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[MBTI General] The 5th letter in MBTI?

Eric B

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Yes that's me, I am Mark Anthony Rockliff. I did those correlations in 1997-1998. And it has always surprised me that others don't see the connections. It's disappointing but that's the way it is.

I do understand that part of the resistance is due to the rules of science, nothing can be subjective and testing personality is difficult due to the complexities. Any way I'm ok with it. Part of the disappointment is that I like looking for correlations and I'm excited about moving my focus to the layer of the 36 Tri-loops, because 6 multiplied by 6 = 36.

OK, and I initially had thought that ambidextrous functions were just a part of Socionics. Then, I came to realize it was just one interpretation of the theory.
Look at what your essay had inspired here years ago:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ve-functions/7087-ambiverts-4.html#post267626

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ive-functions/16815-76-personality-types.html

(I apparently didn't cite your article there, but even before that ⦅summer '07⦆, I had first introduced the idea on a private Yahoo list where I founded it on your article).
I didn't know anything about tritypes yet, but had noted the similarity of the enneatyopes to the five temperaments, and the whole "ambidextrous" concept function really caught my attention.
 

KitchenFly

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I am going to have a good read of your links Eric B

It may take me a few days to run it though my mind because I need to gain a feel for the typology language so to say.

I will post soon perhaps Monday.

If you mimic the same for all the types except the 5w6 and 1w9 you will see the 36 Tri-loops.

I'm thinking perhaps we could have a look at each other's work and see if something real some thing larger can be manifested. Don't worry about the stacking's if you decide to look at them the new idea or model in more detail because I am confident for say the 5w4 below the basics are the same regardless of the stacking for the type.

So there most likely will only be eighteen sets to record accurately.
This basic part is at this stage is what is important, I have bone the work by having the basic one to one correlations that you know so just mimic the pattern for the 16 and you can think of what you think the 5w6 and 1w9 maybe. Perhaps a INFP for 5w6 with a cortex leading stile F value definition. And a I'm not shore for the 1w9.



Example: 5w4 So/Sx , T-N,S,F , Ti-Ne,Se,Fe , Ti-Se , Ne-Fi , Fe-Fe ,

The actions of the three dynamics ( Ti-Se , Ne-Fi , Fe-Fe ).

Ti = 5 = Preferred function for the 5w4.
Ne = w4 = 4w3 Preferred function Ne.
Fi = w6 = 6w7 Preferred function Fi.
Se = 7w6's = Point of Stress 7w6's Preferred function = Se.
Fe = 5w4's fourth/ Lest preferred function fourth function = Fe.
Fe = 8w9's preferred function Fe.




Example: 9w1 Sx/Sp , F-N,S,T , Fi-Ne,Se,Te , Fi-Ni , Te-Fe , Te-Si ,

The actions of the three dynamics ( Fi-Ni , Te-Fe , Te-Si ).

Fi = 9 = Preferred function for the 9w1.
Te = w1 = 1w2 Preferred function Te.
Fe = w8 = 8w9 Preferred function Fe.
Ni = 6w5's = Point of Stress 6w5's Preferred function = Ni.
Te = 9w1's fourth/ Lest preferred function fourth function = Te.
Si = 3w2's preferred function Si.




Example: 3w4 So/Sx , T-S,N,F , Ti-Se,Ne,Fe , Ti-Ni , Ne-Si , Fe-Fi .

The actions of the three dynamics ( Ti-Ni , Ne-Si , Fe-Fi ).

Ti = 3 Preferred function for the 3w4.
Ne = w4 = 4w5 Preferred function Ne.
Si = w2 = 2w3 Preferred function Si.
Ni = 9w8 = Point of Stress 9w8's Preferred function = Ni.
Fe = 3w4's fourth/ Lest preferred function fourth function = Fe.
Fi = 6w7's preferred function Fi.


We will have some blank spots due to not including the two ambidextrous values but that's ok for now progress is the key.

If we can work out the temperament settings for each of the eighteen Sub-Types then we have a win.

