to occur, ie xxFJ's never plagiarize from others?
I wouldn't say never.

Or in reality everyone plagiarizes, thus everyone is a charlatan, it's just according to theory Fi thinks they don't and thus they get sucked into the neurotic abyss you are trying to describe?
It's difficult to say what an Fi thinks because the feelings are so complex and the thinking is over-thought. Just translate Ti to Fi in that respect, where Ti thinking is complex and it over-complicates ideas about feelings because of a failure to understand their form of logic. Introverted feeling has its own logic, but the more deceitful it becomes the more the internal soap opera rages on and the internal pressures are externalized, sometimes somatically, sometimes by silly things like stealing something just for the thrill of it.
I would say that the neurotic Fi is a type of charlatan, but that there are many other types.
 

1487610420

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And now for a harder post to answer, because it asks "why" questions. And you should know that "why" questions involve the deepest thinking.


It comes from doing a great deal of reading, especially book reading and not internet junk, and then applying into experience what I learned as objectively as possible. I've come to the conclusion that with the Fi type, especially the neurotic ones (the ones who are internally split between someone's ideal of who they should be versus who they really are), there is a deep-seated anger that is implied in their manipulativeness. But on the internet, I've noticed that manipulation is more difficult a tactic for them, and so their anger tends to arise more frequently. People on the internet, other netizens, become like whipping posts for them to relieve the internal stresses caused by their contradictory natures.


Why can't MBTI types be insanely unhealthy?
Codependency is the introjection of the traits possessed by a SO who has an addiction. This is a type of merger seen with Fi-dominants, and many of these are e-type 9s who, at a certain level of health, desire merger with another. But I won't say that all codependents have introverted feeling without doing some kind of study.
Chronic low self-esteem isn't type related. I think there are types who are more expressive of their low self-esteem, and if there was a single type who is good at expressing low self-esteem, it would be Fi because of dependency combined with manipulation.


I wouldn't say never.


It's difficult to say what an Fi thinks because the feelings are so complex and the thinking is over-thought. Just translate Ti to Fi in that respect, where Ti thinking is complex and it over-complicates ideas about feelings because of a failure to understand their form of logic. Introverted feeling has its own logic, but the more deceitful it becomes the more the internal soap opera rages on and the internal pressures are externalized, sometimes somatically, sometimes by silly things like stealing something just for the thrill of it.
I would say that the neurotic Fi is a type of charlatan, but that there are many other types.

why?
 

Z Buck McFate

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It's been a long day so I'll start with this, the easiest post to answer. This information came from the person herself, not from the grapevine. She explained to us that her anger is so repressed that nothing can bring it out. She said that it occurred after a traumatic event and resulted from her son attempting to murder her. She ended up in a mental institution for some time. She was married and also told us that she is frigid. So I guess that goes along with it: the lack of anger, the lack of energy, the lack of passion for life in general.

My point though (and it's not an important one, probably not worth derailing your thread) was that, supposing it did happen, I don't actually see it as proof of how repressed she was. If the reason a person represses anger is learned helplessness, for example- you won't teach them to see emotions they're afraid of by pushing them like that. You'll actually just affirm their perception that they're helpless and make their repression/issues worse. (Martin Seligman wrote a book about studies he's conducted on learned helplessness- that's the kind of thing coming to mind for me here.)

And I mean, even if I heard it directly from the person herself- I can't help it, I'd wonder if she was remembering it accurately (how well I know her, how much credibility I give her- all those kinds of things would be taken into account). Saying it happened a long time ago makes it a little more credible though. (And again- whether I find it believable isn't actually the point.)
 

OrangeAppled

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OoooooOoooo....buuuuuuuurn. Yah, well you INTPs not even as smart as u think u r! What's the last science discovery you even made?
Zeeeeroooooo!

:harhar:




:coffee:
 

PeaceBaby

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It's difficult to say what an Fi thinks because the feelings are so complex and the thinking is over-thought. Just translate Ti to Fi in that respect, where Ti thinking is complex and it over-complicates ideas about feelings because of a failure to understand their form of logic. Introverted feeling has its own logic, but the more deceitful it becomes the more the internal soap opera rages on and the internal pressures are externalized, sometimes somatically, sometimes by silly things like stealing something just for the thrill of it.
I would say that the neurotic Fi is a type of charlatan, but that there are many other types.

