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How do you tell sensors from intuitors?

jakopic

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I tend to notice, people who are likely S's will tend to talk about "practical" matters, whether people or things, while N's will talk more about ideas and concepts. Years ago, I would often jump into what were basically S conversations with the whole idea or theory of the things they were discussing (or relative comparisons, alternate things, etc) and then wonder why they weren't interested.

Then, learning about type, I cound see where it was a very useful thing to have had, even if it doesn't have some hard empirical evidence the "sciences" demand (which again, is reflecting a heavy S perspective). It made sense when it showed that there was a dominance of S, in the culture.

I agree with everything you say, and often read your works :blush:. I have noticed when an ESTP type 8 talks to ENFP 7-4, he gets irritated, if he is forced to go to Ne world, especially if its created through Fi. It also seems SP can misplace cause/effect. They like to talk about past event, so they repeat themselves to others, often their wishes or notes from media, and personal events. NP want to talk about the more non-existing, unknown.

I agree with you that there is a dominance of S, especially in the Western society. Maybe that is why Jung said the Indian culture is not for us.
But times have changed and there is a battle in media between progressiveness and tradition. While 100 years back you might even get killed for endorsing similar standards of ethics as multiculturalism tries to enforce. Its like the S-T is switching to N-F, it was noticeable with Obamas election.
 

Smilephantomhive

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I think the main problem is that the definitions of sensing and intuition isn't clearly defined. For the feeling/thinking they summarize it in one sentence, but sore sensing/intuition they just give you a list.

If the definition of intuition is knowing things without knowing where it came from then I'm definitely a sensor.
If intuition is finding the underlying meaning between things then I would be an intuitive.
 

existence

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I think the main problem is that the definitions of sensing and intuition isn't clearly defined. For the feeling/thinking they summarize it in one sentence, but sore sensing/intuition they just give you a list.

If the definition of intuition is knowing things without knowing where it came from then I'm definitely a sensor.
If intuition is finding the underlying meaning between things then I would be an intuitive.

I don't know where you were reading your definitions.

S/N is defined just as well as T/F. S trusts the data coming from their physical senses, treated as seen, N does not.

But here's the official one on both T/F and S/N:

"Information: Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? This is called Sensing (S) or Intuition (N).

Decisions: When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? This is called Thinking (T) or Feeling (F)."


The Myers & Briggs Foundation - MBTI® Basics
 

existence

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I think the main problem is that the definitions of sensing and intuition isn't clearly defined. For the feeling/thinking they summarize it in one sentence, but sore sensing/intuition they just give you a list.

If the definition of intuition is knowing things without knowing where it came from then I'm definitely a sensor.
If intuition is finding the underlying meaning between things then I would be an intuitive.

Depends what you mean by underlying meaning. If it's logical, that is, it can be fully reasoned, this will be Ti. If it's just associations, that will be Ni.

So, which one do you have?
 

Poki

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ok, lets start with the definition of intuition which is very much confused with intuitive and I will get into that later.

Intuition: the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.

This means you hear something, you see something, you read something and understand it immediately without having to process anything. For example, I was watching an infomercial about a table saw that when it senses a human finger it stops immediately. They were still in the explaining phase when my son asked how it worked. I said it was an circuit like they use on touch lamps and upon sensing that it employs a break directly to the saw blade to stop it immediately. Kind like breaks on cars minus so much of the grinding friction since we don't want to ruin the blade. It took no thought, no reasoning. It was an immediate understanding. That's an example of Ni, Ne will on the other hand without reasoning, with out thought come up with just possibilities...like brain storming. They may be way out there or they may be dead on. But it has no prior experience to an internal understanding.

Now lets jump to intuitive...its different then intuition. Intuitive removes the loaded "correct" from intuition. What that means is that an intuitive person that is Ni will be based solely on understanding. In the example above I have an understanding of touch lamps, I also have a degree in electronics, as well as an understanding of how saws work. So with all this understanding I connected the dots immediately without even a thought. Its kinda like pattern recognition across many concepts and pulling them all together. If I had a different understanding of things I would have put together a different way to accomplish the same task immediately. It could have worked better or worse. Ne on the other hand doesn't use as fine tuned pattern recognition and more shallow and brainstorming style. Lots of ideas, while Ni usually puts together a single idea that matches best with what it knows.