Cheers
 

Eric B

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I seriously don't promote those old ideas any more. For one thing, now I know the function stack is really created by the ego structure, through its various “states” (archetypal complexes), which are established by the dominant and aux. positions. Back then, we thought it was all about the functions on their own.
Otherwise, I don't understand the rest of your theory with the functions and how they relate to Enneagram.
 

KitchenFly

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You can ask questions.

Her is an example of what I think maybe the setting for melancholy in the 5w4 So/Sx - NeTiSiFe(Se)

I can see that structure with in the persona of the INTP 5w4 So/Sx.

Se would come from the first function of the ESFP 7w6 the point of stress for the INTP 5w4 So/Sx.

Ne would come from the four wing of the 5w4 ENFP components first preference Ne.

Ti would come from the first function of the INTP.

Si would come from the first function of the six wing of the 5w4 INTP's Second wing at Point:6 the energy of 6w7 ISFP (Si).

NeTiSiFe(Se)
 

KitchenFly

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Otherwise, I don't understand the rest of your theory with the functions and how they relate to Enneagram.

That doesn't make sense?

There are eighteen Sub-Types eighteen energies each distinct and flattered by other dynamics, Tritype and Trifix and instinctual variants.

A 9w1 energy in MBTI energy is simply INFP. You could say INFP Sx/Sp or 9w1 Sx/Sp they are the same two aspects within the same energy flux the two parts being the instinct energy and the 9w1/INFP energy. INFP and 9w1 are the same that is the INFP as a set grouping of four parts four notes resonating. There is a bit of complexity but the basics are the basics.

And don't get stuck thinking that there is just one INFP or one 9w1 there are six deferent INFP's six different 9w1's and the it don't stop there there is the tri-type component so you can add another 12, I think it is, 12 combinations so that's roughly 18 types of 9w1 INFP's.

So we are talking 324 basic personas. No wonder the would is full of dumb people who stick there noses up at my correlations. And I include the so called experts.

It's a no brainer.

How can you not understand?

It's there to be seen or there to be witnessed.

When you look at a rainbow you don't just say colour you as rainbow of colours.

Persona is the same it is not just one flux it is a multiplicity of frequencies that make as a group one flux persona personified.

Don't tell me you can not see it?

Personality is a flux.

Can not you detect that I am partly expressing Te and Fe , and Fi and Ni , and Te and Si within this post?
 

KitchenFly

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Any way your not interested, so be it. You properly solicited what you wanted the basic pattern. Well good for you, you could have simply asked for it if that was your agenda.

It's your topic forum so I will leave it to you to continue your enquiry relating to the fifth letter and the MBTI.

Cheers.
 

Eric B

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That doesn't make sense?

There are eighteen Sub-Types eighteen energies each distinct and flattered by other dynamics, Tritype and Trifix and instinctual variants.

A 9w1 energy in MBTI energy is simply INFP. You could say INFP Sx/Sp or 9w1 Sx/Sp they are the same two aspects within the same energy flux the two parts being the instinct energy and the 9w1/INFP energy. INFP and 9w1 are the same that is the INFP as a set grouping of four parts four notes resonating. There is a bit of complexity but the basics are the basics.

And don't get stuck thinking that there is just one INFP or one 9w1 there are six deferent INFP's six different 9w1's and the it don't stop there there is the tri-type component so you can add another 12, I think it is, 12 combinations so that's roughly 18 types of 9w1 INFP's.

So we are talking 324 basic personas. No wonder the would is full of dumb people who stick there noses up at my correlations. And I include the so called experts.

It's a no brainer.

How can you not understand?

It's there to be seen or there to be witnessed.

When you look at a rainbow you don't just say colour you as rainbow of colours.

Persona is the same it is not just one flux it is a multiplicity of frequencies that make as a group one flux persona personified.

Don't tell me you can not see it?

Personality is a flux.

