[MBTI General] Guilt Tripping: Which MBTI types do it the most?

[EJCC]

Would you care to explore this? It sounds just like my dad. He guilt trips in obvious intent to create change and seems obvious to creating suffering in others.

He made my 3 year old daughter run to her room crying with his guilt tripping and he expressed no emotion. He also didn't have any emotion when he told my daughter that it makes him sad when she does what she wants rather than rather than what he wanted.

Do you care about the hurting others when you guilt trip? Or is this not a factor? Do you care after the fact? Or, as long as change occurred, it is OK?

That's not a factor at all, no. The thing about Te is that it focuses on changing the things in its external environment. Impersonal objects, concepts, trends. Personal needs and concerns are handled on this scale, from my experience, from 1 to 4:

1 - Personal needs ignored altogether
2 - 10 minutes to several days later: "Oh shit, there were feelings involved there. Whoops."
3 - Personal needs realized in the moment, and then handled awkwardly
4 - Personal needs anticipated and then handled professionally

You're not the first NFJ to assume that ESTJs not only notice that sort of emotional fallout, but plan it in a malicious way. Since I joined the forum I've had to talk down a lot of NFJs -- especially INFJs -- who assumed that, because they can't imagine what it must feel like for people to not have all that Fe information coming at them from all sides, which as I understand it is the main curse of being an INFJ. It's like sensory overload for you folks, but we ESTJs have to be trained to notice it.

The only way I've learned to handle that kind of personal fallout -- and I'd like to think I usually land between 3 and 4 on the above scale -- is by treating those needs like I would treat any other impersonal factor in a situation. Worst case scenario I come across as very condescending, like I'm "handling" people in sensitive moments. But even that is better than ignoring the sensitive moments altogether.

I was actually thinking, that if we were in a proffessional situation or academic you might be able to, because perfectionist do that to me, like i see them doing all this stuff and getting like 90s on everything and 100s and organizing the pens by color and ink level, and some of them (maybe not you) tend to call me lazy and blah blah blah because mostly i am, but also how do you know how much ink level is in the pen? and i don't work with people watching, so i work quietly in private alone. and the pens can organize themselves

This is almost the exact sort of situation that I was thinking of, when I said that I can accidentally guilt trip people. All I need to do is be a perfectionist in their presence, and any hint of a link between my habits and those of the other person will make them think that I'm disparagingly contrasting them with me.

 

[miss fortune]

Would you care to explore this? It sounds just like my dad. He guilt trips in obvious intent to create change and seems obvious to creating suffering in others.

He made my 3 year old daughter run to her room crying with his guilt tripping and he expressed no emotion. He also didn't have any emotion when he told my daughter that it makes him sad when she does what she wants rather than rather than what he wanted.

Do you care about the hurting others when you guilt trip? Or is this not a factor? Do you care after the fact? Or, as long as change occurred, it is OK?

wow... did you mean to come across as a mix of condescending and accusing there or was it accidental?

seriously... it's tones like that that make me feel angry and a bit guilty, which makes me feel even more angry because there are some things I shouldn't HAVE to feel guilty about

please remember that just because somebody is the same type as someone that you know in real life or happens to use the same functions does NOT mean that they have the same intents and CERTAINLY does not mean that they are the same person and that you need to take your frustrations out on them.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

That's not a factor at all, no. The thing about Te is that it focuses on changing the things in its external environment. Impersonal objects, concepts, trends. Personal needs and concerns are handled on this scale, from my experience, from 1 to 4:

1 - Personal needs ignored altogether
2 - 10 minutes to several days later: "Oh shit, there were feelings involved there. Whoops."
3 - Personal needs realized in the moment, and then handled awkwardly
4 - Personal needs anticipated and then handled professionally

You're not the first NFJ to assume that ESTJs not only notice that sort of emotional fallout, but plan it in a malicious way. Since I joined the forum I've had to talk down a lot of NFJs -- especially INFJs -- who assumed that, because they can't imagine what it must feel like for people to not have all that Fe information coming at them from all sides, which as I understand it is the main curse of being an INFJ. It's like sensory overload for you folks, but we ESTJs have to be trained to notice it.

The only way I've learned to handle that kind of personal fallout -- and I'd like to think I usually land between 3 and 4 on the above scale -- is by treating those needs like I would treat any other impersonal factor in a situation. Worst case scenario I come across as very condescending, like I'm "handling" people in sensitive moments. But even that is better than ignoring the sensitive moments altogether.

Thanks. That is my dad, but he seems at level 1 or 2, at best. His ESTJ was even more so.....

As I said earlier, his guilt trips come with zero emotion inside or out, and he seems to feel zero emotion even after making a 3 year old cry...... and as such, the statement itself "it makes me feel sad when....." is a complete lie, because he really isn't feeling sad at all....he just wants a change....