Here's the thing - you're conflating thinking patterns and feeling patterns. You're trying to use Ti to make sense of emotional patterning in a thinking pattern way. The enneagram is a better system, here. Blending the two together is complex and consequently many of your extrapolations for the "why" are off.

What is the purpose of this thread?
 

Southern Kross

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These seem like hate threads, but they are in actuality tough love threads.

And they don't necessarily describe all people of a type, only the neurotic ones. Now I predict someone here will slap me down for using a psychiatric term. But this isn't rocket science or brain surgery. It's more like brain surgery I guess, but much simpler because words like "neurotic" have definitions that are easy to understand. If you're neurotic then you're going to be internally conflicted, angry, anxious, and depressed, even (and especially) if you aren't aware of having these traits.

For example, a woman I used to know described herself as having no anger at all. But she was also extremely passive. This was the result of deeply repressed anger. I'm not speculating, that's how it was. Her therapist tried to instill some anger in her by pressing down on her face with a large pillow during a therapy session. But it didn't work, and the therapist had to let off so she wouldn't suffocate. Her anger is so repressed that she would rather die from suffocation than feel anything negative. This all was the result (she said) of her son attempting to murder her. Before that event, she said, she was much more alive inside.
1. That's some dodgy therapy. :huh:

2. This person sounds very depressed and any type living with that will act strangely. I'm not sure whether type analysis of that would be of value.

3. I'm not even sure if I understand what you're getting at.

But all that aside...

Speaking for myself, the only control I have over my life is repression. Other people can direct themselves to action, impact on their environment or foster good relationships through mirroring etc - I can't. For me it's a matter of censoring, filtering, editing, and releasing certain aspects of myself in ways that are vaguely beneficial or at least avoid undesirable situations.

Basically, repression (or the lack thereof) is the only tool in my toolbox. I just use it and blindly hope it leads to a desired outcome. I don't know how to else to go about things. :shrug:
 

Mal12345

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1. That's some dodgy therapy. :huh:

2. This person sounds very depressed and any type living with that will act strangely. I'm not sure whether type analysis of that would be of value.

3. I'm not even sure if I understand what you're getting at.

But all that aside...

Speaking for myself, the only control I have over my life is repression. Other people can direct themselves to action, impact on their environment or foster good relationships through mirroring etc - I can't. For me it's a matter of censoring, filtering, editing, and releasing certain aspects of myself in ways that are vaguely beneficial or at least avoid undesirable situations.

Basically, repression (or the lack thereof) is the only tool in my toolbox. I just use it and blindly hope it leads to a desired outcome. I don't know how to else to go about things. :shrug:

Thank you for that.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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It was a long time ago. I think she said that the therapist was at her wits end dealing with a case of repression so profound. I don't know how passive-aggressive she was though. But I do know that she expressed emotions somatically. If something happened that would bring out emotion she would immediately get a headache. The purpose of the headache was to block the unwanted emotion. I saw her do that quite a few times so it was pretty obvious what was happening. I didn't think anything of it the first time I saw her grab her head in sudden pain. But over the months I spotted a pattern where she would react to something upsetting by immediately getting a headache.
It makes complete sense that a person would repress their anger towards a child who attempted to murder them, regardless of their personality type. That is a rage no mother is supposed to feel. People who feel rage towards family members and spouses need to see the scenario played out in lives and characters outside themselves, so they can feel rage for that injustice, and then gradually over time come to admit they feel that rage themselves. Or perhaps they need a safe environment to break stuff, shoot guns at targets, take Karate, sit on a mountain and scream, etc. to express rage without any fear of harming anyone. My friend who was brutally raped has a serious case of repression and she is an ISTJ. She needs an environment of complete safety someday to express it. One thing my own counselor has emphasized to me is that it is fundamental to the counseling profession to trust the client's timeframe for dealing with their issues. You NEVER force healing on someone. The therapist who at their wits end attempted to re-enact the experience of attempted murder on a client was completely lacking insight. That "therapy" further damaged the client. Wits end or not, sometimes people have been scarred beyond repair. No therapy can force someone to heal. All you can and should do is offer help, empathy, acceptance, and then hope some progress is made.