Can not you detect that I am partly expressing Te and Fe , and Fi and Ni , and Te and Si within this post?
I wasn't expressing disinterest or sticking my nose up at the theory; I just said I didn't understand some of it. Like the basis of some of the pairups. Like you're saying 5w4 So/Sx is NeTiSiFe(Se). NeTi is an ENTP, (which often comes out 7w8 —which to me corresponds 7="Sanguine in Inclusion"=ENP aka "Get Things Going" Interaction Style, 8=Choleric in Control=NT). You seem to be discussing an INTP (with a "stronger" aux. Ne?), then that would likely be a 5w4, however, it doesn't fit my correlation, because 5 is Melancholy while INTP is Phlegmatic=Choleric (which theoretically should be some 9-8 combo) or Supine Choleric (Supine = 6 or 2 or 4).

So that's what I'm saying. I have the basis for my own correlation, but I don't understand yours, because years ago, when I saw the "ambidextrous function" concept on that page and the similarity of Enneagram to the classic temperaments, I just got that out of it and took it and ran off my own way with it, and never did get into tritypes and other stuff you're using like the disintegration or stress points (which is represented by the star figure, which is not even a geometrically correct enneagram). I did come to look at the tritypes more in recent years, after I gave up trying to correlate Enneatypes with the temperaments. To me, the instinctual variants sounded like the FIRO-B "Areas of need" Inclusion, Control and Affection (i.e. paralleling So, Sp and Sx), and that I should be 6so8sp6sx, but they don't mix that way, so I stopped forcing it. I do seem to come out some sort of 6 a lot of times, but usually strong 5 (as most other NT's), and with either a 4 or 6 wing. Last thing I got on one of the more detailed tests, which is in my signature, is 548 sp/sx (the 4 having an 8w and the 8 having a 9w). I still ned to understand the so/sp/sx more, and the disintegration would be an even more in depth study, to see how or if it fits the temperaments (like I remember reading that 5 disintegrates into 8, or maybe vice versa. Which makes some sense if they are respectively Melancholy and Choleric, because those two temperaments are closely related, in both being "task" focused, and "responding" to people in similar fashions. But I'm not sure the others match like that).

And also, what I've found is the more you tie these different systems together, the harder it will be for people to fit the (now tighter) correlations. That's another reason I gave up the 81 types, where a 4so MUST be a MelancholyPhlegmatic or SupinePhlegmatic in Inclusion, (while a 6so must be a Supine in Inclusion and a 5so must be a Melancholy in Inclusion). It's tricky enough getting type to fit the basic Inclusion/Control correlation, (though I think I've had a fairly good amount of matchups, though if one doesn't match, you eventually have to just let it go as unexplained).
So as an INTP, I might be 5w4, but I might be 5w6. Or 6w5 or 4w5. Would this change (falsify) your dynamic, or are those simply some of the other 18 subtypes you mentioned?

Like what is the basis for making the function of Ne A 4W3? (4 is often associated with Fi, but then this isn't consistent, as INFJ's also fit into it a lot of the time, and even some INTP's!)

What you're saying sounds like INFP IS 9w1, but then you seem to be saying there's six of every enneagram type and MBTI type (in addition to the tritypes which I thought made it 9 for each, like 5 can be 528, 529, 521, 538, 539, 531, 548, 549, 541, and then can't those last two be reversed as well?), and that's also where I'm seeing something that I'm not sure of what you mean. (What are these six of each type?)
But that's what I mean, in that I had not read your whole theory. But then you're saying it's a "no-brainer", but things like this aren't. It's abstract, where you're comparing them to concrete (sensory) things like rainbows. There's only one set of colors in the visible spectrum, but many different ways to break down personality.

Again, I'm not dismissing what you're saying; Im just saying I'm not able at this time to really understand your whole correlation. Maybe you did explain it above, or ont he page, so I would have to sit down and read them again. (I'm often in a rush to work, or to bed when responding).
Plus, with Ti, you have to internalize a set of principles (i.e. senses of what's "correct" that you figure yourself, rather than just take from others or what objects dictate themselves), so when something else comes along you have not internalized, it may take time to "digest" it, for it to "register". This is why INTP's often struggle learning in conventional classroom settings. And I often find it hard to get a lot of other INTP's to get or at least respond to what I'm saying. They usually have their own logical "frameworks" they have settled on, and don't have time or room to take in something else that differs.

