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  1. #1
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Question Can We Ever - Truly KNOW - Another?

    Several descriptors in the “What’s Your Love Type MBTI” thread contain: “being overly private”, “closeness does not come quickly”, “suspicious and distrusting” or “tend to hold back a part of yourself until sure”. (This topic tickles me as an INFP and a human.)

    How well do we ever know anyone truly? Mark Twain said the only true auto-biography was contained inside ‘the thoughts that a person thinks to themselves within their lifetime”.

    We CAN observe, ask, share, intuit, perceive, judge, listen…

    But, IF life is a process of individuals figuring out who they are and how best to represent/navigate that: how can one person expect to have a complete grasp or understanding of another? One whose mind we do not inhabit. Whose behaviour may differ from one social interaction to the next?

    It is not dishonest to hold back some things until one's pragmatic side gives a go-ahead. (Of course there are exceptions: things people clearly deserve to know regardless of one's own feelings. Then being transparently candid IS required).

    My own aim is to offer freely what I can, in an authentic and mindful way = meant as an indication of admiration and trust.

    Can you relate or are you open from the get-go? Are you frustrated when people hold back parts of themselves…preferring it all to be ‘out on the table’?

    Would you be content knowing you have MORE of someone than anyone else? That more will be forthcoming though some things may remain unknowable?

    Does honouring connection still allow for respectful freedom & independence? Or do you desire more in YOUR connections (friendship or otherwise)?
    Last edited by Cloudpatrol; 04-27-2016 at 01:24 AM. Reason: you say toe-may-toe, i say toe-ma-toe (inhibit/inhabit)
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  2. #2
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    How well do we ever know anyone truly?

    Not well. Until some "big event" happens...

    My own aim is to offer freely what I can, in an authentic and mindful way = meant as an indication of admiration and trust.


    Can you relate or are you open from the get-go? Are you frustrated when people hold back parts of themselves…preferring it all to be ‘out on the table’?
    I only feel good when I feel I can be myself. I used to feel frustrated when they did "hold back. I was thinking "something was wrong".
    I am still very interested at reading people's mind and mainly body language. Some strangers can feel it and they don't like it
    So that I know what they feel even if they wanna hide it or are lying about something. The important thing is that a positive energy and friendly atmosphere takes place for me.
    "All to be out on the table" depends on the situation. Being honest is important, but the important thing to me is "why to show" / "why to hide"at a very precise moment.
    Is that a question of survival ? Is that a question of seduction ? IS that a social situation ? 3 different subtypes 3 different ways to show/hide. Many many reasons to behave in such or such way...
    Sometimes people can think your attitude is weird, but if, for you, it is the fair attitude that makes you feel true to yourself, just go for it _unless you hurt other people.

    Would you be content knowing you have MORE of someone than anyone else? That more will be forthcoming though some things may remain unknowable?
    No. My freedom, my choices, my thoughts, my sensitivity and strength, my independence and my comfort are only mine. I don't need to compare myself, my needs, my personality, the way I choose to live my own life, the way I spend my money or if I enjoy reading the newspaper on the toilet seats only belongs to me.
    Every human being has a different education, culture, perception, will, different problems too. My karma is my karma, my nature is my nature.
    I value qualities and heart over goods and materialism. I'm content with myself and I love to feel people are content with themselves. I hate envy. That has absolutely no sense to me.
    I am a minimalist and I enjoy what I already "have" or what I am, but I'm still in touch with what I desire. Afterwards, Have or not to have...that is the question...

    Does honouring connection still allow for respectful freedom & independence? Or do you desire more in YOUR connections (friendship or otherwise)?

    My personal space is VERY important to me. I hate feeling controlled as well as I hate controlling others. I am aware loneliness and independence are two different things.
    I never feel lonely. I know I can call a friend and ask to meet, they can do the same and will be welcome. We just know we will share some good time and be generous to each other.
    I'm not craving for connections or new people. I know too well many are superficial (mainly where I live on the sea coast).
    My sexual subtype is strong so I prefer a one-to-one interaction, and I can concentrate in the present moment. So I'm very focused, Se + Sx
    When I feel attracted to someone I just go for it. There is a tremendous energy ! I reflect on "the why and details" later on... When something happens it is a good sign. I know it too well.
    I will always find a good reason anyway... I trust my instinct.

    I am faithful with my friends and each one has an important place in my life. If I feel they don't value the relationship enough, are not sincere or not generous with their time for me, I'll just go away.
    I used to wait for deep connection and was always disappointed and angry with others.

    I've learnt how to nourish myself like a plant, with sun and fertilizer.
    The sun is me, my hope, my focus, my strengths, the fertilizer are ...other human beings I love to be with.
    Quality versus quantity for sure.
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM
    Unfortunately we are all fucking contagious Smile and see what happens around you......
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  3. #3
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    You can truly know someone else. I think you can know someone else to almost the extent you know yourself. Or rather, in a different way. The thing is that you get to observe someone from the outside, which is something the person in question can never truly do. This way you can see parts of someone who doesn't see them himself. When you hang out with someone long enough, given that the communication is deep, you get to know someone on a level that might have eluded themselves. This is both frightening and soothing. The best mirror for ourselves is another person.

