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[MBTI General] Thinkers, prejudiced against Feelers?

Coriolis

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It mirrors some of the Thinking-obsessed ideology in typology circles as a whole: Even if the "ideal mode" of rationality is "T instead of F", the most socially-oriented standard... therefore, the most pragmatic, widely-applicable theories on how to govern humanity, cannot be "sussed-out" without reading people-oriented systems in a rational manner. And that information can't be gathered without actually having a multitude of people-- some F in a strong position (xxFx's), and some T in a strong position (xxTx's)-- to collaborate.
Have you seen that "thinking-obsessed ideology" here? I'm sure you can find it, but I wouldn't say it predominates. Browse around the forum some more, and you will see plenty of F aux/dom critiques of this, and assertions of the opposite perspective.

There is a certain irony to this prejudice, as well, considering they often fixate on the importance of 'Truth'. The arrogance that comes from often being that accomplished in an area that our society values highly (IQ) coupled with the lack of mastery in the emotional field (EQ) only seems to confirm their bias that other people aren't worth valuing as highly as themselves, resulting in the most obnoxious delusional state ever - and a cozy, comfy immature state that conveniently rebuffs any need for personal growth, forever dooming them to completely missing that precious Truth they so strongly advocate for.
It's not so much a matter of valuing (some) others less, as understanding there is probably little to be gained for either of us by extended interaction.
 

kyuuei

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Have you ever stepped foot into the INTJ forum? :coffee: If you haven't, save yourself the trip. Every stereotype (and dick measuring contest) rumor is true. Every. single. one.

Writing the word "feel" in any post is liable to get you a ban.
 

Amargith

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Have you seen that "thinking-obsessed ideology" here? I'm sure you can find it, but I wouldn't say it predominates. Browse around the forum some more, and you will see plenty of F aux/dom critiques of this, and assertions of the opposite perspective.


It's not so much a matter of valuing (some) others less, as understanding there is probably little to be gained for either of us by extended interaction.


That is absolutely true for you, ime. And you seem always more than willing to double check if that is the case, and explain if asked.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case for some of your fellow NTs. Unless you're willing to use their yardstick (and can do so competently - to their standards) in a discussion as it is clearly the height of all that matters, you're looked down upon as a frivolous waste of space that doesn't even warrant the basest of respect as a human being, as they pride themselves on measuring the value and quality of a person using ' level of intelligence' - skewed towards their version and interpretation of that trait, of course. These are, btw, the same people who argue that an animal's suffering or life isn't worth anything because they're supposedly stupid compared to us, and ours to do with what we want because of that. The lack of EQ is usually staggering.

Basically, you're second class citizen, at best, who needs to shut up and listen and let the big boys talk, since they know best. If you do open your mouth, the amount of moaning, sighing, tsk-ing and rolling of eyes almost drowns you out and hits you like the breath of a Gila monster.

Fwiw, I've also seen NFs who were like this - and tertiary/inferior T is even more ironic and harsh when it comes to this. It seems almost Stockholm Syndrome-ish in nature.

/ :soapbox:


Edit: I've also seen the opposite happen - Fs who clobber and guilt trip anyone who doesn't display the proper amount of sympathy/empathy towards others...which is highly ironic (as it does call into question their own EQ level and whether they meet their own standard), and I guess the extremes of the SJW community is representative of that.

Ultimately, I feel a combo of the two (and a healthy appreciation, for that matter) is what a person needs to truly navigate life successfully, even if you do have a preference for one over the other, and therefore a greater interest in interactions of that type.


Have you ever stepped foot into the INTJ forum? :coffee: If you haven't, save yourself the trip. Every stereotype (and dick measuring contest) rumor is true. Every. single. one.

Writing the word "feel" in any post is liable to get you a ban.

LOL.

I almost got reported and banned on INTPc for using emoticons in my posts and asking posters how they felt about (insert topic). I was honestly just being curious but they went nuts and accused me of trolling. The level of discomfort with any 'feelz' was...bizarre :shock:
 
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I had a very unhealthy INTP as a friend once. It infuriated me no end when he tried to invalidate my decision making by saying that feelers have no logical process whatsoever. He was very arrogant, obnoxious and insecure. In his mind, anyone who had a dom/aux feeling function could not make rational decisions and shouldn't have a voice in things.
At 20, I've nearly finished my first Bachelor of Science. Just because I have a dominant feeling function does not mean I cannot recognize and separate emotion-based thought/action from logic-based thought/action. It's just a bit harder than others to employ Te, but studying physics for 2 years certainly helped..

Pure logic doesn't always work, pure feeling doesn't always work. A balance of both however, does work. I personally don't believe one function or personality type is superior to another. Believing otherwise is pretty close minded in my opinion.

(Waits for a Thinker to come along and tell me my opinion is irrational and therefore invalid..)
 

Virtual ghost

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Have you ever stepped foot into the INTJ forum? :coffee: If you haven't, save yourself the trip. Every stereotype (and dick measuring contest) rumor is true. Every. single. one.

Writing the word "feel" in any post is liable to get you a ban.