As far as "expressing" different functions (as it "look at the functions I'm/he's/she's, etc. "using"), that doesn't necessarily prove type. We all express all of them, and where type comes in is which ego states are involved in a particular situation. An INTP in his natural "herioc" ego state will express Ti. In the "supporting" (aux.) state, Ne. In a more inferior state, Fe. In a "obstruction-removing" or "hero-backing" state, Te. Otherwise, the products of the different functions will be present in all the data we are relaying. (So it doesn't mean the type has an ambidextrous preference. If ambidextrousness is true, what it changes are what perspectives the ego states align with).

So I think your ideas are interesting, and may have something to it, but just needing to understand it fully.
 

Seymour

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION]

I found the "Supine" temperament (despite not loving the term) to be a much better fit for me than other temperaments... so I'm thankful that you pointed out that addition.

I tend to rank fairly low on Big Five neuroticism, except for areas having to do with social anxiety (which tend to be my areas of biggest challenge). I think that fits reasonably well with your theorizing about the Supine temperament.
 

KitchenFly

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[MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION]

Tri Type 5w4

There are six subtypes in the feeling triad and six subtypes in the relating triad 6+6=12 5w4 can have 36 combinations and the 5w4 comes in six instinctual variant three part orders.The 5w4 is one of six subtypes in the thinking triad one of three triads.

One example 5w4,2w3,8w7. The other 11 you can work out.

5w4 Sx/Sp/So can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.
5w4 Sx/So/Sp can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.
5w4 Sp/Sx/So can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.
5w4 Sp/So/Sx can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.
5w4 So/Sp/Sx can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.
5w4 So/Sx/Sp can be one of 12 tri-type orders for the 5w4.

5w4 2w1 8w7
5w4 2w1 8w9
5w4 2w1 9w8
5w4 2w1 9w1
5w4 2w1 1w9
5w4 2w1 1w2

5w4 2w3 8w7
5w4 2w3 8w9
5w4 2w3 9w8
5w4 2w3 9w1
5w4 2w3 1w9
5w4 2w3 1w2

5w4 3w2 8w7
5w4 3w2 8w9
5w4 3w2 9w8
5w4 3w2 9w1
5w4 3w2 1w9
5w4 3w2 1w2

5w4 3w4 8w7
5w4 3w4 8w9
5w4 3w4 9w8
5w4 3w4 9w1
5w4 3w4 1w9
5w4 3w4 1w2

5w4 4w3 8w7
5w4 4w3 8w9
5w4 4w3 9w8
5w4 4w3 9w1
5w4 4w3 1w9
5w4 4w3 1w2

5w4 4w5 8w7
5w4 4w5 8w9
5w4 4w5 9w8
5w4 4w5 9w1
5w4 4w5 1w9
5w4 4w5 1w2

I could add more accuracy and go though the list and order it with the six relating triad components in the second place example:
5w4 4w5 1w2 and 5w4 1w2 4w5 and go though the hole list in fact I will.

5w4 8w7 2w1
5w4 8w9 2w1
5w4 9w8 2w1
5w4 9w1 2w1
5w4 1w9 2w1
5w4 1w2 2w1

5w4 8w7 2w3
5w4 8w9 2w3
5w4 9w8 2w3
5w4 9w1 2w3
5w4 1w9 2w3
5w4 1w2 2w3

5w4 8w7 3w2
5w4 8w9 3w2
5w4 9w8 3w2
5w4 9w1 3w2
5w4 1w9 3w2
5w4 1w2 3w2

5w4 8w7 3w4
5w4 8w9 3w4
5w4 9w8 3w4
5w4 9w1 3w4
5w4 1w9 3w4
5w4 1w2 3w4

5w4 8w7 4w3
5w4 8w9 4w3
5w4 9w8 4w3
5w4 9w1 4w3
5w4 1w9 4w3
5w4 1w2 4w3

5w4 8w7 4w5
5w4 8w9 4w5
5w4 9w8 4w5
5w4 9w1 4w5
5w4 1w9 4w5
5w4 1w2 4w5


36 tri-type orders for the 5w4, six posable inputs from each of two triads felling triad and relating triad. I am not going to list them all but twelve in all one from feeling triad and Ne from the relating triad with the 5w4 from the thinking triad. That should be simple enough to follow.

