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FPs, describe Fi as you understand it

HongDou

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Also what Southern Kross said haha
 

violet_crown

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I experienced the development of aux Fi in three developmental stages and in three arenas.

The first stage was the raw version. You get visceral gut reactions, this fire alarm that goes off inside you when something isn't right, and the utter feeling of bliss when something is exactly right - you cannot explain it, and you are kind of dumbfounded to find that others don't necessarily share this experience.

And so, you turn within to figure out what emotions get triggered by what and how they make sense, when they're reliable information and how to fine-tune their accuracy, as well as what to take away from it and put into action. The last part is hardest. From repeated application, certain values come into focus, which become the axioms of your value system. Almost all Fi-users seem to develop the value 'respect other peoples preferences as long as they don't harm others' from this process, because it would be kind of hypocritical not to, when you kind of want others to do the same for you :D

It might also be the reason why most Fi-users Ive met seem to have a yearning desire to be understood and actually show love themselves by attempting the same for the other person (the mastery of which happened in stage 2, arena 2 for me)

So, this is how most people seem to start their development of aux Fi(Ne), ime, though some people might start with the second arena (for instance, because their environment triggers the need to read other people to ensure their survival and cope with chronic stress - think abusive situations). And of course, it is possible to have a stage 1 mastery while trying to use on arena 2, in which case they may come across as rather 'bumbling', or to use arena 3 skills on stage 1 to fine-tune your understanding of Self even more, and so on.

The second arena is other people. Once you have a grasp of how things work within and you've noticed that others don't necessarily work the same way and for that matter, show internal inconsistencies, you can then use that curiosity to try and 'personality map' others. You start with the template you already have - yourself, and start marking down the differences as you observe them.

How would I feel if I were them in this situation? -> this is the most basic way to engage empathy within anyone. And it is useful, in its most basic state, in a pinch. It can give you a general idea of the situation you're in, with them, if you do not have any other information.

But arena two also shows the need for stage two:

Experimentation indicates that they don't react as you would in that in that situation. At least not every time. So - what makes up the difference?
Observation eventually leads you to conclude that they hold different axiomatic values than you do. Which makes sense:

- their background is different from yours, after all. But, it's more than that.
- Their personality and the behavioural patterns they display also differ from yours

So, you need as much intel as possible on these parameters for you to make an accurate personality map. Questions and in depth talks are the way to go :wink:

So now, we have three elements to the equation: the situation, their personality and their past.

The use of the last variable depends on the mastery of stage 1, imho. It's the ability to take your own emotions out of the equation, neutralise them completely so you can insert 'their personality codex' in lieu of your own, and effectively allows you to perfect stage two: mapping out and predicting in arena two: others. Doing this kind of feels like stepping into one of them virtual 3D devices or a flight simulator, allowing you can literally walk a mile in another shoes. It's only a simulator and the accuracy depends on its programming, and it's not without its limitations...but it's still fucking awesome. It helps answer such burning questions as: how do they experience life? Why is this shit so important to them? How did they get here? The thing I love most about it is that you see the person's matrix - their code. Their past, where it lead them, their journey, and all that they can still achieve in their live. Their raw potential :heart:

Caveat: Those who started with area two due to circumstances, need a chance to complete arena 1 in order to actually fully master arena 2.

After doing plenty of stage 2 in arena 2, you gather enough intel and patterns (again, NFP here, though I'd imagine that SFPs do this based other experiences instead, which could explain their avant-guarde way of predicting society and inspiring it with their work, touching just the right value within each individual) so you get access to arena 3 and stage 3:

The development of universal values. Tracking down everyone's values to their core root, to..well, the DNA stage of each unique value, really and from there on distill and articulate them in such a way that they can be universally applied in society without (theoretically) infringing on anyone's unique way of interpreting them or their preferences of how to use them. Everything is checked and double-checked and checked again for internal consistency and upmost flexibility to respect each individuals preferences while yielding maximum gain in the long-run.

Then it's a matter of seeding these values like a butterfly does with pollen to others. Championing them. Testing them out, seeing how others respond, if they need more work and fine-tuning on the way they resonate with people, how beneficial they will actually be, how theory translates into practice, and how potent the idea is regarding viral spreading (it may need 're-branding' to really deliver its message, for instance). Transparency regarding your agenda is *huuuge* in this stage, so people really do feel inspired for themselves, that it is their own choice to adopt this because it is right to *them*.

