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  1. #31
    Member Laxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I personally don't believe people change. They can learn new habits and behavior to hide sides of themselves but those are just superficial. Person beneath stays the same.
    What is "the person beneath" exactly? I can't remember what I was like in middle school and elementary school, but I don't see how that dictates how I am today.

    Sure, developing a sense of responsibility and having more respect for others can change your behaviors, but I don't see how it cannot be attributed to a change in personality if it is a lasting change. A person is capable of growth and development, and I don't see how changing your behaviors and actions does not constitute a change in personality. Clearly it means that a person has redefined their priorities for some reason, whether it be an internal change or the result of an external influence. The change still takes form, and others can see it.

    However, your actions are the only part of your personality that people can see. If I don't talk and I space out all the time, then people are inclined to think I'm an idiot because I haven't contributed anything. It's different if I answer a difficult question or give people the impression that I am more competent than them, but what I have done is simply changed their perception of me because I have shown them what I am capable of.

    What if I decide that I want to work harder, and force myself to do it until it becomes integrated within my consciousness to the point where I do it without thinking? Is it fair to say that I have changed myself, or am I still the same person because I was once very different in my habits?

    What if I suffer intense psychological trauma that significantly alters my way of thinking? Is it not fair to say that I have changed then?
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliaBlack View Post
    I think the majority of people who enforce this belief are NTs who like to believe that anyone they dislike is an INFP ESFJ and cannot possibly be anything else.
    fixed

    but ftr i don't think type changes. we grow older and gain life experience and mature and balance out, but it doesn't actually change.
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  3. #33
    Mind Wanderer Zeego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laxton View Post
    What is "the person beneath" exactly? I can't remember what I was like in middle school and elementary school, but I don't see how that dictates how I am today.

    Sure, developing a sense of responsibility and having more respect for others can change your behaviors, but I don't see how it cannot be attributed to a change in personality if it is a lasting change. A person is capable of growth and development, and I don't see how changing your behaviors and actions does not constitute a change in personality. Clearly it means that a person has redefined their priorities for some reason, whether it be an internal change or the result of an external influence. The change still takes form, and others can see it.

    However, your actions are the only part of your personality that people can see. If I don't talk and I space out all the time, then people are inclined to think I'm an idiot because I haven't contributed anything. It's different if I answer a difficult question or give people the impression that I am more competent than them, but what I have done is simply changed their perception of me because I have shown them what I am capable of.

    What if I decide that I want to work harder, and force myself to do it until it becomes integrated within my consciousness to the point where I do it without thinking? Is it fair to say that I have changed myself, or am I still the same person because I was once very different in my habits?

    What if I suffer intense psychological trauma that significantly alters my way of thinking? Is it not fair to say that I have changed then?
    These are the kinds of factors that I find people don't take into account when they say personality never changes. As Shakespeare wrote in Othello, "It is in ourselves that we are thus or thus."
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  4. #34
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laxton View Post
    What is "the person beneath" exactly?
    I see it as the person that is left when people are stripped of their possessions, dignity, feelings of self-importance and self-confidence - basically, your motivation. How you are then is what you are at core. If we are happy, we have money and security, it is very easy to do the "good human being act" or whatever you like to call it. But of course, this is just an extreme example but that is what I mean by "beneath".

    Sure, developing a sense of responsibility and having more respect for others can change your behaviors, but I don't see how it cannot be attributed to a change in personality if it is a lasting change. A person is capable of growth and development, and I don't see how changing your behaviors and actions does not constitute a change in personality. Clearly it means that a person has redefined their priorities for some reason, whether it be an internal change or the result of an external influence. The change still takes form, and others can see it.
    I am fully aware that we are on the verge of semantics here but here goes anyway. I see that as a change of behavior, not a change in personality. Let's say I'm lazy to the core but because I live with a woman who expects me to do certain things at home in relation to chores or kids, I'll go with it cause I want her to love and appreciate me. If I don't do that, I put the love and my security to risk. So everything I need to do these things, I feel like I really wouldn't want to (as opposed to "yeah, sure!"), I do it because that's acceptable behavior. Or you find money on the sidewalk. You would like to keep it but maybe upbringing has put into your head the idea that it's wrong and it's a good deed to return it to the owner?

    If the case is such that previously you would've kept the money or would have been lazy jackass but no you are definitely not that, you don't even think about keeping the bucks or staying on the couch, then I can admit your personality has changed. Naturally, if you've gotten rich meanwhile, it doesn't tell that much about your changed personality but instead of changed circumstances which is not a proof of personality change.