Perhaps, but this is also consequence of collective mentality that pushes INTJs into their extremes because general climate requires that. Or they finally have a place where they can push their personality to its limits without having regrets about it.

However that forum probably has a fair amount of ISTJ in denial, which push things even further into the rigidity.
 

entropie

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Often, yes :coffee:

There is a certain irony to this prejudice, as well, considering they often fixate on the importance of 'Truth'. The arrogance that comes from often being that accomplished in an area that our society values highly (IQ) coupled with the lack of mastery in the emotional field (EQ) only seems to confirm their bias that other people aren't worth valuing as highly as themselves, resulting in the most obnoxious delusional state ever - and a cozy, comfy immature state that conveniently rebuffs any need for personal growth, forever dooming them to completely missing that precious Truth they so strongly advocate for.

Score.
I think there is a difference as well, between european thinker and american thinker
 

Coriolis

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Unfortunately, that isn't the case for some of your fellow NTs. Unless you're willing to use their yardstick (and can do so competently - to their standards) in a discussion as it is clearly the height of all that matters, you're looked down upon as a frivolous waste of space that doesn't even warrant the basest of respect as a human being, as they pride themselves on measuring the value and quality of a person using ' level of intelligence' - skewed towards their version and interpretation of that trait, of course. These are, btw, the same people who argue that an animal's suffering or life isn't worth anything because they're supposedly stupid compared to us, and ours to do with what we want because of that. The lack of EQ is usually staggering.
I must admit that I often do take this perspective, especially on topics which (at least IME) really are best handled using objective analysis. For me, though, it is enough for the other person to try to approach the situation in those terms. Even if they aren't that good at it, even if they also want to apply other yardsticks; if they are at least willing to try to follow my analysis and respond in kind, that is enough. And if not, I don't write them off as lesser humans, though I might decide there is no point in interacting further as we are on much too different wavelengths.

I think there is a difference as well, between european thinker and american thinker
How so? What differences do you see?
 

Amargith

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I must admit that I often do take this perspective, especially on topics which (at least IME) really are best handled using objective analysis. For me, though, it is enough for the other person to try to approach the situation in those terms. Even if they aren't that good at it, even if they also want to apply other yardsticks; if they are at least willing to try to follow my analysis and respond in kind, that is enough. And if not, I don't write them off as lesser humans, though I might decide there is no point in interacting further as we are on much too different wavelengths.

And therein lies the difference :)

Look, I won't deny that I too use my preference to gauge people - hell, I just did when I pointed this stuff out. For me, to enjoy an interaction, I do demand a certain level of F from the other person - to at least acknowledge that I'm a human being that deserves to be treated as a person and not an object. It just makes the conversation that much more enjoyable. On top of that, I do enjoy someone who will appreciate the finer nuances of how people act, think, respond to things and can at least display a modicum of empathy, someone who has the ability to at least put themselves into other people's shoes somewhat and considers that info to be important to keep in mind.

But I also am perfectly capable of appreciating someone who isn't capable (yet) of doing such things, or even someone who is aware of this and just not interested in learning this stuff but will sidestep and listen to others who are versed in this when the situation warrants it. I get not wanting to learn this shit, and I get it not being your cup of tea. We may not have much in common to discuss, but I have absolutely no problems with people like that, nor do I get in their way. There is the faintest modicum of respect there for others, enough to avoid, defer or attempt the most basest of skill there and that is enough. My standard for that in others really isn't that high, just because my own preference is.

And you've just shown and demonstrated the same thing on the T side of things. You may prefer that people are rational and use those tools and it bothers you when they don't, but you don't actually demand that everyone has that same standard or use it to look down on others, feel superior or even *bully* them for daring to do such injustice to 'the Truth'. Often, people who do this, are aware (coz others have told them so, repeatedly!) of the fact that they do this, that they have absolutely no respect for others who think differently, and feel justified to treat others that way because they're a disposable waste of space. They do have a minimal capacity for empathy, often, but, like an atrophied muscle of a couch potato, they could care less about exercising it because that would cost actual energy - and unlike the couch potato, they burden and take their shit out on others with their 'laziness', instead and feel justified to do so because they wouldn't do so if that other person wasn't so useless - at least now they do have a use( Ive heard people *literally* say this).

(These people are also different from people who actually absolutely lack that empathy but who are aware and trying, and in the process, end up hurting people in their clumsiness. I have nothing but respect for such people and I will go out of my way to buffer and accommodate them in their efforts. That is utterly commendable, after all.

And, to add to the complexity: I've seen both attitudes exist in one individual, as they struggle to figure this out - often because they *want* to be understood and loved by others, but their own belief systems are trapping them in thoughts that causes them do treat others this callously, which of course causes them to get rejected by the same people they were trying to impress/get respect, love and understanding from, which then causes them to reject those people in turn,and on and on.)

Btw, you have the same type of people on my side, the dreaded extremist SJW who ironically show their own immature F by demanding that *everyone* live up to their standard, involvement and passion for a cause or injustice by *bullying* them into that and shaming the crap out of everyone - and in turn, get high on the power boost, righteous, superior feeling and 'legitimate' bullying of others.

