• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Functions: Xi vs. Xe

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
It seems like it doesn't make sense to think of the eight functions as entirely separate. Fe and Fi have overlap, Ti/Te, Ni/Ne, Si/Se.

So I propose that there are only four functions (not that this is completely new or anything). Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition. There is a spectrum of Introversion to Extroversion for each function. It should not be thought of as binary.

In most cases, people significantly prefer one direction for each function, but there's no reason this should be true in all cases. It does make sense to me that Introversion in one P function leads to Extroversion in the other (same for J functions). But it's never going to be 100% Ni/0% Ne and 100% Se/0% Si. Thinking of Ne and Ni as separate ideas just seems misleading to me (true for all functions).
 

Delphyne

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
144
MBTI Type
INFP
Fe and Fi are both concerned with the area of value judgements, but they can be rivals in determining what´s good and appropriate. Growing up with an ESFJ mother I can tell you that we often had different opinions regarding that area. Fe is concerned with the object, it has rules about social behavior, communication and tries to determine what´s good and appropriate for all people. Fi is concerned with the subject, it tries to feel the need of individuals and it´s judgements are more dependent on individual situations. Furthermore, Fe shows emotions to communicate. Fi does the same, but it´s much more discriminating. IFPs often perceive EFJs as too emotional and gushy whereas EFJs perceive IFPs as too cold and unfriendly.

There are huge differences between Fe and Fi, Ti/Te and so on.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,192
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
In most cases, people significantly prefer one direction for each function, but there's no reason this should be true in all cases. It does make sense to me that Introversion in one P function leads to Extroversion in the other (same for J functions). But it's never going to be 100% Ni/0% Ne and 100% Se/0% Si. Thinking of Ne and Ni as separate ideas just seems misleading to me (true for all functions).

Aside from the issue that Xi/Xe determine direction and focus of function use (so they actually can be distinguished from each other even if not 100% exclusive, as Delphyne says), what about the practical issues involved in implementing a spectrum-based view?

Many issues have been reduced to opposing binaries simply because it's MUCH easier to discuss and apply things in terms of compare/contrast, then deal with inevitable deviations from the poles. Without the poles, there's little ways to distinguish anything out of the morass in conversation or application.
 

Ilah

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
274
MBTI Type
INTJ
I'm not really sure.

I see that both my Ni and Ne were very high so I can say that my N is good. Te is "excellent use" and Ti is "average" so overall I guess I am pretty decent at T.

But how would I descibe my F and S under your system, with such a huge discrepancy in scores? For example my Fi is listed as "excellent use" and my Fe is "unused." So am I good at F or bad at it or do you take the midpoint and say I am average at F? My Si is good, but my Se is a pathetically low 3.2. So do you say over all I am really bad at S?

Score difference summary:
Ni-Ne = 43.8-42.1 = 1.7
Te-Ti = 41-29.9 = 11.1
Si-Se = 32.7-3.2 = 29.5
Fi-Fe = 40.8-7.5 = 33.3
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
time for another installment of talking out my butt: I think Fi and Fe are different enough. My room mate (INFJ) and I can be presented with the same information and if we're both using our feeling function will often come to a different conclusion. She generally looks at past experiences and what society says to do, I'm sure she does do some comparison aswell. I look at past experience and compare and contrast them to the present situation, how close I am to the person, how many times has this person screwed me over in the past? then I go through different scenerios in my head and try to predict the outcome of each one. So yeah same amount information two different reactions, and I don't think their's a right way. It's just she sticks to rules she's made up, and thinks to be the ultimate truth. and I don't have any rules set in stone, mostly because I don't believe in an ultimate truth.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
I'm not trying to say that Fe and Fi don't manifest differently. I'm just saying that thinking of someone as a Fi user OR (exclusive or) a Fe user isn't really painting the full picture. I disagree with "Fi users" all the time, but that's irrelevant to my point (Plus, I disagree with Fe users, too, although slightly less often). My point is, when Fe and Fi make the exact same conclusion, why distinguish between the two so strongly? Why say "the Fe user made that decision because of tangible evidence and the Fi user made that decision because the tangible evidence was taken in through Ne or Se and filtered through the internal standard." It seems so convoluted. Sometimes, Feeling is just Feeling.

Jennifer: point taken, although I wasn't really talking about application of MBTI, I was talking about the bounds of the theory. My interpretation seems to account for more shades of grey.
 

Delphyne

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
144
MBTI Type
INFP
Why distinguish between T and F? Why say “the T user made that decision because of impersonal basis and the F user made that decision because of personal basis?” It seems so convoluted. Sometimes, Judging is just Judging. :D
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
The difference is, there is no overlap between thinking and feeling.

I agree, sometimes it's useful to talk about judging and not distinguish further.
 

Delphyne

New member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
144
MBTI Type
INFP
The difference is, there is no overlap between thinking and feeling.

They´re both concerned with judging.