S is about sensory info and details. Same type of way as intuitive, but its not really the understanding. Its about the details. For example, my brother loves to paint transformers. When he sees the transformer he can extract the details from his head and paint it accordingly very detail oriented to match his reality. He will add rust stains, scuff marks, etc. I on the other hand have to work off of the concepts and because of this I do a lot of concepts based things like angles, and such that don't have the details of reality. It tends to be a lot more geometric do to my understanding of geometry...Ni. Se is more about shallow details, they come and go quickly kinda like Ne. Most things I build I jump into without complete ideas where as an Si will have more of a complete vision.
 

existence

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Intuition: the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.

This is just the everyday meaning, this isn't the MBTI let alone the jungian concept. The MBTI is as I quoted above: sense data gets interpreted and added extra meaning to it, this by the way happens via associations. The ASSOCIATIONS is what's N is about. It perceives associations that other functions cannot because N associations go further than what rational (T/F) reasoning can provide.

Anyone can understand something immediately if they are well practiced in that area. Such automatism is a basic thing that everyone has. Absolutely not type related.
 

Poki

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This is just the everyday meaning, this isn't the MBTI let alone the jungian concept. The MBTI is as I quoted above: sense data gets interpreted and added extra meaning to it, this by the way happens via associations. The ASSOCIATIONS is what's N is about. It perceives associations that other functions cannot because N associations go further than what rational (T/F) reasoning can provide.

:shrug: That's what I said and explained

N can actually be reasoned by T/F. Its just that N itself doesn't reason it. It has to step into a much deeper understanding which T/F can provide with enough data.
 

existence

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:shrug: That's what I said and explained

No, knowing automatically based on experience is NOT the same as perceiving far flung assocations without reasoning.

You cannot be serious if you meant to say that the two are the same.


N can actually be reasoned by T/F. Its just that N itself doesn't reason it. It has to step into a much deeper understanding which T/F can provide with enough data.

No, N perception cannot be reasoned by T/F. The perception can be utilized by T/F but the perception itself isn't reasoned.
 

Smilephantomhive

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[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] what you said makes a lot of sense. But now it's making me doubt my Si dominance. I really like that explanation though.
 

Poki

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No, knowing automatically based on experience is NOT the same as perceiving far flung assocations without reasoning.

You cannot be serious if you meant to say that the two are the same.




No, N perception cannot be reasoned by T/F. The perception can be utilized by T/F but the perception itself isn't reasoned.

You do realize I am Ti dom which means I actually have the understanding of why and how...the reasons. A dom Ni doesn't care so from others perception that doesn't know them won't know how and it's perceived as intuitive by everyone. It's why dom Ni talk about subconscious so much. Subconscious peiced it together.

It's actually duse to overlap of knowledge. Do you understand how complicated pattern recognition can be to understand.
 

Poki

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[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] what you said makes a lot of sense. But now it's making me doubt my Si dominance. I really like that explanation though.

Si people usually have a very definitive vision of reality. Ni usually has a very definitive pattern of how things are. Just listen to dom Si and Ni people.

This is in contrast with Ti because we have a framework which is not a vision, but an understanding. It's the main reason I TJ and I T P are very much misdiagnosed. It's hard to explain. I am S, but my vision is more N both of those combine to produce my framework I build. It's a framework of pattern matching concepts and such. An INTP is more N and their vision is more S. Both combine to build the Ti framework. We both come across as very perceptive people.

On the other hand Si and Ni utilize Te and Fi in support of their vision. That's why alot of IJs tend to bounce between logic and feelings to build its vision. This is very obvious in dealing with IJs. They come across as more difinitive...aka judger because their 2 main support functions are judging functions. With a IP our 2 main support functions are perception. So while our main function is a judgement function we come across very perceptive. And while an IJ may be a perceptive type they come across as more judging.
 

Poki

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No, knowing automatically based on experience is NOT the same as perceiving far flung assocations without reasoning.

You cannot be serious if you meant to say that the two are the same.




No, N perception cannot be reasoned by T/F. The perception can be utilized by T/F but the perception itself isn't reasoned.