After this, I leave things in the capable hands of TJs and FJs - Fjs to implement it socially, TJs to build the systems to turn theory into reality.


Note: I am aware that as an ENFP 4 with an apparently really heavy-handed Fi, this is likely not the process that even other ENFPs have followed. And I would imagine that INFPs likely go beyond what I've described in applying their Fi to *everything* as it is their dominant perspective - not just to themselves, to others and to society/universal values.


Anycase, that was my two cents :offtobed:

There's some super beautiful stuff that's been posted in this thread so far. I really loved what you've written here, Amar.

I had a question: do you ever find yourself in situations that what you pick up from your Stage 2 Fi use is in conflict with your Stage 1 use?

Like, for instance, I feel like I frequently get into situations where personal feelings can override empathy, and I wonder if that's something you deal with. If so, how do you address it?
 

Amargith

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There's some super beautiful stuff that's been posted in this thread so far. I really loved what you've written here, Amar.

I had a question: do you ever find yourself in situations that what you pick up from your Stage 2 Fi use is in conflict with your Stage 1 use?

Like, for instance, I feel like I frequently get into situations where personal feelings can override empathy, and I wonder if that's something you deal with. If so, how do you address it?

Yup. In fact, it's one of the biggest questions to answer in stage 2.

Ultimately, I've found it's a simple cost/benefits question: Is the intel you're getting worth putting yourself aside for? Will it help you with your goal? And how much are you required to flex?

For instance, in the past, I've spent a loooot of time researching on here - to the point where some called me a doormat. Because I set my own values aside to listen to other people's povs (and possibly 'test-drive' those povs myself in order to gain more understanding), often at the expense of my own contribution, my own voice and even..my own self as they weren't always...let's say, respectful? The intel I got from that was worth that kind of sacrifice. It helped me clarify my own values, it helped me understand their pov better and therefore enrich my own. It gave me the tools to fine-tune my Fi. And, there was the added bonus of relating and empathising with people who often feel misunderstood and are angry about not being heard - something that does touch upon my own past. I know personally just how..soothing to the soul it can be to find someone who is willing to look *beneath* and give you the benefit of the doubt.

You'll notice that...nowadays, while I'm still capable of that kind of flexing, I'm a lot..less motivated to do so because I've been there already. Extensively so. I might do a one-on-one with someone who is radiating pain, if only to help them over the hump, give back and at the same time rid myself of that 'must fix it' urge, but I'm done doing that for actual understanding/intel gathering purposes. Cost/benefit. These days, in fact, I'm working a lot more on fine-tuning the Self and am a lot more selective about the type of communications I'm actually ok with. It took me a while to truly feel ok in saying 'ya know what, this type of communication is actually too toxic for me. Im going to opt out.' and for once value my own health, as it were, over flexing to always facilitate communication and gain possible further insight.

Two caveats:

1) You're actually endangering yourself by putting yourself aside - no intel is worth that. And I did walk a tight rope on that myself once in a while. And you know what - some values are worth terminating the intel-gathering for. You have to protect your core and know how far you can push yourself. And there is no shame in those limitations or in walking away as long as you do so consciously and respectfully towards the other party. Took me ages to fine-tune that one, myself.

2) You're not ready. It is perfectly ok to recognise that while you may want to empathise with someone, it's just not in your toolbox yet. Some things just cause a visceral stage 1 reaction and are things that still need to be re-examined in stage 1, in arena 1 before they're taken into stage 2. There is nothing wrong with that feeling, but since you haven't done the actual work on it yet, you cannot expect to run before you can walk, with it. If they trigger that kind of personal response in you, suspend all judgement of the other person and first check what is setting you off. Did they actually trip a core value? Does it apply in this case? Or is it just a raw emotion that's on the loose and doesn't warrant actual action? And if so, where did it come from? Ask the other person for some time and return once you've figured it out. If they need help and someone to actually empathise with their situation but it's beyond your capabilities - whether for now or even in general - see if you can find someone who can step in, instead.