The 5w4 is one of 18 Sub-Types add the instinctual stackers and the sum adds up to 324.

That is the basic starting point. Add the tri types combinations and the sum is 11,664 with all eighteen enneagram Sub-Types in mind with stacks and tri types included. That is if I have done my sums correctly.

It is to difficult to explain the tri-loop theory, if you can not intuitively see it in the three examples, I am not going to go to all the trouble of spelling out for you.

For the INTP's Fe, once integrated by middle age, is not an inferior function, it is only if not integrated. Some will have integrated it and some will have not. When someone reacts even if they have generally integrated the Fe it may in anger or frustration be expressed as the inferred inferior function while spitting the dummy.

I am a INFP and when I spit the dummy it often comes out in Te inferior function, but when I am balanced the fourth function flows well and Te is working maturely.

I will give you a simple task.

Try to catch your self in the act when you have natural conversations. From both wings if you are a 5w4 INTP see if you can see the two sides of the seesaw you as the observer will witness the to parts on either side of the apex (the observer) are Ne and Fi , so the construct of your conversation will possess this dynamic, Ne self as witness hearing your self talking and Fi, Ne-Fi. And there are two other players in the game, your game of creating a image a personality via articulation expressing you thought views and conveying your understandings and biases. Ti and Se, and also Fe and Fe.

It was easier to think about this with a friend 5w4 INTP So/Sx/Sp in mind. You are Sp/Sx/So so how you express via Sp first Fe will be uniquely slightly different to the other instinctual stack types and tri types. But it will be extroverted values expressed subjectively. The emotions maybe mature and detached orientated or immaturely overcompensatingly exaggerated in some situations when engaged in some uncomfortable topics with a type that is different like has a different leading instinct and values and views on things or matters or a topic being discussed or argued.

With over eleven thousand combinations I get it that people have difficulty finding the base pattern, so I make it ok. But Tri-loop and my correlations are spot on correct. The Tri-loop theory I ab it needs testing I can not say it is 100% correct that is a guess because I need to truly test that all stack types for each subtype really do hold the same pattern but I thing that they do at this point.

For the 5w4 INTP as I describe. If you are a Sp/Sx/So INTP 5w4 then,..

Fe and Fe will be the convincing and persuading edge to your communicating stile enthuses value held.

Ti and Se will be more the pointy end of persuading.

Ne and Fi will be more your personal preferences expressed and conveyed in language. With emotional style influenced by the expression input of your instinctual stack, it was Sp/Sx?

My assertions of how you utilise the three loops (Tape Loop trance actions) functions. May not be exactly as I depicted but you should see a similar action that you will find your own words for but I would assert that the flavour is basically as I suggest.

In my opinion the temperaments are more of a fluid action some types will have common fixes in general if they hover at the lower levels but most normal people who are reasonably healthy will flux and show different temperament as a response or reaction to life events. I think.

I have only addressed the component Tri-loops, obviously other dynamics are happening but you will catch those three actions once you get a feel for the idea and the concept of Tri-loops will most likely be visible within your know time narrative as you discuss things and interact with people.

If there is a fifth letter in the MBTI to be addressed then could it pertain to the two missing energies not addressed in the MBTI model the two energies I refer to as ambidextrous S&N and ambidextrous F&T ?
 

Eric B

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OK, so the six "subtypes" are simply the wings of each triad type (So 5w4 + 2w3, 2w1, 3w2, 3w4, 4w3 and 4w5, [Edit, I see while I was writing this whole post out, that you added a list breaking these all down] and then repeat for the "relating" aka "gut" triad). And you listed the instinctual variant combinations.