Thanks again for explaining.....

 

[prplchknz]

That's not a factor at all, no. The thing about Te is that it focuses on changing the things in its external environment. Impersonal objects, concepts, trends. Personal needs and concerns are handled on this scale, from my experience, from 1 to 4:

1 - Personal needs ignored altogether
2 - 10 minutes to several days later: "Oh shit, there were feelings involved there. Whoops."
3 - Personal needs realized in the moment, and then handled awkwardly
4 - Personal needs anticipated and then handled professionally

You're not the first NFJ to assume that ESTJs not only notice that sort of emotional fallout, but plan it in a malicious way. Since I joined the forum I've had to talk down a lot of NFJs -- especially INFJs -- who assumed that, because they can't imagine what it must feel like for people to not have all that Fe information coming at them from all sides, which as I understand it is the main curse of being an INFJ. It's like sensory overload for you folks, but we ESTJs have to be trained to notice it.

The only way I've learned to handle that kind of personal fallout -- and I'd like to think I usually land between 3 and 4 on the above scale -- is by treating those needs like I would treat any other impersonal factor in a situation. Worst case scenario I come across as very condescending, like I'm "handling" people in sensitive moments. But even that is better than ignoring the sensitive moments altogether.


This is almost the exact sort of situation that I was thinking of, when I said that I can accidentally guilt trip people. All I need to do is be a perfectionist in their presence, and any hint of a link between my habits and those of the other person will make them think that I'm disparagingly contrasting them with me.

to be fair i've known a ton of perfectionist i sort of know how they work i've been observing human interact since i could sit up and stare. there's a lot that doesn't make sense on individual level, but i'm good at archtypes in a sense. based on past behaviors

 

[SearchingforPeace]

wow... did you mean to come across as a mix of condescending and accusing there or was it accidental?

No. I meant to come across as sensitive that some people might not want to discuss such a topic and I tried to treat it with the same sensitivity. I feel bad you read accusing and condescending into that. The opposite was my intention.

seriously... it's tones like that that make me feel angry and a bit guilty, which makes me feel even more angry because there are some things I shouldn't HAVE to feel guilty about

please remember that just because somebody is the same type as someone that you know in real life or happens to use the same functions does NOT mean that they have the same intents and CERTAINLY does not mean that they are the same person and that you need to take your frustrations out on them.

Typism warning noted.

 

[EJCC]

wow... did you mean to come across as a mix of condescending and accusing there or was it accidental?

seriously... it's tones like that that make me feel angry and a bit guilty, which makes me feel even more angry because there are some things I shouldn't HAVE to feel guilty about

please remember that just because somebody is the same type as someone that you know in real life or happens to use the same functions does NOT mean that they have the same intents and CERTAINLY does not mean that they are the same person and that you need to take your frustrations out on them.

Ha! This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. I kind of noticed the tone? But not entirely? And then decided to mostly ignore the tone in my reply, and stick with the facts as much as possible. I was actually kind of stunned by your post, initially, and then realized that it was justified.

As I said earlier, his guilt trips come with zero emotion inside or out, and he seems to feel zero emotion even after making a 3 year old cry...... and as such, the statement itself "it makes me feel sad when....." is a complete lie, because he really isn't feeling sad at all....he just wants a change....

I seriously doubt that's true.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I seriously doubt that's true.

Doubt that he made a three year old cry or the guilt tripping or doubt he didn't care?

The man is 80 years old and that is how he operates and always has. No emotion, manipulative, saying shit like "it makes me sad..." when he isn't sad and moves to the next task obvious of the fallout, as if he did nothing.

 

[EJCC]

Doubt that he made a three year old cry or the guilt tripping or doubt he didn't care?

The man is 80 years old and that is how he operates and always has. No emotion, manipulative, saying shit like "it makes me sad..." when he isn't sad and moves to the next task obvious of the fallout, as if he did nothing.

Mostly doubting that he was lying about being sad, but also that he wouldn't feel anything at all after making a little kid cry. But if everything you're saying about him is true, then type-related concerns are like 5% of his problems. In fact, typology is probably useless to you, when it comes to figuring him out, if he's that messed up.

 

[miss fortune]

No. I meant to come across as sensitive that some people might not want to discuss such a topic and I tried to treat it with the same sensitivity. I feel bad you read accusing and condescending into that. The opposite was my intention.

it seems as though your anger at him came across in your manner of questioning and drawing a comparison with EJCC, whether intended or otherwise

Ha! This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. I kind of noticed the tone? But not entirely? And then decided to mostly ignore the tone in my reply, and stick with the facts as much as possible. I was actually kind of stunned by your post, initially, and then realized that it was justified.