Nobody says you have to do this shit all by yourself. And nobody says you have to actually master it. Having some self-awareness and having a general good handle on how to address this shit is plenty, for most people :shrug:

Ultimately, to address this properly means that you need to have finished stage 1 - that means being crystal clear about what you stand for, in which situation, why and what the caveats are. Of course, that's a work in progress throughout our lives, but that's the theory, any case. When you have that kind of clarity, it becomes really easy to see how you can manipulate and flex your own values 'for the greater good', or rather, to suit any situation as a rigid system will fail to cover all possible circumstances (for instance: the value doesn't have to apply in this situation, right now it's not going to make a huge difference if I temporarily suppress that 'sacred cow', this person won't harm anyone while we're talking, this person is still learning and is actually trying to not do harm to others so I can afford to give him the benefit of the doubt, and show them support, this person just really needs someone who understands them and acknowledges them in order to be able to see beyond his own needs which are screaming at him right now, etc etc).

In essence, it means resolving the value of Self vs Others within yourself. And that's the big one in stage 2. In which situations, within which circumstances and on what topics do *I* and my preferences take priority and in which situations do *others* come into play and even take priority? And how do I balance out the two fairly and with the least amount of harm to anyone (that's part of my value system so it's a bit coloured by that :D). And when is it perfectly ok to opt out and just stick to my own preferences and way of viewing things? For me, that answer is: when it's unlikely to cause any harm to anyone else and there is no 'greater good' to flex for.

Once you map that value out extensively, navigating those kind of interactions becomes a breeze.
 

Jaguar

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'respect other peoples preferences as long as they don't harm others'

My father's attitude, as well as my own. But then some may argue what constitutes "harm." And we're off to the debate races. Again. I recall a guy posting about being "harmed" by something that struck me as absurd. But those are his values, not mine. He's entitled to his as I am entitled to mine.
 

gromit

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I think for me a part of Fi is wanting to live my values, including for others.

Like my current career of physical therapy is really based on what is important to me. Health and well-being, autonomy. I want to help people decrease their pain, to give them the opportunity to experience the satisfaction of doing something they couldn't imagine doing because of a medical condition.

And it makes me angry when "the system" screws people over. I'm participating in an internship in DC this spring to learn more about how my profession interacts with the political sphere. I never would have thought I'd get into politics but I can see this experience helping me to better understand what we are up against in terms of changing legislation and policies so they are more fair to patients' needs.

So that is Fi to me, it underlies actions.
 

Dreamer

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Emotions in general are bizarre to me. I don't feel much like sticking within the confines of what Fi is, or what Fe is, since I've known my emotions and sort of internal "system" far longer than I knew of MBTI and began relating some to Fi and some to Fe only recently.

Eh ok, well, basically, everything to me has a sort of emotional presence, objects and people. Yes, this involves some inferior Si, but nonetheless, my emotions are at least somewhat attached to objects at times as well. So since everything and everyone gives off this emotional presence, or, really, how they affect me on some level, I give things a sort of weight or significance. This will all seem methodical and uber logic based, but only until recently after talking with some friends on the forum, did I realize that I sort of compartmentalize emotions just as I do any other sort of understanding, strange. So ya, because I am wholly aware of how things affect me, I try my best to avoid the negative influences, and do my best to surround myself with the positive. I don't know what it is, but I feel i also tend to feel the extremes of whatever emotion I'm feeling. It's in these times, that I tend to create my best artwork and creative contributions. They aren't just kinda there, and I can't just ignore them, they are always at the forefront.

Going back to how I tend to compartmentalize emotions, when it comes to my own, they feel more like fluff, this vague substance that I feel so strongly for, positive or negative. I know how to moderate it fairly well, and what my triggers are, but for the most part, that end of things isn't too "logical". However, when friends come to me for advice and helping them through tough times, and it tends to happen often even if I don't seek it out most the time, I approach their issue in a very Te sort of approach and deduce everything down to figuring out exactly what's wrong and how to fix it, on an emotional level, and helping my friends to pinpoint their true needs and way to happiness. I feel when I'm helping out a friend, I can feel all the functions working so cohesively and it's a beautiful thing. Not all situations can do that for me, but this is one that I can recall, that does that. I can't say for certain, but I have a feeling my ability to hear others out come directly from analyzing and being so in tune with my own emotions growing up.