    What if I decide that I want to work harder, and force myself to do it until it becomes integrated within my consciousness to the point where I do it without thinking? Is it fair to say that I have changed myself, or am I still the same person because I was once very different in my habits?
    It depends what are your motivations. If you are working harder to get recognized or get wealthy, then it's the motivation that is driving you - not your change of personality. If you still find yourself working immensely hard when there's nothing to be gained from it, then you've changed your personality. Motives always trump the core personality - it's more about what happens when those motives run out. That's when you are seeing the core personality.

    What if I suffer intense psychological trauma that significantly alters my way of thinking? Is it not fair to say that I have changed then?
    Artificial and far-fetched to this discussion. What if I lose my leg - isn't it fair to say I have become one-legged? Traumas and sicknesses are a completely different matter if we are talking about people being able to change personality.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
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  5. #35
    Member Laxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I see it as the person that is left when people are stripped of their possessions, dignity, feelings of self-importance and self-confidence - basically, your motivation. How you are then is what you are at core. If we are happy, we have money and security, it is very easy to do the "good human being act" or whatever you like to call it. But of course, this is just an extreme example but that is what I mean by "beneath".



    I am fully aware that we are on the verge of semantics here but here goes anyway. I see that as a change of behavior, not a change in personality. Let's say I'm lazy to the core but because I live with a woman who expects me to do certain things at home in relation to chores or kids, I'll go with it cause I want her to love and appreciate me. If I don't do that, I put the love and my security to risk. So everything I need to do these things, I feel like I really wouldn't want to (as opposed to "yeah, sure!"), I do it because that's acceptable behavior. Or you find money on the sidewalk. You would like to keep it but maybe upbringing has put into your head the idea that it's wrong and it's a good deed to return it to the owner?

    If the case is such that previously you would've kept the money or would have been lazy jackass but no you are definitely not that, you don't even think about keeping the bucks or staying on the couch, then I can admit your personality has changed. Naturally, if you've gotten rich meanwhile, it doesn't tell that much about your changed personality but instead of changed circumstances which is not a proof of personality change.



    It depends what are your motivations. If you are working harder to get recognized or get wealthy, then it's the motivation that is driving you - not your change of personality. If you still find yourself working immensely hard when there's nothing to be gained from it, then you've changed your personality. Motives always trump the core personality - it's more about what happens when those motives run out. That's when you are seeing the core personality.



    Artificial and far-fetched to this discussion. What if I lose my leg - isn't it fair to say I have become one-legged? Traumas and sicknesses are a completely different matter if we are talking about people being able to change personality.
    I can't really argue with anything that you just said. I can agree that motivation can drive a change in behaviors, and I see where it is that you draw the line in determining what is behind a change in behavior.

    However, I don't see what makes a trauma and mental illness an artificial circumstance, as over a quarter of the United States' adult population suffers from a diagnosable mental illness. Why do you believe a psychological disorder to be analogous to a situation like losing a leg? One occurs internally, while the situation that you described is visible to others.
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  6. #36
    Just curious geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Default Why do most people believe you can't change your type?

    I think if you have a strong will and desire to change anything in yourself you'll be able to do it..
    When I was a child, I used to be introverted and rarely interact with people, but I wanted to be an extrovert (still a little bit shy) and now I'm an extrovert..
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  7. #37
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Why does it matter? People change their types all the time as they learn more about themselves. Who cares? There are people here that go from INFP to ISFP to ENTJ in a matter of months.

    Just kidding on that last one.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  8. #38
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    "Type" is nothing more than the classification of behavioral and psychological habits. Habits can be changed, but may or may not change.
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  9. #39
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laxton View Post
    However, I don't see what makes a trauma and mental illness an artificial circumstance.
    Sorry, I meant artificial (argument) in this discussion as it is not because of will or motives. It's a forced change - and even then we can argument that mental illness does affect, say, chemical balance of the brain. Maybe temporarily, maybe permanently. But does it change the core person which might returns if we were able to cure the illness? Take bipolars for example as that is such a trendy diagnosis. It is more or less for life but does the person change from what he was before he got sick - or does bipolar bring more on top of the old personality, maybe enchancing some of his already existed and unwelcome characteristics? Honestly, I don't know. Remove the bipolarity, do you get the same (core) person back as he was? Is the core personality moldable or is it for life regardless of what happens? This is where our difference of opinion lies and that's great.

    If anything, I think it makes you better people than me as I can be quite a cynic believing people don't change.
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  10. #40
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    There are two main theories of type according to type stability.

    One is that you have eternal type, true type, and it is only sometimes shows wrongly in some tests or in other ways.

    The other is that there's a current type, which is pretty stable, but it can change. Also that tests can't ascertain any "eternal" or forever type or anything like that whatsoever.

    I for one believe in the latter. It's tempting but ultimately ridiculous to believe in an eternal type. I am one of those ridiculous persons wishing to find out my true type, but with logic, I can understand I am being silly.
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