I was actually surprised at how matter of fact your reply was, and then it occurred to me that everyone isn't as grumpy as I am

anyone wanna guess how I unintentionally guilt trip people?

 

[EJCC]

I was actually surprised at how matter of fact your reply was, and then it occurred to me that everyone isn't as grumpy as I am

Oh it's not that -- I'm pretty grumpy. It's more that I'm so incredibly used to that approach, on the forum, when it comes to ESTJ issues. The only way I know how to talk people down, who are angry at ESTJs but especially that one difficult ESTJ in their life, is to deal with the issue without dealing with the rest of the background noise. That's probably another prime example of Te.

Not to mention, I know how it is to feel that way -- I've probably posted similar things about INFJs in the past, because of all the various INFJ struggles I've had (with two roommates, one former boss, and my mother, to name a few).

anyone wanna guess how I unintentionally guilt trip people?

!

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

By my personal and anecdotal evidence - which will hold up in a court of law - ESFJ.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Mostly doubting that he was lying about being sad, but also that he wouldn't feel anything at all after making a little kid cry. But if everything you're saying about him is true, then type-related concerns are like 5% of his problems. In fact, typology is probably useless to you, when it comes to figuring him out, if he's that messed up.

I had to leave the room so as to not get on his ass. He just went to read the New Testament, a slight smile on his face.

When I was a kid, he used that phrase constantly and never showed emotion and I never felt any emotion with it. I always felt bad until my older sibs introduced me to the concept of dad's guilt trips. His guilt trips always felt empty as a kid and far, far worse now.

I suspect he largely copied his mother, who was much gentler as a grandmother than a mother....

 

[EJCC]

I had to leave the room so as to not get on his ass. He just went to read the New Testament, a slight smile on his face.

When I was a kid, he used that phrase constantly and never showed emotion and I never felt any emotion with it. I always felt bad until my older sibs introduced me to the concept of dad's guilt trips. His guilt trips always felt empty as a kid and far, far worse now.

I suspect he largely copied his mother, who was much gentler as a grandmother than a mother....

He sounds like a lovely man.

Yeah, I stick with my previous assessment. No point in using typology on that asshole.

 

[miss fortune]

Oh it's not that -- I'm pretty grumpy. It's more that I'm so incredibly used to that approach, on the forum, when it comes to ESTJ issues. The only way I know how to talk people down, who are angry at ESTJs but especially that one difficult ESTJ in their life, is to deal with the issue without dealing with the rest of the background noise. That's probably another prime example of Te.

Not to mention, I know how it is to feel that way -- I've probably posted similar things about INFJs in the past, because of all the various INFJ struggles I've had (with two roommates, one former boss, and my mother, to name a few).


!

I can understand that... apparently I should be a dumb slut who enjoys cheating and picking on people

I suppose we all have our different ways of dealing with that though... Impressed by yours!

 

[EJCC]

I can understand that... apparently I should be a dumb slut who enjoys cheating and picking on people

On a related note... how's work as a used car salesman?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

it seems as though your anger at him came across in your manner of questioning and drawing a comparison with EJCC, whether intended or otherwise

Yeah, no intent to draw a comparison to EJCC (and my dad is a ISTJ anyway), and I put in the nice, sensitive language first

But, yeah, a lifetime of his guilt trips and I have never felt an ounce of sadness from him when he says it (and I do pick up a lot of emotions from him other times, so he isn't completely unemotional....just mostly)

 

[SearchingforPeace]

He sounds like a lovely man.

Yeah, I stick with my previous assessment. No point in using typology on that asshole.

Yeah, and my wife acts like he is a saint..... frustrating as all hell.....

 

[miss fortune]

On a related note... how's work as a used car salesman?

it's going so well that I only pimp on weekends for fun now

Yeah, no intent to draw a comparison to EJCC (and my dad is a ISTJ anyway), and I put in the nice, sensitive language first

But, yeah, a lifetime of his guilt trips and I have never felt an ounce of sadness from him when he says it (and I do pick up a lot of emotions from him other times, so he isn't completely unemotional....just mostly)

my brain read the same type comment and the bank of questions as a form of accusation, as that is the general format of such things

and there are fucked up and unpleasant people of every type, unfortunately

 

[rmrf]

In my experience, INFJs do it a lot like in third person. They are great at making you see the other person's perspective and feel bad for how your actions may have affected a third party. They have a contagious empathy.

In terms of explicit 'guilt tripping', ENFPs can do it a lot, and no disrespect to the ENFPs out there, but they can be real brats but I haven't known that many of them.

What's hilarious is seeing INTJs attempt to guilt trip in a passive aggressive context. I've seen it a few times and it comes across as vary transparent, disingenuous, and unconvincing.