So umm...ya, emotions, fun stuff. So again, I didn't want to explain my emotions in terms of specific Fi "language" if that makes any sense. So the above may come across one way or the other and that's fine. Let's just call this post a giant "F" according to Dreamer. Like my post over in the Ne thread, this one could EASILY go on much longer, but I'll cap it here :)
 

Lia_kat

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It's somewhat hard to explain but for me it's almost like an instinct. Intuitiveness. Awareness of all emotions within me and other people. I relate to [MENTION=25763]Enthusiastic_Dreamer[/MENTION] in that everything has an emotional presence. In my case it nourishes an internal desire to help and make a difference. Like [MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] said, it underlies actions. I also work in the healthcare field.
 

Starry

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[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION]

Fi is my heart and soul. It is the gravity that keeps me grounded on this earth when every other force would have me flying away. It is a hearth in a grand and drafty room. My North Star. The spirit that keeps me connected to all of Life and holds me accountable to the Great Unseen. It is insistent. It has me standing on the top of a mountain alone surrounded by all of my failures and it tells me "you are worthy." It tells me that all things destined for goodness must be built on a foundation of Truth. It tells me to be true to myself and honor what is true in others.
 

Dreamer

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[MENTION=24479]themightyfetus[/MENTION]

Fi is my heart and soul. It is the gravity that keeps me grounded to this earth when every other force would have me flying away. It is a hearth in a grand and drafty room. My North Star. The spirit that keeps me connected to all of Life and holds me accountable to the Great Unseen. It is insistent. It has me standing on the top of a mountain alone surrounded by all of my failures and it tells me "you are worthy." It tells me that all things destined for goodness must be built on a foundation of Truth. It tells me to be true to myself and honor what is true in others.

This is absolute poetry, Starry. I totally agree. I've always thought of my emotions as my soul, the true me, my individual, long before I knew of MBTI and what Fi was. My creativity and fantastical mind has always brought me my enjoyment in life, but it is my soul that keeps me going through uncertain times and uncertain futures.
 

thoughtlost

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I am just going to give my honest opinion and say that "Fi is my heart and soul ...the true me" can also lead to mistype because it implies that Fe people don't use their "heart and soul" to be creative. Not that you guys are trying to say that that Fe users don't use their heart and soul, but it's usually described that Fe don't know what they think and feel ...but base off of the ExFJs on this forum, I can say that this is not true.

However, I understand where Starry and Enthusiastic Dreamer are coming from. When you lead with a perceiving function, one can be quite ungrounded. Doesn't matter if it's Ne or Si or Se or Ni. You need a Je or Ji function to keep you tethered to have a conscious knowing of what something is, what you think/feel and can give you a sense of direction.

I have to go play in the snow, so I'll come back to think things through.
 

Starry

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This is absolute poetry, Starry. I totally agree. I've always thought of my emotions as my soul, the true me, my individual, long before I knew of MBTI and what Fi was. My creativity and fantastical mind has always brought me my enjoyment in life, but it is my soul that keeps me going through uncertain times and uncertain futures.



Thank you ED (I know I have more to say but wanted to quickly catch and thank you while I knew you were online. I will also be sending you some classic and contemporary poetry selections...you know...just to check and see if you still feel the same later on... :wink: )
 

Starry

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I am just going to give my honest opinion and say that "Fi is my heart and soul ...the true me" can also lead to mistype because it implies that Fe people don't use their "heart and soul" to be creative.

^^I think the "primary focus" is what separates extroverted and introverted functions so that an Fe individual may share a very similar internal experience as I describe...but it isn't what will be expressed outwardly or emphasized. It's these same dynamics that cause people to assume "Fi may be be all spiritual but it clearly doesn't give a shit about anyone other than *special snowflake # 1*

Anyway, I wanted to write more normally about Fi for some of the reasons you suggest...but had to do it that way against my will :wink:
 

Eluded_One

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I have pornographic memory. It's the only way I can describe it.
 