Let's play logic as you seem to like. Everything that is true can be reasoned with enough understanding and depth of topic. N is true as it exists, since what exists is true for what it is, N has to be able to be reasoned with enough understanding.

Now let me explain that which exists is true. I am not referring to perceptive truth as in right or wrong. I am referring to its pure existence that makes it so...that pretty existence makes it true an therfore there is a reason that with enough knowledge and understanding can be found.
 

existence

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You do realize I am Ti dom which means I actually have the understanding of why and how...the reasons. A dom Ni doesn't care so from others perception that doesn't know them won't know how and it's perceived as intuitive by everyone. It's why dom Ni talk about subconscious so much. Subconscious peiced it together.

It's actually duse to overlap of knowledge. Do you understand how complicated pattern recognition can be to understand.

This you wrote here does not add anything to my statement.

You earlier said you only care about the "how", no?
 

existence

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Si people usually have a very definitive vision of reality. Ni usually has a very definitive pattern of how things are. Just listen to dom Si and Ni people.

This is in contrast with Ti because we have a framework which is not a vision, but an understanding. It's the main reason I TJ and I T P are very much misdiagnosed. It's hard to explain. I am S, but my vision is more N both of those combine to produce my framework I build. It's a framework of pattern matching concepts and such. An INTP is more N and their vision is more S. Both combine to build the Ti framework. We both come across as very perceptive people.

Yes, Ti is about an understanding, but "understanding" is a rather generic word.


On the other hand Si and Ni utilize Te and Fi in support of their vision. That's why alot of IJs tend to bounce between logic and feelings to build its vision. This is very obvious in dealing with IJs. They come across as more difinitive...aka judger because their 2 main support functions are judging functions. With a IP our 2 main support functions are perception. So while our main function is a judgement function we come across very perceptive. And while an IJ may be a perceptive type they come across as more judging.

Actually, the J/P issue is much more complex than that. It depends on more factors beyond the ones you listed.

Any Ji-dom can be J or P. Any Pi-dom can be J or P. Due to J/P being determined by other things as well, though the dominant function is the largest factor of all of the factors that are directly related to the cognitive functions, with the second largest factor being the auxiliary, also other functions may affect it, but there are factors beyond cognitive functions as well that affect the expression of J/P.
 

Poki

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Yes, Ti is about an understanding, but "understanding" is a rather generic word.




Actually, the J/P issue is much more complex than that. It depends on more factors beyond the ones you listed.

Any Ji-dom can be J or P. Any Pi-dom can be J or P. Due to J/P being determined by other things as well, though the dominant function is the largest factor of all of the factors that are directly related to the cognitive functions, with the second largest factor being the auxiliary, also other functions may affect it, but there are factors beyond cognitive functions as well that affect the expression of J/P.

From myersbrisgs.org

This fourth preference pair describes how you like to live your outer life--what are the behaviors others tend to see? Do you prefer a more structured and decided lifestyle (Judging) or a more flexible and adaptable lifestyle (Perceiving)? This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world.


Everyone extraverts some of the time. This pair describes whether you extravert (act in the outer world) when you are making decisions or when you are taking in information.


Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world.


Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn't matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world.


Everyone takes in information some of the time. Everyone makes decisions some of the time. However, when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for Judging because they tend to like things decided. People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information.


Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J).


Don't confuse Judging and Perceiving with a person's level of organization. Either preference can be organized.


Take a minute to ask yourself which of the following descriptions seems more natural, effortless, and comfortable for you?

Judging (J)

I use my decision-making (Judging) preference (whether it is Thinking or Feeling) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a planned or orderly way of life, like to have things settled and organized, feel more comfortable when decisions are made, and like to bring life under control as much as possible.


Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, I may, inside, feel flexible and open to new information (which I am).


Do not confuse Judging with judgmental, in its negative sense about people and events. They are not related.


The following statements generally apply to me:
• I like to have things decided.
•I appear to be task oriented.
• I like to make lists of things to do.
• I like to get my work done before playing.
• I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline.
•Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information.