I just needed to make sure what was what, because there are so many different numbers and variables involved, it's easy to be confused. (Like there are two instances of "six" variations, both wings and instinct stacks. Then, I see "subtypes", which I think could mean any sort of variation, and I didn't make the connection to, specifically, "wings"). I also had to learn, in presenting my ideas (especially involving the FIRO/APS, which hardly anyone had even heard of), that people won't understand something new as quickly as you think they should. We take for granted what we know, and how it all works out and the proper operational terminology, but others need more clarity.

I'd have to think about your example. It seems a lot of us INTP's do often get confused with NFP, struggling with sorting out Ti vs Fi. I attribute this to two things.
One is confusion between functional definitions, where especially for Fi, too much different behavior is considered a differentiated functional "use". Like ANY sort fof "liking" or "valuing" or "knowing what's important" (this is especially true for the cognitive function test people take).
And then connected that, that we do process all the products of all the functions in probably every mental act. There's always something tangible (S) that we take in immediately from the environment (e) and filter through an internal storehouse (i). Always some intangible pattern (N) we see in objects (e) or derive from within (i). Always something deeemed true or correct (T), based on the object itself (e) or our own analysis (i), and usually always some good or bad affect on our souls (F), that we can derive from others (e) or internally (i). So on that last one, "valuing", "liking", etc. can be considered "Fi products", but it's still not necessarily "using Fi", in a type specific way.
Then, the ego-states are what will also bring the lesser functions to consciousness. So if ego is fearing destruction (often imagined or greatly overexaggerated) in a situation, then Fi will come up, where I'll judge something as "bad", and this will usually derail my normal "true/false" judgment in some way.
There are also other theories, such as brain lateral alternative, where a Ti[Ne] ego will turn to FiSe (though this is said to get replaced with the tertiary when we mature).

So I'm just saying that those are also possible explanations of the different functions coming up. I'm not saying yours is wrong, but it will be hard to determine. Or, maybe it is the same thing I'm saying, but "from another angle", as we put it (again, Fi is the "right brain alternative" to Ti, so maybe there is something to this). If so, that would be interesting. I'm still not quite getting why 4 is necessarily Ne, but then maybe that's necessitated by it being the wing of an INTP 5?
 

KitchenFly

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I am not exactly sore why Ne for four but as Russ Hudson said once on a you tube video "if you don't feel melancholy then you better pick another type" he said that to a person who thought they were a Type:4 but everyone including his wife though he was not a four, and the person who thought of him self as a four said that he just doesn't feel melancholy.

Ne must have something to do with feeling defect, that there is something wrong with self. An interesting thing I find with the 4w5 is that the w5 is ambidextrous F&T and the point of integration/neurosis when that get neurotic, is ambidextrous S&N. I think the two parts have much to do with calibrating reality between the 1D spiritual and the 3 or 4D practical if you get what I mean. In a interreflectivebsubjectiveb2D kinda way.

The 4w3 has the w3 that has if I recollect correctly the the ambidextrous F&T as its subsidiary wing and in its point of stress 2w3 the w3 is 3w4 and the three with four has the ambidextrous S&N if I recall correctly. The 4w3 experiences melancholy in a subjectivelymidge rent manner related more towards image and honest and the 4w5 seems to me to be more about not being perfect or able to as desired like others in minds eye.

I maybe incorrect about the way the two subtypes experience melancholy but that my kinda take on what I see.

I think your take on the INTP's inner mind and its cognition is spot on correct so that means you are correct I am correct all the other things like INTP being all so like NPIT and NTIP and so on are to depending on the INTP. there are so many things that happen. The Fi that a INTP could be expressed from 2w3 if the INTP expresses that energy maybe because it is mirrored because the INTP has 2w3 parent or sibling are because it is in the 2w3 is within the INTP's Tritype. Or maybe it is a cool expression a peer group thing at the time learnt or taken on to culturally fit in.

Personality is complex.

I started out learning the MBTI by teaching my self from books like Please Understand Me and my first step was to ask my self what is I and what is E and what is S and N and T and F and j & P what is it in me. And what is it in others what really is I and E and so on.

Because they are energies, states of mind focus. That's the basics and that is why it was so easy to see the MBTI within each of the eighteen subtypes, because I learnt the six energies and the energy of J and P the eight energies.