Betty Blue

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Well I think we all use Fe as well as Fi. I'm eager not to do an 'fe tard' post because i'm pretty sure I can do fe... though really i'd rather not. So it's preference. Fi for me is not superior to fe... intact the way i see it, fi is selfish internally. I hold on to my own pain and i do not want to share it... it's almost like that would water it down... and it's mine and it's important to me.

Fe is more outwardly selfish, it wants people to acknowledge it, it wants external confirmation, it wants everyone to be on board and share in the same emotions, it wants definition and convention at the cost of the individuals involved.

Imo Fi is my leftist individualism
fe is my socialist government
 

prplchknz

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oh shit i keep meaning to reply but keep forgetting not sure if i can do this justice. but here it goes. p.s. my brain feels stupid but i keep meaning to say something and if i don't say it now i'll forget again

ok so fi to me is i treat everyone on an indivdual level all situations are seperate yes there can be overlap but it's not like everything is exactly the same. I'm more live and let live. I do have internal values that i measure stuff against, but there are exceptions there are always exceptions. I don't tell people my values because that's not important i don't get mad at people for having different values, because it comes down to everyone is an indivdual. I dislike when people are less than honest especially with themselves, yet i'm guilty of this, so i get it. I have no issue with calling someone out for that, and it's not because i think it will hurt them it will hurt for a bit, but i think in the long run will do good. Fi is not me telling you what to believe, frankly i don't care. what i do care about is that you try to be honest with yourself and everyone around you. The only time i think lying is ok is in a life or death situation and if you told the truth you would die, like lets say some psycho bitch is about to stab you because you slept with boy friend ok first of all: :nono: but she has no proof it's ok to lie then. and probably change your number and move. and i'm never right about everything, and suprisingly ok with being wrong, where people get it twisted is they give flimsy evidence as to why i'm wrong and i'm like errmm no but when i have proof i'm wrong. I don't claim to know the insides of anyone or what people think or feel cuz honestly that's bullshit. I can get a sense but i'm sometimes wrong,

ok that was more coherent then i expected. i also just had a redbull so there.
 
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Without Fi I would be lost. Fi is my morals and values, the ideals that keep me driven to consistently live a better life and self-improve. Fi is the core basis of every decision I make. Fi leaves me lying in bed at 3am in the morning, wide awake because I see so much pain and hurt in the world and it frustrates and dejects me no end that no matter how much I do, I can't make everyone better. But at the same time Fi is the constant, nagging need to make the world around me a better place, regardless of how much my efforts go unappreciated or walked over.
Fi is what grounds me. When I'm overwhelmed I can go find a completely quiet place in the countryside and listen to sad music until I've completely rationalized/understood or released what I'm feeling.
Fi is a structure, a tool to constantly keep understanding and reassessing ideas about observations of the outside world.
Fi is serious, deeply personal, sensitive, secretive and incredibly intense, maybe too much at times. Fi is a struggle to be openly assertive.
Fi is complex and generally (in my experience) completely misinterpreted and misunderstood to the outside observer (not their fault) and they get the surprise of their life when they directly violate or obstruct ideals held by Fi.
Fi is forever stuck on the fence between worrying about being too selfish and worrying about giving too much to people that it's wasted on.
Fi is resilience.
 

Flâneuse

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The most succinct description I've heard of Fi is basically that it's like 1) a filter that separates the personally essential from the inessential (which is a continuous process; over time those values can change), and 2) a force that drives you to preserve or pursue what is personally sacred to you.

Because I recognize I have unique values and wish to be free to live my life in line with them, I also have respect for others' pursuit of meaning and happiness and believe that it is ideal for human freedom (and by extension, human life) to be regarded as sacred. (Though I don't believe anything is objectively sacred. We make things sacred through belief.) To sum it up, it's essential we turn life into something meaningful, it's individuals who generate meaning (and then share it with one another through interpersonal connections, helping other individuals to find meaning as well), so respect the individual and their pursuit of meaning. (By respect, I mean 'recognize the value of', not necessarily 'admire'.)

Other than this, I'm not big on formulating universal moral ideals. It's live and let live, basically. I'm mainly focused on trying to be as in touch with myself as possible, and finding and pursuing what's most important to me. I don't see this as entirely selfish, because I believe when people are in touch with their truest selves and know what they value most deeply they have more to offer others, especially connection and insight.
 
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