I agree, sometimes it's useful to talk about judging and not distinguish further.
Sometimes it´s useful to talk about feeling and not distinguish further. Not always, though. ;)
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
You didn't understand. Fe and Fi can come to THE SAME CONCLUSION. Fe and Te by definition cannot.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
Surely, you can't be serious.

Um... yes I am quite serious.

Do you know the functions? Thinking can only output true/false, Feeling can only output good/bad.

No offense, but if you have another definition, you are wrong.

Listen, I'm not saying ETJs and EFJs can't come to the same conclusion. Just that the functions themselves have no overlap.
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
Um... yes I am quite serious.

Do you know the functions? Thinking can only output true/false, Feeling can only output good/bad.

No offense, but if you have another definition, you are wrong.

Listen, I'm not saying ETJs and EFJs can't come to the same conclusion. Just that the functions themselves have no overlap.
You just said they can't come to the same conclusion.

Fe and Fi can come to THE SAME CONCLUSION. Fe and Te by definition cannot.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
OMG dude read my words please.

There is a difference between functions and type. I'm talking about functions, you're talking about type.
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
OMG dude read my words please.

There is a difference between functions and type. I'm talking about functions, you're talking about type.
And I still don't agree. The path to reach that conclusion differs, but they can still reach the same conclusion.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
It seems like it doesn't make sense to think of the eight functions as entirely separate. Fe and Fi have overlap, Ti/Te, Ni/Ne, Si/Se.

So I propose that there are only four functions (not that this is completely new or anything). Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuition. There is a spectrum of Introversion to Extroversion for each function. It should not be thought of as binary.

In most cases, people significantly prefer one direction for each function, but there's no reason this should be true in all cases. It does make sense to me that Introversion in one P function leads to Extroversion in the other (same for J functions). But it's never going to be 100% Ni/0% Ne and 100% Se/0% Si. Thinking of Ne and Ni as separate ideas just seems misleading to me (true for all functions).

This is similar to how I think of it. There are really four functions and two manifestations to each function. Fi, Ti, Ni, and Si all have a fair amount in common in that all have traits that you would associate with introversion (and it's similarly true for Fe, Te, Ne, and Se with extraversion).

All of this is how I think of things on a purely theoretical/cognitive level. When you are looking at how a person behaves the J/P dimension can have a significant effect on behavior.
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
And I still don't agree. The path to reach that conclusion differs, but they can still reach the same conclusion.

Lol. You're still talking about type, dude.

The point of the functions is that they're distinct. Type is the interaction between functions.

If you think that Fi and Ti can reach the same conclusion, you don't understand the functions. Straight up.

Yes, a Ti user and an Fi user can reach the same conclusion, but that's because they both use all four functions, not because Ti and Fi do the same thing.

Anyways, I think the people that listened got my point. That's as much as I can do.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
time for another installment of talking out my butt: I think Fi and Fe are different enough. My room mate (INFJ) and I can be presented with the same information and if we're both using our feeling function will often come to a different conclusion. She generally looks at past experiences and what society says to do, I'm sure she does do some comparison aswell. I look at past experience and compare and contrast them to the present situation, how close I am to the person, how many times has this person screwed me over in the past? then I go through different scenerios in my head and try to predict the outcome of each one. So yeah same amount information two different reactions, and I don't think their's a right way. It's just she sticks to rules she's made up, and thinks to be the ultimate truth. and I don't have any rules set in stone, mostly because I don't believe in an ultimate truth.

Not to pick on just you, but your example is very funny to me, because I relate quite a lot to how you describe yourself, prplchknz. I relate little to how you describe your roommate. I've also tended to test with pretty high Fi, and often-times pretty low Fe.

But according to nearly everyone who knows me, I'm a bona fide INFJ. I'm pretty much the only one who questions that. :laugh: So...all of this is to say that I tend to lean towards what dissonance is talking about (that is, if I'm actually interpreting the initial post correctly)...the spectrum of cog. function usage. One INFJ may place more importance (or to use mbti lingo, may have higher preferences for) on Fe than another, so the end result is they may process/decide on things somewhat differently. And one INFJ may have very stunted Fi use whereas another may prefer it a lot more. Then it becomes more hazy, but since dominant is the same, they're just different flavors of INFJ, I suppose. In some ways I'm quite different from the INFJ's I know -- probably why I relate a bit more to your description. ;-)
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
^Yeah. And not only do INFJs differ by how close to extroverted in the feeling spectrum they fall (ditto for other functions), they also differ by how much they use feeling compared to the other three functions.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,988
Visualizing/Conceptualizing

I am kind-of thinking about cognition as a shape (I'm thinking elipsoid right now) in a three dimensional space, where the cognitive functions become projections on to some vectors (I am thinking 45-degrees into their respective quatrants in the "judgement plane" or "perception plane"). The percpetions and judgement planes as joined along the E-I axis.

attachment.php
attachment.php


Here is a potential elipsoid (and there are man potential ones for a given type) for an ESTP:

attachment.php


Need to cogitate on this some more. I wonder is I can mathematically prove that a 3D-elipsoid can account for all possible scores on the congitive functions test. Seems plausible... need more cogitating. :coffee:
 
Top