That was the first step what truly is I experientially what is E within me and when I look at or receptivity experience the energy of another what what is I or E or S or N or T or F or P or J within the other.

The basics

The basics first, and then I read the typologies the descriptions of the sixteen types.

And learnt the SP SJ NF NT energies. And so on. It was a no brainer to see the one two one match ups.

My Trifix is 936 so maybe it was easy for me.

I am a INFP 9w1 Sx/Sp/So , 9w8 5w6 4w5 , 1221 D type , 936 396 963 and sometimes 369 at my best,and I have experienced 639, and after thinking about it I have also experienced 693. When I was in primary school I was able to flux between all those six Trifix energies. I was able to do some amazing things with my mind.

And my IQ is or was tested and recorded as being 138.


Anyway that enough of my chatter. Have a good weekend [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION]
 

Eric B

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Joined
Mar 29, 2008
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MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I still don't see Ne as being so "melancholy" (whether that's supposed to tbe the actual classic temperament, or the generic term for sadness). Ne is usually more like the opposite, with its "openness" to ideas. Any type that prefers it is "informative" (rather then "directive"), and when dominant, (ENP), it's part of the "Get Things Going" Interaction style (which is actually the classic "Sanguine").
Ne, in a more negative form, might lead to anxiety, when wondering about all the possible bad things that can happen. But that's not all the time, for those who prefer it.

You actually have 72 5w4 orders there now (head-heart-gut and head-gut-heart). You could repeat that whole list for the other head subtypes, so you have 6×72=432. Then, do this all over again with all the other possible tritype positions (heart-head-gut, heart-gut-head, gut-heart-head, gut-head-heart). So 3×432=1296. Then, the six possible instinctual variants, 1296×6=7776. I need another ×1.5 to get to 11664, so I must be missing something.
To start from the 18 subtypes, for each, there's 72 possible tritype combinations (1296), and then it's the same thing; I need to multiply it by 9 instead of just the 6 variants.

If you're 9w1 and the trifix is 936, then why in the tritype with wings does it change to 9w8 5w6 4w5? The wings changes the trifix? Maybe you explained it somewhere, but this is a lot of stuff.
I take it, "D type" is from DISC, right? (I would think a D would be more like an 8 or something).
What's 1221?
 
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KitchenFly

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1221 D type is the hole brain thinking model.

What is Whole Brain Thinking?

443afc255e93357188f1e9cc5ea06dae.jpg


So looking image above for the type:4 the three Tri-loops function correlate one loop function with the 4-8 loop and one function with the 6-3 and one function to the 6-9 function.

The subtype four with five two wings (3w4 Ti - F&T 5w6) linked to Points: 4 - 8 in a loop action.

Note subsidiary wings for 4w5 link with the secondary wings for the Type Six.

So it's like a form subsidiary wings for the secondary types but not exclusive to the 12 secondary types.

The other two loops are linked to the other four parts to the remaining two parts of the Tri-loop components. See if you can sense the correlation and post your answer.

(___ __ - __ ___) linked to Points: 6 - 3 in a loop action.

(___ __ - __ ___) linked to Points: 6 - 9 in a loop action.


The type:4 is a part of the thinking triad and well if you use your own 1221 D, I'll help you by mirroring the perspective for you to gain a view.

Ok real simple ,. Think, Tri-loop,. And look at the image.

I don't really won't to talk in a language of definite's because you have given me a challenge and I had to focus on the four types from the perspective that core energy and work out were its structure grounded within the enneagram with function letters in mind and I simply see N as the sole individual and Ne (1) and Si (4) in part tell the story. But the story over laps other energies in order to tell that story and the hole story comes from is hosted by the living enneagram.

So I suggest to you that the Tri-loops and the structure from the Primary types subsidiary wings model has something to do with the working dynamics of the secondary types primary instinctive communications model.

There are six primary types 3w2,3w4,6w5,6w7,9w8,9w1.
The others 1w9,1w2,2w1,2w3,4w3,4w5,5w4,5w6,7w6,7w8,8w7,8w9 and all secondary types.