Perceiving (P)

I use my perceiving function (whether it is Sensing or Intuition) in my outer life. To others, I seem to prefer a flexible and spontaneous way of life, and I like to understand and adapt to the world rather than organize it. Others see me staying open to new experiences and information.


Since this pair only describes what I prefer in the outer world, inside I may feel very planful or decisive (which I am).


Remember, in type language perceiving means "preferring to take in information." It does not mean being "perceptive" in the sense of having quick and accurate perceptions about people and events.


The following statements generally apply to me:
• I like to stay open to respond to whatever happens.
•I appear to be loose and casual. I like to keep plans to a minimum.
•I like to approach work as play or mix work and play.
•I work in bursts of energy.
• I am stimulated by an approaching deadline.
• Sometimes I stay open to new information so long I miss making decisions when they are needed.

Maybe this explains the IJ vs IP thing I was trying to explain earlier in a better manner then just my perception of what I see between the types.
 

highlander

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I tend to notice, people who are likely S's will tend to talk about "practical" matters, whether people or things, while N's will talk more about ideas and concepts. Years ago, I would often jump into what were basically S conversations with the whole idea or theory of the things they were discussing (or relative comparisons, alternate things, etc) and then wonder why they weren't interested.

If you want to look at things in simple terms, that is about as good of an explanation as anything. I think that as time evolves, the tests will get better and that ultimately, tests like the one I just launched will provide more accurate results than a self assessment. Why? The reason is this. I believe listening to what a person says gives the best clues as to what their thought processes are. There are all kinds of problems with the typical tests. A person can answer the way they think they should answer. Many of the tests are poor quality. This is especially true for Enneagram tests.

But here's the official one on both T/F and S/N:

"Information: Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? This is called Sensing (S) or Intuition (N).

Decisions: When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? This is called Thinking (T) or Feeling (F)."


The Myers & Briggs Foundation - MBTI® Basics

Certainly with respect to the Ni dom types, it is all about meaning - understanding the essential thing or things about a particular situation. Why did something happen. What are the implications? What does it tell you about what will happen in the future? What are the key insights? Things like that. Si types do not have such of an interest in this. They are more focused on the concrete - specifically what has actually happened before. As a person focused on the future, I would say they use this "what has happened before" to help them predict what is going to happen in the future and they can be exceptionally good at that but I'm not so sure how focused they are on what is going to happen in the future to begin with.
 

existence

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Let's play logic as you seem to like. Everything that is true can be reasoned with enough understanding and depth of topic. N is true as it exists, since what exists is true for what it is, N has to be able to be reasoned with enough understanding.

Now let me explain that which exists is true. I am not referring to perceptive truth as in right or wrong. I am referring to its pure existence that makes it so...that pretty existence makes it true an therfore there is a reason that with enough knowledge and understanding can be found.

"Perceptive truth as in right or wrong", you meant judging there.

Sure, existence of something is not to be questioned.
 

existence

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From myersbrisgs.org

Maybe this explains the IJ vs IP thing I was trying to explain earlier in a better manner then just my perception of what I see between the types.

The problem with this definition "Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J)"

...it makes the assumption that the internal J/P cannot be detected outwardly. Wrong. Say, a Fi-dom decides that X is morally wrong then they won't do X. Hence, it's already manifested outwardly. Or a Ti-dom has an understanding of how something works and they will manipulate it based on that. Again, manifested outwardly.
 

Poki

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"Perceptive truth as in right or wrong", you meant judging there.

Sure, existence of something is not to be questioned.

I meant perception as in the people who like to argue that reality is nothing more then perception. I hate those arguments, its like really...lets go so far off into lala land where nothing is as its perceived and at that point we can argue anything with some of the wall stuff because its all just perception right and nothing is real. I had to try and stop that before it started from someone who read what I wrote. Not necessarily you.
 

Poki

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The problem with this definition "Sometimes people feel they have both. That is true. The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J)"

...it makes the assumption that the internal J/P cannot be detected outwardly. Wrong. Say, a Fi-dom decides that X is morally wrong then they won't do X. Hence, it's already manifested outwardly. Or a Ti-dom has an understanding of how something works and they will manipulate it based on that. Again, manifested outwardly.

Please tell me what exactly about that says it cannot be detected? I don't see that assumption anywhere in that definition.
 
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