    And what comes to the hypothesis you have about the world: Not everyone is out to figure themselves out. Well, not to the extent of NF at least. Seems it is in our nature, and in human nature, but our NF nature emphasizes it strongly.

    Can you relate or are you open from the get-go? Are you frustrated when people hold back parts of themselves…preferring it all to be ‘out on the table’?
    Well there are two sides to this. I love people who are open. I also love people who are somewhat mysterious but give bits and pieces about themselves as we go along. But most of all, I love people who are true to themselves and to others. Any faking is a no go.

    As for myself, I try to be as open as I can from the start but I wouldn't reveal everything at once. I couldn't even if I wanted to. Just being yourself is the best thing you can do. Then you attract people who are attracted to you.

    Would you be content knowing you have MORE of someone than anyone else? That more will be forthcoming though some things may remain unknowable?
    I understand you want to know a particular person in that you know him/her thoroughly. Or just thinking in general? There are always things you can't know. When you get to know someone, you find a vast ocean of a person. I think one lifetime is kinda short to know oneself truly, yet another person. There is beauty in not knowing, I've found it best to appreciate this. A relationship could just be that never ending quest to know someone. I'd prefer finding someone with whom the quest would take me a lifetime.

    Does honouring connection still allow for respectful freedom & independence? Or do you desire more in YOUR connections (friendship or otherwise)?
    After a long relationship I've found out that being too involved is one thing. Being a unity is another thing. And being two separate entities who share a life in union is the third thing. When in a relationship you might first find each other being the same entity. This is not healthy in the long run, but I think its necessary for a strong bond to evolve. This can go into unhealthy clinging, its all about balance. As a relationship evolves, you need to find yourself as your own person and find a balance where both can act on their own lives, yet still sharing a bond.

    PS. INFp translates to INFJ in MBTI. Are you sure of your type?
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  4. #4
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExNinjaTropPervertie View Post
    How well do we ever know anyone truly?

    Not well. Until some "big event" happens...

    My own aim is to offer freely what I can, in an authentic and mindful way = meant as an indication of admiration and trust.


    Can you relate or are you open from the get-go? Are you frustrated when people hold back parts of themselves…preferring it all to be ‘out on the table’?
    I only feel good when I feel I can be myself. I used to feel frustrated when they did "hold back. I was thinking "something was wrong".
    I am still very interested at reading people's mind and mainly body language. Some strangers can feel it and they don't like it
    So that I know what they feel even if they wanna hide it or are lying about something. The important thing is that a positive energy and friendly atmosphere takes place for me.
    "All to be out on the table" depends on the situation. Being honest is important, but the important thing to me is "why to show" / "why to hide"at a very precise moment.
    Is that a question of survival ? Is that a question of seduction ? IS that a social situation ? 3 different subtypes 3 different ways to show/hide. Many many reasons to behave in such or such way...
    Sometimes people can think your attitude is weird, but if, for you, it is the fair attitude that makes you feel true to yourself, just go for it _unless you hurt other people.

    Would you be content knowing you have MORE of someone than anyone else? That more will be forthcoming though some things may remain unknowable?
    No. My freedom, my choices, my thoughts, my sensitivity and strength, my independence and my comfort are only mine. I don't need to compare myself, my needs, my personality, the way I choose to live my own life, the way I spend my money or if I enjoy reading the newspaper on the toilet seats only belongs to me.
    Every human being has a different education, culture, perception, will, different problems too. My karma is my karma, my nature is my nature.
    I value qualities and heart over goods and materialism. I'm content with myself and I love to feel people are content with themselves. I hate envy. That has absolutely no sense to me.
    I am a minimalist and I enjoy what I already "have" or what I am, but I'm still in touch with what I desire. Afterwards, Have or not to have...that is the question...

    Does honouring connection still allow for respectful freedom & independence? Or do you desire more in YOUR connections (friendship or otherwise)?

    My personal space is VERY important to me. I hate feeling controlled as well as I hate controlling others. I am aware loneliness and independence are two different things.
    I never feel lonely. I know I can call a friend and ask to meet, they can do the same and will be welcome. We just know we will share some good time and be generous to each other.
    I'm not craving for connections or new people. I know too well many are superficial (mainly where I live on the sea coast).
    My sexual subtype is strong so I prefer a one-to-one interaction, and I can concentrate in the present moment. So I'm very focused, Se + Sx
    When I feel attracted to someone I just go for it. There is a tremendous energy ! I reflect on "the why and details" later on... When something happens it is a good sign. I know it too well.
    I will always find a good reason anyway... I trust my instinct.