Repressing emotion is a serious issue and even drives some of the most violent crimes. It happens across humanity - all personality types, all races, all genders, etc. Our modern society is especially adept at fostering repression because of the way everything is compartmentalized. There is a tendency to only give objective, calm expressions of ideas credibility. Emotion by nature is culturally seen as lacking credibility. For this reason, if you want to be credible you better suppress your strongest emotions. Based on Jung's personality theories, there is a generalized tendency for people with a Thinking preference to deal with the subjective realm entirely in the subconscious. Plenty of Feelers also repress psychological issues when it comes into conflict with self-image. To what extent is it a generalized tendency for an INFP? According to Jung their subconscious function is Te, so theoretically I don't see the connection. I would say the generalized tendency would be to form ideas without the fully functional evidence of Te, rather than suppressing emotion for a Fi-dom. This is not to say it can't happen. When it does happen it would likely be because the negative emotion is in conflict with self identity.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] What do you think about Ti-dom psychological repression? Do you find a correlation there or only with Fi-doms? Jung's theory places Fe in the subconscious for the Ti-dom.
 

Mal12345

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There is a heavy element of manipulation in Mal's post. Reading that is likely to have a person believe that they are those things, that they do those things, whether it is true of them or not.

Furthermore, it seems to include no advice or help regarding what to do if those things were true of you, it is simply a clusterfuck of negative words.

That's true. But what advice should I give someone I don't even know? Solutions should be specific to the individual. I just know in general (assuming someone is unhappy being the way they are), about anti-depressants, anti-anxiety medication, and working through the problems. In general, putting people in situations that make them uncomfortable (this is called exposure therapy) is beneficial. My problem with severe introversion (being enneagram triple withdrawn) has largely been solved through the work I've been forced into through economic necessity. I spent over 3 years talking to people on the phone troubleshooting their computer issues remotely and gained in confidence dealing with people. I believe in personal growth, so I didn't allow the ones who yelled at me over the phone stop me from making progress. And the vast majority of customers are nice people. I try to recognize that humans are more strongly affected by the negative events than the positive ones. So I stop whatever negative thoughts I'm having about the occasional rude customers and tell myself that most customers are positive: they understand that I'm trying to help them, and they know that whatever their problem is it wasn't caused by me personally. Also, I have a family to take care of now. That helps build a sense of personal responsibility.

There is also the problem of thinking about the future in wrong ways that make it more depressing than it really is. There is an old saying from AA: "take it one day at a time." Or less, if you have to. When I had a long depressing work day to look forward to, I would focus on taking it one task at a time, kind of in the "be - here - now" tradition.

I just don't think anybody pays attention to advice from strangers, but that's what worked for me.
 

Pionart

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Well, I think if you could suggest that those traits belong to someone who you don't know, then it would perhaps be best to see it as describing an archetype, and as such, the solution would be made in regards to the archetypal dilemma.

Like,

Negative traits associated with the use of the Introverted Feeling function are these;

As such, we pay turn these negative traits into neutral or positive traits like this;
 

Pionart

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I wonder about the fixation on the negative myself; perhaps it is that, by fixating on a negative image, we project its inverse, positivity, into the situation, so that it is in balance overall, and that by a quasi-meditation on the negativity, allow ourselves to prevent such an experience in the future?

I too try to see the positive at all times in people; when I do say negative thing, usually I will have a positive goal in mind, like playing Devil's Advocate. Oftentimes it completely backfires, and I neglect to factor in how seriously others may be taking the interaction.

When I do see negativity in another person, I attempt to reframe it; how it is the by-product of something else positive, how it is actually minor, how the negativity itself could be seen in a positive light. I try to accept my pain, and shortcomings, however it can be difficult dealing with the pressure that pain brings.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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That's true. But what advice should I give someone I don't even know? Solutions should be specific to the individual. I just know in general (assuming someone is unhappy being the way they are), about anti-depressants, anti-anxiety medication, and working through the problems. In general, putting people in situations that make them uncomfortable (this is called exposure therapy) is beneficial. My problem with severe introversion (being enneagram triple withdrawn) has largely been solved through the work I've been forced into through economic necessity. I spent over 3 years talking to people on the phone troubleshooting their computer issues remotely and gained in confidence dealing with people. I believe in personal growth, so I didn't allow the ones who yelled at me over the phone stop me from making progress. And the vast majority of customers are nice people. I try to recognize that humans are more strongly affected by the negative events than the positive ones. So I stop whatever negative thoughts I'm having about the occasional rude customers and tell myself that most customers are positive: they understand that I'm trying to help them, and they know that whatever their problem is it wasn't caused by me personally. Also, I have a family to take care of now. That helps build a sense of personal responsibility.