Both rely on each other, and it seems to me at this stage that the secondary types rely on the primary type structural model and Tri-loop over lapses the primary type model.

dd807f9b6a069e00c2783d5b36714f86.jpg


Note the MBTI preference stacking's for the ESTP and ESFJ my two type eights (8w7 and 8w9), with the Ni and Ne and Si in mind you may get a sense of the mechanical at work.

Remember all processes begin and end at point nine and the and energy flowers in two directions around the circle of the enneagram receiving and expressing information.

yes 72

094d64f147e99c29d0f154f543c0757e.jpg

Just some ideas while thinking about hidden interconnecting structures.

The two type:4's shear N and Ni and Si an interesting pattern for all types to draw upon and shear as a dynamical function.

Perhaps there are five other such like functions that are relevant perhaps not. But my thought feeling underlying the sense of this dynamic is as if it is a fraction within a fractal. The 1D underlying the 4D of the 2D sub conches Action. A three dimensional scope of a 1D-4D paradigm, we have a thought (3D in minds eye) and we act upon the thought (1D-2D-4D).

Three Loops acting at two levels. What matches up with what? And How dose each dimensional component match for all eighteen Sub-Types?

Big Ideas. To big for me to completely answer.

But my guess is the six Tri Fix's associated with the inner triangle likes to and with (1D-2D-4D) and the active of making three law of three happen within is or maybe connected to the (3D in minds eye) working in cinque with the six four letter function order of the Primary types MBTI setting. This manifests I think intuitions of a spiritual order.

 
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KitchenFly

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Feb 5, 2015
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I redid the mbti test on 16personalities and just realised that unlike the other personality tests where they just tell you what four letters you are, they give you 5 letters, the last letter being either A (assertive) or T (turbulent). So how come the fifth letter never comes up anywhere else? Even on 16personalities, they may give you the 5-letter result (for example I got INFP-T) but when you get redirected to the type description it would just have the first four letters.

Anyway, according to 16personalities, these are the definitions of Assertive and Turbulent personalities:

Assertive (-A) individuals are self-assured, even-tempered and resistant to stress. They refuse to worry too much and do not push themselves too hard when it comes to achieving goals.
Turbulent (-T) individuals are self-conscious and sensitive to stress. They are likely to experience a wide range of emotions and to be success-driven, perfectionistic and eager to improve.


So my question here is, how come we only use the first four letters when identifying our personalities using MBTI? Judging from the definitions above, an assertive individual is extremely different from a turbulent person. For example, wouldn't an INFP-A be very different from an INFP-T? So why is it that usually only the first four letters are used?

And also, aren't there certain mbti types that are more success-driven, or more even-tempered than others? (Whenever I hang around my ESFJ or ESTJ friends it's obvious that they are way more success-driven and more sensitive to stress than me. I've also realised that perceivers are less likely to push themselves when it comes to achieving goals.)

Can anyone explain it to me please thanks! :laugh:

Well [MENTION=3521]Eric B[/MENTION]

I think your Assertive -A and Turbulent -B are related in the 4w3 and the 4w5 with points 8&7.

I thought you would have picked the bones of it in my pic.

094d64f147e99c29d0f154f543c0757e.jpg




There is chaos in order and order in chaos

I suppose you never bothered to read and take my post seriously Eric B

If that is to hard to interpret at the visceral level then it may go like this:

((4) 8&7&9&1)
((5) 9&8&1&2)
((6) 1&9&8&3)
((7) 2&1&3&4)
((8) 3&2&4&5)
((9) 4&3&5&6)
((1) 5&4&6&7)
((2) 6&5&7&8)
((3) 7&6&8&9)


Don't ask me to explain the patten,work it out your self.

If you don't get to 6 and twelve over all then keep going.


______________ 12
______ 12 _____________12

_ 12 ______________________ 12


__ 12 ____________________ 12

________ 12 ________ 12




Yes isn't it amazing, it tallies to 108.


I suppose now you want my number pattern relating to this diagram.
 
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