    I am faithful with my friends and each one has an important place in my life. If I feel they don't value the relationship enough, are not sincere or not generous with their time for me, I'll just go away.
    I used to wait for deep connection and was always disappointed and angry with others.

    I've learnt how to nourish myself like a plant, with sun and fertilizer.
    The sun is me, my hope, my focus, my strengths, the fertilizer are ...other human beings I love to be with.
    Quality versus quantity for sure.
    Do you like port? I haven't had any for a long time but I know that occasionally I really love it. I always read your posts and get a yearning to sit down with you and drink port or strong coffee and nibble on a cheese plate and just shoot the s*&%.

    Your frisky, thoughtful approach to life makes me smile. Thanks for your input in this thread.

    I appreciated your comment that a positive attitude helps when someone is holding back and also this: Is that a question of survival ? Is that a question of seduction ? IS that a social situation ? 3 different subtypes 3 different ways to show/hide. Many many reasons to behave in such or such way...

    I will think more on that

    This plucked my heartstrings also. Nice!

    I've learnt how to nourish myself like a plant, with sun and fertilizer.
    The sun is me, my hope, my focus, my strengths, the fertilizer are ...other human beings I love to be with.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    Port ? Or pot ? That's probably again my english that sucks
    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM
    Unfortunately we are all fucking contagious Smile and see what happens around you......

  6. #6
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Hi @Jayce I don’t remember interacting with you before. Nice to “meet you” & thanks for answering my thread.

    And what comes to the hypothesis you have about the world: Not everyone is out to figure themselves out. Well, not to the extent of NF at least. Seems it is in our nature, and in human nature, but our NF nature emphasizes it strongly.

    I bolded the ‘IF’ because it this is not a personally held hypothesis. I was more throwing out questions to see what would bounce back (grin). It would be difficult for me to settle on ONE thing that life is ‘about’

    I agree NF’s ‘go there’ more than most!

    Or rather, in a different way. The thing is that you get to observe someone from the outside, which is something the person in question can never truly do. This way you can see parts of someone who doesn't see them himself. When you hang out with someone long enough, given that the communication is deep, you get to know someone on a level that might have eluded themselves. This is both frightening and soothing. The best mirror for ourselves is another person.

    Gorgeous expressions. The last line is especially poignant.

    But most of all, I love people who are true to themselves and to others. Any faking is a no go.
    Just being yourself is the best thing you can do. Then you attract people who are attracted to you.


    Yes. That is why I mentioned being authentic. I have had people worry that I am being deceptive when holding back and it is SO not the case. As you said, I sometimes can’t give more at that moment even if I desire to. But, I would never withhold pertinent information or BE anything other than > real. I want to be accepted/loved ‘warts and all’ so might as well show em’…

    There are always things you can't know. When you get to know someone, you find a vast ocean of a person. I think one lifetime is kinda short to know oneself truly, yet another person. There is beauty in not knowing, I've found it best to appreciate this. A relationship could just be that never ending quest to know someone. I'd prefer finding someone with whom the quest would take me a lifetime.

    I was asking in general, yes. When my husband died I was surprised at the things I did not know about him. Because we were very connected (tho not clinging, shudder). This did not bother me. I actually found it (still do) comforting. That he had other experiences & dynamics with people outside of my purview fascinates and exhilarates me. He was even MORE than I already knew and appreciated. I won't ever know all of it but I know how expansive his reach was on the world.

    I was taken by your wording “vast ocean of a person”. When flying over the ocean you see how it goes on forever. But, how beautiful it is and what fun to play on!

    I see we feel the same re: freedom and union

    INFp translates to INFJ in MBTI. Are you sure of your type?

    I frequently get asked IRL if I am an INFJ and sometimes test out as one. My friends who are into this schtuff are undecided. I relate a bit more to INFP MBTI/Socionic descriptors but see J correlations in other aspects of typing. I think that I know why I have adopted more of the logical and rational aspects of J, but feel private about it for now.

    So = no. I am not sure and am always open to feedback and the possibility of changing a long held belief if the appropriate evidence is presented.

  7. #7
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExNinjaTropPervertie View Post
    Port ? Or pot ? That's probably again my english that sucks

    Porto, I think? Vin doux...Noilly Prat...


  8. #8
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    only 30+ yrs
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  9. #9
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    only 30+ yrs
    You know I admire your avoidance of verbiage. I want to make sure I caught your train of thought tho. Are you referring here to knowing one's SELF?

  10. #10
    Senior Member RedAmazoneFriendZone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Porto, I think? Vin doux...Noilly Prat...

    Oh...I see. Do you mean it seems I have been drinking when you are reading my texts written with much care here ?

    ALL THAT WE SEE OR SEEM TO BE IS BUT A DREAM WITHIN A DREAM
    Unfortunately we are all fucking contagious Smile and see what happens around you......
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