I get where that kind of power trip comes from and why it is addictive - it's an instant boost for a damaged ego, warding off insecurity for a little while. But to utilise it as your go-to coping system is just unjustifiable, imho, and yet utterly mainstream to do.
 

entropie

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How so? What differences do you see?

The behaviour Amargith described, I almost exclusively find it only on this forum. I have the Impression that self-reflection and a bit of empathy for others comes more natural to people around my place. We have other downsides for example being a SJ society, innovation in any field doesn't come naturally to people. But I think it is SJ as well that keeps people grounded, an arrogant nerd for instance is excluded from society due to the way he treats others. Around the forum sometimes those people became the Center of attention in the past.
 

Amargith

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The behaviour Amargith described, I almost exclusively find it only on this forum. I have the Impression that self-reflection and a bit of empathy for others comes more natural to people around my place. We have other downsides for example being a SJ society, innovation in any field doesn't come naturally to people. But I think it is SJ as well that keeps people grounded, an arrogant nerd for instance is excluded from society due to the way he treats others. Around the forum sometimes those people became the Center of attention in the past.

Huh..I think you're referring to the roots of what instituted and is known as as the Janteloven, here. It's typical for germanic cultures (we have it down in Belgium as well), and yes, tends to be at odds with..well, american (and other culture's) values, for instance.

That thing does have its downsides though - it makes it so that you get completely shamed for taking pride in yourself and anything you're good at, if it's pushed too far, the other way.
 

fetus

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I wonder if we live in a more Thinking society.
 

Coriolis

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Huh..I think you're referring to the roots of what instituted and is known as as the Janteloven, here. It's typical for germanic cultures (we have it down in Belgium as well), and yes, tends to be at odds with..well, american (and other culture's) values, for instance.

That thing does have its downsides though - it makes it so that you get completely shamed for taking pride in yourself and anything you're good at, if it's pushed too far, the other way.
I had never heard of this. Thanks for the reference. Looks like the antidote to Ayn Rand.

I wonder if we live in a more Thinking society.
How could you even consider that, with the American electorate on the verge of making the likes of Donald Trump a presidential nominee?
 

Cellmold

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Huh..I think you're referring to the roots of what instituted and is known as as the Janteloven, here. It's typical for germanic cultures (we have it down in Belgium as well), and yes, tends to be at odds with..well, american (and other culture's) values, for instance.

That thing does have its downsides though - it makes it so that you get completely shamed for taking pride in yourself and anything you're good at, if it's pushed too far, the other way.

I agree to an extent, you need individual self-respect and a degree of pride.

But with some people I find myself trying to figure out what is it they take pride in, exactly?
 

Kheledon

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Excellent post with some interesting observations.

I would add that there's definitely a gender bias (in the West, at least) on the F/T axis. I always take a second look at the typology of women who initially type themselves as F (as many of them are actually Ts). I am even more suspicious of men who initially type as T (as many of them are Fs). I mis-typed myself as a T for a long time. Many men do, I think, as a result of this deeply-ingrained cultural bias. Socionics addresses this issue by changing the names of the cognitive preferences on the F/T axis to Ethical vs. Logical. That seems to alleviate some of the gender bias that causes people to mis-type themselves on this axis.

As for your suggestion that Fe and Fi are not (alone) the sources of empathy in people, I wouldn't disagree, per se. What I would say is that Fe is empathy (but that Fi is not empathy, as Fi is a set of internalized values, some good and some bad). That said, the fact that someone is strong in Fe does not necessarily mean that they will use their ability to "feel" the emotions of others in a "good" way. Fe can be used for either good or evil. I suspect that many sociopaths are very strong in Fe. They just use it in a very selfish and manipulative manner. I still think that Fe is "empathy" in the sense of being able to "feel" the emotions of others, but this in no way implies that people who are strong in Fe will be "good" people. Empathy does not directly correlate with kindness and compassion.
 

fetus

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How could you even consider that, with the American electorate on the verge of making the likes of Donald Trump a presidential nominee?

I guess it's all in which aspect you're looking at. I mean, at least in my experience, it's all about logic, no feelings, suppress it all, get it done. Sometimes I just want to feel. But then, I'm prone to special snowflakiness, so my perspective is skewed.
 

Virtual ghost

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How so? What differences do you see?


I will take this Euro/American bite as well.


I agree with Entropy that

I have the Impression that self-reflection and a bit of empathy for others comes more natural to people around my place


We are socially much more integrated through education, healthcare ... etc and therefore we are not so stubbornly individualistic. What in America you can see as rational here doesn't pass as rational. Especially since the whole continent is full of graveyards from previous wars and therefore pushing the conflict over the certain line is considered quite rude and problematic.


However I am not from a SJ country like Entropy. I am from P/SP country and therefore we clearly prefer Ti over Te in alot of ways. This is basically the outcome of history since endless dictarorships have forbiden Te, since it was a threat. What pushed people towards improvisation due to very little resources available, therefore they had to improvise and make half solutions on the move.
 
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