There is also the problem of thinking about the future in wrong ways that make it more depressing than it really is. There is an old saying from AA: "take it one day at a time." Or less, if you have to. When I had a long depressing work day to look forward to, I would focus on taking it one task at a time, kind of in the "be - here - now" tradition.

I just don't think anybody pays attention to advice from strangers, but that's what worked for me.
Likewise, what criticisms should you give someone you don't know. Advice and criticisms both imply detailed knowledge to form an assumption about a person. If a context makes criticism valid, it also makes advice valid. You can't have one without the other because they belong to the same system: Problem - solution
 

ceecee

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I just don't think anybody pays attention to advice from strangers, but that's what worked for me.

Do you generally go around giving mental health advice to strangers? I looked through your posts and I couldn't see what led up to the woman in your story giving you this information about her therapy and life experiences. Did you just start talking to her? I also don't know what the point is of these threads. Forcing personal responsibility on people who can't even grasp what that is? Just to get the Fi (of Fe or Se) users worked up? Or are you giving unsolicited advice to people because....?
 

Poki

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the biggest issue i see with Fi dependence is when they are with a slightly controlling person. its not enough to push them over, but it pushes them to repression. they then become highly dependent mentally while they arent really dependent at all.
 

Mal12345

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[MENTION=13589]Mal12345[/MENTION] What do you think about Ti-dom psychological repression? Do you find a correlation there or only with Fi-doms? Jung's theory places Fe in the subconscious for the Ti-dom.

I believe repression can exist for any type. Isn't that what the inferior function is all about? Fe in the inferior leads to the repression of social values, mainly of a feeling of being a socially responsible individual, or better, as a citizen defined as an individual considered in the context of a community with rules, values, and traditions for each individual to follow. As Ti-dominant, I question their logic and their necessity in a skeptical fashion, and I question their value for me. But then the question is, what motivates this skepticism? That would depend on the individual, but for me the real, hard-nosed skepticism began in early adolescence via some disappointing circumstances.

The enneagram is more useful in rooting out the source of the motivations as it is primarily concerned with motivation in general. As a triple withdrawn type, my tritype is 549. So, considering the average to unhealthy levels of development, we know that 5 is the socially withdrawn type anyway, so its abilities in the social realm are in the primitive or immature range. The 4, as a dependent type, has a feeling of needing to be taken care of by having needs met by others, and of being exempt from and even above the laws of nature (the archetypical Starving Artist). The 9, as another dependent type, is profoundly neglectful of the human need to be assertive, represses anger, and becomes passive-aggressive as a result.
 

Mal12345

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Do you generally go around giving mental health advice to strangers? I looked through your posts and I couldn't see what led up to the woman in your story giving you this information about her therapy and life experiences. Did you just start talking to her? I also don't know what the point is of these threads. Forcing personal responsibility on people who can't even grasp what that is? Just to get the Fi (of Fe or Se) users worked up? Or are you giving unsolicited advice to people because....?

The advice I gave was "solicited" by the criticism that the OP was not giving advice. So it seems that I am damned if I do and damned if I don't.
 

Mal12345

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Likewise, what criticisms should you give someone you don't know. Advice and criticisms both imply detailed knowledge to form an assumption about a person. If a context makes criticism valid, it also makes advice valid. You can't have one without the other because they belong to the same system: Problem - solution

If the OP doesn't apply to you, then don't take it personally just because you are strong with Fi.
 

Pionart

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Do you generally go around giving mental health advice to strangers? I looked through your posts and I couldn't see what led up to the woman in your story giving you this information about her therapy and life experiences. Did you just start talking to her? I also don't know what the point is of these threads. Forcing personal responsibility on people who can't even grasp what that is? Just to get the Fi (of Fe or Se) users worked up? Or are you giving unsolicited advice to people because....?

Oh, like go see a psychologist because I think homosexuality is something that is hidden in present day society?

sorrynotsorry :blush:

You ask a lot of questions.

It is portraying a picture of an introverted feeling type, in a more shadowy light.

I suggested including possible solutions.
 
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